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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 23, 2016 21:25:24 GMT -5
I really don't think every hero needs a tragedy somewhere in their past to help define them. It's a lazy, cliched idea which has now become so overused that it's deeply tiresome. And yet Superman and Batman's origins date back almost 80 years. If that type of origin for super-heroes is tiresome, then blame the ones that came after, not the early ones
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 23, 2016 21:34:30 GMT -5
I maintain that the death of the Kents was necessary for Clark to learn his limitations, that no matter how powerful Superman may be there are some things--like time and death--greater than himself. It's a perspective that a mature hero sorely needs. Cei-U! I summon my two pfennigs' worth! I really don't think every hero needs a tragedy somewhere in their past to help define them. It's a lazy, cliched idea which has now become so overused that it's deeply tiresome. Not a Geoff Johns fan, eh?
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Aug 24, 2016 1:13:42 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 24, 2016 1:13:42 GMT -5
I really don't think every hero needs a tragedy somewhere in their past to help define them. It's a lazy, cliched idea which has now become so overused that it's deeply tiresome. Not a Geoff Johns fan, eh? I think you are fairly safe in that assumption.
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Aug 24, 2016 1:31:46 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 24, 2016 1:31:46 GMT -5
This makes me think of the "Burglar" in Spider-man's origin. My memory and knowledge of Spidey's mythos are not vast enough to answer these questions: Was he caught? Was he more than an anonymous burglar? Was he ret-conned into someone we all knew?
Actually, your knowledge of Batman's past seems vast enough that you do know the circumstances behind the Burgler's capture even if you don't realize it. Spider-Man caught up with him in Amazing Spider-Man 200 and in a sequence lazily ripped off from Batman 47, confronts the criminal (who we learn was at the Parker house in Amazing Fantasy 15 because he was searching for hidden treasure) who pleads to know why the wall crawler cares so much about Ben Parker. "I care, because Ben Parker (pulls off mask) was my Uncle!" The Burgler dies then and there. I can't believe that for such a momentous event, Marvel simply decided that "aw to hell with it, let's just cut and paste what happened with Batman and Joe Chill for our anniversary tale".
In fact, Spidey originally caught up with the burglar (whose name was later revealed to be Dennis Carradine) in the final panels of AF #15 itself, and it was the revelation that he was the guy he'd failed to stop earlier at the TV studio that caused Peter to become a crimefighter. His later rematch with Spidey in ASM #200 happened after he got out of jail. I can't believe both of you seem to have somehow forgotten such a significant chunk of Spidey's origin!
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Aug 24, 2016 8:27:26 GMT -5
Post by Prince Hal on Aug 24, 2016 8:27:26 GMT -5
Actually, your knowledge of Batman's past seems vast enough that you do know the circumstances behind the Burgler's capture even if you don't realize it. Spider-Man caught up with him in Amazing Spider-Man 200 and in a sequence lazily ripped off from Batman 47, confronts the criminal (who we learn was at the Parker house in Amazing Fantasy 15 because he was searching for hidden treasure) who pleads to know why the wall crawler cares so much about Ben Parker. "I care, because Ben Parker (pulls off mask) was my Uncle!" The Burgler dies then and there. I can't believe that for such a momentous event, Marvel simply decided that "aw to hell with it, let's just cut and paste what happened with Batman and Joe Chill for our anniversary tale".
In fact, Spidey originally caught up with the burglar (whose name was later revealed to be Dennis Carradine) in the final panels of AF #15 itself, and it was the revelation that he was the guy he'd failed to stop earlier at the TV studio that caused Peter to become a crimefighter. His later rematch with Spidey in ASM #200 happened after he got out of jail. I can't believe both of you seem to have somehow forgotten such a significant chunk of Spidey's origin! Speaking for chadwilliam, I think we both were well aware of that O. Henry irony from the frirst story. I was speaking about him in the context of this thread, which is, as you'll recall, "ret-cons." (Sorry if I lost you with the O. Henry reference.)
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Aug 24, 2016 10:29:29 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 24, 2016 10:29:29 GMT -5
In fact, Spidey originally caught up with the burglar (whose name was later revealed to be Dennis Carradine) in the final panels of AF #15 itself, and it was the revelation that he was the guy he'd failed to stop earlier at the TV studio that caused Peter to become a crimefighter. His later rematch with Spidey in ASM #200 happened after he got out of jail. I can't believe both of you seem to have somehow forgotten such a significant chunk of Spidey's origin! Speaking for chadwilliam, I think we both were well aware of that O. Henry irony from the frirst story. I was speaking about him in the context of this thread, which is, as you'll recall, "ret-cons." (Sorry if I lost you with the O. Henry reference.) You did. I had to look him up on wikipedia...
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Aug 24, 2016 11:06:37 GMT -5
Post by Prince Hal on Aug 24, 2016 11:06:37 GMT -5
Speaking for chadwilliam, I think we both were well aware of that O. Henry irony from the frirst story. I was speaking about him in the context of this thread, which is, as you'll recall, "ret-cons." (Sorry if I lost you with the O. Henry reference.) You did. I had to look him up on wikipedia... There you go. Well done, lad!
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Aug 28, 2016 21:01:42 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Aug 28, 2016 21:01:42 GMT -5
The Post-Crisis Kents were still married for years before Clark came along (long enough to have a couple miscarriages, as seen in the World of Smallville mini), they were ust young enough to still be around as supporting characters for adult Clark. I think this squares with the Silver Age Kents, who were older when they found Kal-El, yes, but were alive as he was on the threshold of manhood and leaving Smallville for Metropolis U. Had it not been for the plague they contracted on their trip into the past, all indications suggested that they would have been around, for a while, anyway. [all emphasis mine] From 1980... As for this - "Had it not been for the plague they contracted on their trip into the past, all indications suggested that they would have been around, for a while, anyway." - that was covered in 1978... I don't know if that was established prior to this story or was first mentioned here. Either way, however, the Kents still wouldn't live to see their son grow up even if they hadn't become ill.
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Aug 28, 2016 21:02:55 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Aug 28, 2016 21:02:55 GMT -5
Well, it seems some extended quotage and a few bits of emphasis didn't come through somehow. Still learning how this thing works.
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Aug 28, 2016 21:22:52 GMT -5
Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 28, 2016 21:22:52 GMT -5
This reminds me of something that had always bothered me about the 1950s Adventures Of Superman show with George Reeves
The origin episode shows Eben and Sara Kent (why they changed the names, who knows) adopting and caring for Clark on their farm. Eben suffers a heart attack and dies. Shortly after Clark packs his bags, kisses his mom a tearful goodbye and takes off for Metropolis.
For the next 7 years of the show, Clark's mother is never mentioned. He never calls, never writes, never visits, never sends money, nothing. A poor widowed old lady left alone on a farm. That's not the American way that I know of. Supes goes out of his way to help Chuck Connor and his mule deliver a pie to someone in Alaska. Or help Professor Pepperwinkle with his nutty inventions. But zilch for his sweet old mother. Bah
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Aug 28, 2016 22:15:28 GMT -5
MDG likes this
Post by Prince Hal on Aug 28, 2016 22:15:28 GMT -5
I think this squares with the Silver Age Kents, who were older when they found Kal-El, yes, but were alive as he was on the threshold of manhood and leaving Smallville for Metropolis U. Had it not been for the plague they contracted on their trip into the past, all indications suggested that they would have been around, for a while, anyway. [all emphasis mine] As for this - "Had it not been for the plague they contracted on their trip into the past, all indications suggested that they would have been around, for a while, anyway." - that was covered in 1978... I don't know if that was established prior to this story or was first mentioned here. Either way, however, the Kents still wouldn't live to see their son grow up even if they hadn't become ill.Not sure I get why. No need to answer, chris, but thanks for posting this. It reaffirms the wisdom of my decision to stop reading Superman several years previously. If I hear another comics fan talk about how superior the Bronze Age was to the Silver, this will be Exhibit A to the contrary. Kobra? Really? Talk about a D-list villain. And why are only the first "S" sounds in his words hissed? This had to have been the work of a fan-turned-writer who couldn't just leave well enough alone. (Checking) Surprise! It's Cary Bates, he of the Dickensian (in length) and Bulwer-Lytonian (in dullness) "Trial of the Flash" who came up with this horrible goulash.
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Aug 28, 2016 23:13:45 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Aug 28, 2016 23:13:45 GMT -5
As for this - "Had it not been for the plague they contracted on their trip into the past, all indications suggested that they would have been around, for a while, anyway." - that was covered in 1978... I don't know if that was established prior to this story or was first mentioned here. Either way, however, the Kents still wouldn't live to see their son grow up even if they hadn't become ill.Not sure I get why. No need to answer, chris, but thanks for posting this. It reaffirms the wisdom of my decision to stop reading Superman several years previously. If I hear another comics fan talk about how superior the Bronze Age was to the Silver, this will be Exhibit A to the contrary. Kobra? Really? Talk about a D-list villain. And why are only the first "S" sounds in his words hissed? This had to have been the work of a fan-turned-writer who couldn't just leave well enough alone. (Checking) Surprise! It's Cary Bates, he of the Dickensian (in length) and Bulwer-Lytonian (in dullness) "Trial of the Flash" who came up with this horrible goulash. Not sure you get why the Kents wouldn't have seen their son grow up even if they hadn't gotten sick? Because the youth serum was wearing off and they quickly got old again. Or did you mean something else? Not sure where you saw Cary Bates listed as writer, but page 1 of the story lists Martin Pasko as the writer. Also, it's hard to say whether Pasko came up with the entire story himself, or editor Julius Schwartz got him to write it. Three issues after this one was the infamous story that explained how Superman fools people with a pair of glasses - the Kryptonian glass in the lenses magnifies his super-hypnotism power, so he subconsciously forces everyone to see Clark Kent as frail and delicate (now that's a retcon!). A fan sent that idea to Schwartz, who liked it, so he told Pasko to write it. Pasko didn't like it but wasn't going to turn down a paying job. "And why are only the first "S" sounds in his words hissed?" Exaggerating every "s" in his dialogue would eat up valuable real estate on the page that needed to go to other dialogue. Or something. Side note: Funny you say "surprise" about Bates. He was often called "Mr. Surprise" in the letter columns. Perhaps some day I should do a review of the Trial of the Flash. The full year spent building up to it was utter garbage, but once the trial actually started, things got wild.
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Aug 28, 2016 23:41:18 GMT -5
Post by chadwilliam on Aug 28, 2016 23:41:18 GMT -5
By writing The Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent Cary Bates made a contribution to all those Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told volumes yet to be published that can never be overestimated and yet there's the matter of what he did to Luthor in 1983...
In 1963, Edmond Hamilton introduced readers to a more nuanced Lex Luthor by forcing the character to choose between killing Superman in front of an adoring crowd or intentionally allowing himself to fail at this scheme so that he could save a doomed planet. Luthor choose to act selflessly and heroically for perhaps the first time in his life and was rewarded with having the planet Lexor named in his honour. Here, Luthor was a hero - he had used Superman to bring a dying civilization water and had presumably restored much of the scientific knowledge to a civilization that had been reduced to the lowest rungs of any dark age. Lexor was the one place in the universe where Luthor acted honorably at all times - the people of this planet may as well have been his children.
Now Lexor only appeared about a half dozen times or so during the 1960's, but it ushered in a Luthor who possessed a certain code of ethics. Not all the time of course, but there are a number of stories throughout the 1970's and 1980's in which we learned that there were limits to how far Luthor was willing to go with his plans. In one of Elliot S! Maggin's novels for instance, Luthor prevented Superman's soul from falling into the hands of the Devil because in spite of Luthor's hatred for the Man of Steel, he felt that even his worst enemy didn't deserve an eternity of torment. Luthor never told Superman what he did for him nor did he expect anything in return for his good deed, it was simply a line he would not cross.
Maggin championed this new Luthor and even established that not only was there was a time in Luthor's life when the world's greatest supervillain had come close to deciding to use his genius only to help the world, but that Luthor would likely redeem himself in the future (interestingly, this is how Maggin created LexCorp about a year before John Byrne took over). There's a great deal of richness then, from about 1963-1983 and then Cary Bates changed all that...
In Action Comics 544 Bates introduced the New Luthor (the Green Powersuited guy). Without warning, explanation, or even follow up details, Bates decided to have Luthor spontaneously decide to turn on the planet Lexor. I suppose the only reason Lexor was reintroduced after disappearing from the texts sometime during the late 1960s was because Bates knew what it symbolized. Here - again no warning, no hint, nothing - Luthor dons his new powersuit, goes out at night, steals various pieces of equipment simply out of habit and when caught, begins screaming about how much he always thought of Lexorians as nothing more than insects. Soon after, Luthor accidentally destroys the planet and becomes "More Evil Than Ever!!!" or in Bates-speak "Same guy as before without nuance or depth and cranked up to eleven!"
I get that characters are changed every so often for whatever reason, but why is it so hard for writers to exact these changes without contradicting the best of what's come before?
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Aug 28, 2016 23:44:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 23:44:02 GMT -5
Well, it seems some extended quotage and a few bits of emphasis didn't come through somehow. Still learning how this thing works. When quoting someone on proboards, it is usually easier if you work on the BBCode tab rather than preview tab-click at bottom of the message box here on BBCode to get there)-it is much easier to see and keep quoted material i the box and new material you are posting outside of it. If you go to the settings section when you update your profile, you can make the BBCode the default setting rather than preview). It is also easier in BBCode if you want to trim out parts of codded messages or alter the code to break up the quoted material and respond with new material to smaller sections of it between quoted blocks. Proboards is a beast unto itself, getting used to operating in it can take some adjustment if you are unfamiliar with it, but it gets much easier much faster and can become almost second nature (especially once you abandon Preview mode for the BBcode mode). -M
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Aug 28, 2016 23:52:53 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Aug 28, 2016 23:52:53 GMT -5
Thanks.
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