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Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 5:00:20 GMT -5
I always liked Vision and Human Torch not being the same character - for one thing, it means that the awesome Jim Hammond Human Torch can be around again in the present alongside Vision. As I said before, it was later established that Vision was the original Torch, he was simply a temporally divergent version, which is why the two characters can now co-exist. |
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 5:08:43 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 5:08:43 GMT -5
Bad Idea and Worse Execution: America vs. the Justice SocietyBad: Krypton was a cold, angular, forbidding planet. Bad: The Kents get younger.
I don't really see why any of these are "bad". I loved America vs. the Justice Society, and still do. And I think Byrne's retcon of Superman was probably the best thing that ever happened to the character; pretty much everything about him prior to 1986 I just found ridiculous, including the very 1950s B movie depiction of Krypton. Byrne's version was believable. |
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 5:11:42 GMT -5
OK,
Bad: Spider-Man: Chapter One (mercifully, Marvel seem to agree, and have quietly forgotten it)
Good: Dum Dum Dugan has been an LMD since 1968 (it never made sense that he didn't seem to have aged since the 1940s)
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 6:05:14 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by coinilius on Aug 21, 2016 6:05:14 GMT -5
I always liked Vision and Human Torch not being the same character - for one thing, it means that the awesome Jim Hammond Human Torch can be around again in the present alongside Vision. As I said before, it was later established that Vision was the original Torch, he was simply a temporally divergent version, which is why the two characters can now co-exist. Yeah that is actually a retcon that I didn't like - the original was handled well, IMO, while that just felt like too much. A lot of it just comes down to personal preference, and the Vision/Human Torch for me was better when they were revelled to be seperate and no time twisting shenanigans were involved. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 21, 2016 8:45:55 GMT -5
As I said before, it was later established that Vision was the original Torch, he was simply a temporally divergent version, which is why the two characters can now co-exist. Yeah that is actually a retcon that I didn't like - the original was handled well, IMO, while that just felt like too much. A lot of it just comes down to personal preference, and the Vision/Human Torch for me was better when they were revelled to be seperate and no time twisting shenanigans were involved. O.K., I'm lost... What I know of the Vision / Human Torch situation is as follows : - Vision is retconned into being the original Human Torch, remade by Pr. Horton under the command of Ultron. - Vision is further retconned by John Byrne into having been built from the Human Torch's spare parts, and not from the Torch himself. - Vision and the Torch are further retconned again into being the same being, split by "time twisting shenanigans" (I love that term, coinilius!) during Avengers Forever. Is that how it still stands? |
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Post by coinilius on Aug 21, 2016 8:55:44 GMT -5
Yep, as far as I know that is how the Vision/Human Torch situation currently stands - not including the Vision being destroyed in Avengers Disassembled and rebuilt as sort of a new person or something so he could hang with the Young Avengers and Human Torch being destroyed and coming back as well... Not sure if there is anything else that has happened to the two characters that have changed their timeline/construction/backstory.
I believe Roy Thomas intended the Vision to be made from a second Horton android, not the original Human Torch - he had an Adam II in an issue of What If? Also I think the Geoff Johns Vision mini-series from the early 2000's might have mangled things a bit more too, but I never read it...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 21, 2016 9:01:47 GMT -5
OK, Bad: Spider-Man: Chapter One (mercifully, Marvel seem to agree, and have quietly forgotten it) Good: Dum Dum Dugan has been an LMD since 1968 (it never made sense that he didn't seem to have aged since the 1940s) As I explained (all right... as I whined about) in another thread, that retcon might solve an apparent problem (Dum-dum looking amazingly young for a WWII veteran), but it creates as many problems as it solves. Mostly, it's because of the Nick Fury vs SHIELD maxi-series which was a big deal in being the first time the organization was shown to be a sham and had to be shut down. (Now it happens every other week, but that's a problem for another day). In that series, the plot hangs on the key members of the organization being replaced by LMDs. That plot ceases to make sense if the originals were themselves LMDs. It also makes no sense for Fury to agonize over Dum-Dum's "death" at the start of the '90s Nick Fury series, or to be overjoyed at his return (as a prisoner of the Yellow Claw) if he was an LMD all along. Why not just decant another instead of brooding and moaning? Much better, in my opinion, to explain Dum-Dum's longevity by explaining that in some as yet untold adventure, key members of SHIELD were exposed to some longevity inducing process. They're a dime a dozen in the Marvel universe. "Such and such was a robot almost all along" is one of my least favourite revelations in that never-ending soap opera that is the Marvel Universe history. It applies to Dum-Dum, to Nick Fury, to the Yellow Claw, to Dr. Doom... |
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Post by coinilius on Aug 21, 2016 9:07:00 GMT -5
i kind of figured that Dum Dum had taken some of that same anti-aging serum that Nick Fury had supposed to have been exposed to...
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 9:43:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 9:43:32 GMT -5
In past history of this forum - I was told that Amazing Man was not a Golden Age Character but a Silver Age Character instead being a member of the All-Star Squadron. The problem with me I get frustrated when I was told by a fellow reader and/or a member of this forum that this story is a retcon. It's makes me mad and that alone makes me cry because it's not following any script and/or continuity. The older I get - I stay away from Imaginary Stories that's often retcon itself and that's not good for me at all. So, right now I'm sticking with stories that keeps the continuity alive and well. How is adding something to continuity not "following" continuity or keeping it alive and well? Amazing Man was really Bronze Age rather than Silver Age, by the way. You're right ... I wasn't thinking at first. |
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 10:06:26 GMT -5
Post by Cei-U! on Aug 21, 2016 10:06:26 GMT -5
Regarding Amazing-Man: There was indeed a Golden Age hero of that name. Created by Bill Everett, the character headlined his own Centaur title for years. Roy Thomas recycled the name for Earth-Two's first African-American super-hero as a tribute to Everett, his late friend and former roommate (just as he and Gil Kane had earlier recycled the 1940s hero's origin for Iron Fist). Since the Centaur characters had long since lapsed into public domain, there were no legal or financial repercussions to reusing the name.
Cei-U!
I summon the retread!
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 10:31:11 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 10:31:11 GMT -5
Yep, as far as I know that is how the Vision/Human Torch situation currently stands - not including the Vision being destroyed in Avengers Disassembled and rebuilt as sort of a new person or something so he could hang with the Young Avengers and Human Torch being destroyed and coming back as well... Not sure if there is anything else that has happened to the two characters that have changed their timeline/construction/backstory. I believe Roy Thomas intended the Vision to be made from a second Horton android, not the original Human Torch - he had an Adam II in an issue of What If? Also I think the Geoff Johns Vision mini-series from the early 2000's might have mangled things a bit more too, but I never read it... More or less right, except that the Vision from the Young Avengers was a completely separate android, created from a copy of the original Vision's operating system installed into Iron Lad's armour. He was later destroyed by Dr. Doom, but the original has since returned, having spent a couple of years in a packing crate in a warehouse owned by Tony Stark. The Human Torch is still around and is now a SHIELD agent. |
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 10:39:48 GMT -5
OK, Bad: Spider-Man: Chapter One (mercifully, Marvel seem to agree, and have quietly forgotten it) Good: Dum Dum Dugan has been an LMD since 1968 (it never made sense that he didn't seem to have aged since the 1940s) As I explained (all right... as I whined about) in another thread, that retcon might solve an apparent problem (Dum-dum looking amazingly young for a WWII veteran), but it creates as many problems as it solves. Mostly, it's because of the Nick Fury vs SHIELD maxi-series which was a big deal in being the first time the organization was shown to be a sham and had to be shut down. (Now it happens every other week, but that's a problem for another day). In that series, the plot hangs on the key members of the organization being replaced by LMDs. That plot ceases to make sense if the originals were themselves LMDs. It also makes no sense for Fury to agonize over Dum-Dum's "death" at the start of the '90s Nick Fury series, or to be overjoyed at his return (as a prisoner of the Yellow Claw) if he was an LMD all along. Why not just decant another instead of brooding and moaning? Much better, in my opinion, to explain Dum-Dum's longevity by explaining that in some as yet untold adventure, key members of SHIELD were exposed to some longevity inducing process. They're a dime a dozen in the Marvel universe. "Such and such was a robot almost all along" is one of my least favourite revelations in that never-ending soap opera that is the Marvel Universe history. It applies to Dum-Dum, to Nick Fury, to the Yellow Claw, to Dr. Doom... To be fair, the Dugan LMD was/is not quite the same as all the others; it was built from alien technology, was pretty much indistinguishable from a human being even under the most rigorous scans, and its consciousness was as close to being Tim Dugan's as it was possible to get, so Fury may not have been able to restore it/him at that time. Dugan's staus now is rather more complicated-his mind is apparently now stored in an undisclosed location and automatically beamed into one of possibly a couple of hundred spare bodies which Fury has stashed in hidden locations all over the world if his current body is destroyed. I would imagine this is a failsafe procedure which Fury implemented after the Yellow Claw incident. There's also been no indication given that any of the other agents were LMDs to start with, and since the majority of the Howling Commandos are now dead, I guess Marvel no longer see that as a problem. |
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 10:40:51 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 10:40:51 GMT -5
i kind of figured that Dum Dum had taken some of that same anti-aging serum that Nick Fury had supposed to have been exposed to... That's what Dum Dum thought, too. Until recently, he didn't know he wasn't human. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 21, 2016 12:26:33 GMT -5
Yep, as far as I know that is how the Vision/Human Torch situation currently stands - not including the Vision being destroyed in Avengers Disassembled and rebuilt as sort of a new person or something so he could hang with the Young Avengers and Human Torch being destroyed and coming back as well... Not sure if there is anything else that has happened to the two characters that have changed their timeline/construction/backstory. I believe Roy Thomas intended the Vision to be made from a second Horton android, not the original Human Torch - he had an Adam II in an issue of What If? Also I think the Geoff Johns Vision mini-series from the early 2000's might have mangled things a bit more too, but I never read it... More or less right, except that the Vision from the Young Avengers was a completely separate android, created from a copy of the original Vision's operating system installed into Iron Lad's armour. He was later destroyed by Dr. Doom, but the original has since returned, having spent a couple of years in a packing crate in a warehouse owned by Tony Stark. The Human Torch is still around and is now a SHIELD agent. I disliked the idea of the New Vision, but I wish Iron Lad had stayed around. Just like the rest of the Young Avengers, he brought a certain feeling of renewal mixed with continuity to the Marvel Universe. (Just what the new Nova should have been, had he been introduced as "Kid Nova" and allowed to grow on us, instead of being shoved down our throats complete with a re-writing of the history of the Nova corps. But that's the grumpy old fan talking). |
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Post by chadwilliam on Aug 21, 2016 13:16:31 GMT -5
I always liked the idea that Alfred was there for young Bruce Wayne.
I've mentioned before that this was a change that actually served a positive function for Alfred - it gave him a wit that would have been improper had he not been a member of the Wayne household since Bruce's childhood. As a potential employee who showed up on the doorstep of Wayne Manor after Bruce Wayne had grown to adulthood, it wouldn't have felt right for him to make the occasional sarcastic comment about his employer's nighttime proclivities since no "Gentleman's Gentleman" would ever be so forward with his employer. As a member of the family however, he's allowed that leeway.
BUT...
One of the problems I have with the modern Batman is that he's so one-dimensional. If an activity, idea, thought, interest has nothing to do with being Batman, then Bruce Wayne doesn't possess it. Hobbies? Batman doesn't need them. Romance? Oh you mean pretending to like someone to keep up the playboy act, right? Have a conversation with someone? "My parents are dead" and "Gotham is MY city" doesn't count. Knowing how to tie a tie, run Wayne Enterprises, cook? Nope, nope, nope. The guy's great at his job but brain dead outside of it and I think the current terms of his relationship with Alfred is part of the problem.
Had Don Cameron's origin for Alfred been left intact (arriving on the scene a few years after Bruce Wayne became Batman), today's writers would be forced to write Bruce Wayne as someone who is at least partially competent, independent, realistic. I mean, this would still be a guy capable of making Dick Grayson his ward, of running his business, of arranging his own dates, etc. Nowadays (well, when I last followed Batman maybe 10 plus years ago) Batman is more man-child than adult, someone who delegates all his grown up responsibilities to actual adults whether they be Alfred, Lucius Fox, or even Dick Grayson in those instances where someone has to apologize for Batman's petulance during times of crisis. And I think the problem all started with this retcon (which I first noticed not in Dark Knight Returns or Year One, but in an episode of Super Friends Galactic Guardians back in 1985 or so).
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