shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 8:21:59 GMT -5
 Len Wein's Swamp Thing or Steve Gerber's Man-Thing?The two monsters came on the scene at almost the exact same time and with almost the exact same origin, and both receive tremendous amounts of praise to this day, but (inevitably), you fall into one camp or another. I'd like to know which and why. Gerber did not create Man-Thing, Wein's was ultimately not Swamp Thing's most iconic run, and some would argue it was the artists who mattered more than either writer, but I thought the easiest way to compare the two basic premises/approaches was to look at their initial mainstream runs. |
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 8:30:56 GMT -5
My own personal take:
First off, though Roy Thomas claims Len Wein inadvertently stole the idea from Gerry Conway, let's be honest in that neither origin story is particularly compelling, and both premises are derivative of The Heap. So I don't really care which company invented what. I'd rather look at where both premises went after their initial generic appearances.
Man-Thing evolved into something exceptionally compelling, from my stand-point. Telling the story from the point of view of a tragic being with no intelligence whatsoever, motivated entirely by its empathic responses to human emotion, the "whoever knows fear burns at the touch of the Man-Thing" bit, its connection to the swamp it came from (which, several times, is said to be the center of the universe on some weirdly cosmic level), and it's ability to waver between telling grounded social message stories and fantastic but somehow believable escapist fantasy tales, all make this series an utter treat for me.
Swamp Thing feels generic in every respect. Wein's narrative style is ambitiously prosey, but the character and premises themselves feel anything but inventive. How does Swamp Thing keep randomly running into aliens, demons about to conquer the universe, and towns made entirely of robots, just by random chance, and what feeling do we get for his character or struggle as a result of these encounters? Nothing really. He wants to be human again and misses his wife. That's it.
The one true strength of Wein's Swamp Thing isn't Wein; it's Bernie Wrightson penciling, inking, AND coloring on many occasions, and there are times his art is rip-the-page-out-of-the-damn-book-and-plaster-it-to-your-wall good, but I also hate his boring restrained panel arrangements that keep the visuals contained and unambitious, regardless of their quality. Plus Morrow, Buckler, Ploog, and Sutton do a pretty decent job on Man-Thing themselves.
So I guess, for me, I struggle with seeing Swamp Thing's appeal. Is it just Wrightson and retrospect after reading Alan Moore's later run?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 8:42:19 GMT -5
Honestly I never got the appeal of either character. I only read them when they were a co star in a team up title.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 25, 2016 9:34:53 GMT -5
I tend to go with Swamp-Thing because there's some personality there you can latch onto where as Man-Thing ,while perhaps better as a pure horror character, doesn't allow for that ability to empathize with him so I can only read an issue or two in a stretch before it starts to feel like too much of the same. Both are pretty fun though and I love it when either one shows up.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 9:38:20 GMT -5
I tend to go with Swamp-Thing because there's some personality there you can latch onto where as Man-Thing ,while perhaps better as a pure horror character, doesn't allow for that ability to empathize with him so I can only read an issue or two in a stretch before it starts to feel like too much of the same. Both are pretty fun though and I love it when either one shows up. Interesting you should say that, as Man-Thing's simplicity makes him far easier to empathize with, from my perspective. He is an innocent housed in a hulking body: pure emotion without any complex thought attached to it. And sometimes that makes him terrifying and unpredictable too, depending upon which point of view Gerber chooses to have us view from. Swamp Thing just strikes me as a cliche -- wronged man working to set things right. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 25, 2016 9:57:09 GMT -5
I don't know if I could accurately say Wein vs Gerber as much as ST vs MT in general. I have only two Giant Size and four volume 1 issues. I have all of the second and fourth volume of Man-Thing. Plus I am partial to Wein over Moore on Swamp Thing. Roots was also a good Swamp Thing story.
I'd probably give the edge to Swamp Thing for Wrightson's art. He's a perfect match for the character and the stories Wein wrote. While Man-Thing had good artists like Bucema, Alcala in Giant Size and Ploog in part of the series, I'd liked consistency in the art more. Too me it's more important in a horror or mood setting book than in some random superhero series. But as I said I have a small sampling of Gerber's MT so I don't have as much to go on.
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Post by rom on Sept 25, 2016 10:11:24 GMT -5
Actually, I like both Gerber's Swamp Thing & Wein's Man Thing. Been a big fan of both series for years. However, I would have to vote for Swamp Thing - primarily because of Wrightson's incredible artwork. Granted, Gerber's Man Thing had great artwork by Mike Ploog & Alfredo Alcala in some issues, but overall Wrightson's run was better because he consistently drew the first storyline. Whereas the art on Man Thing was inconsistent; some issues had great art, while others had sub-par art.
Also, the Wrightson/Wein storyline(s) had more horrific/grotesque elements, which made it seem much more like a horror comic.
As far as the stories themselves - yes, they both had similar origins; but, Swamp Thing was a little more interesting in that he retained the intelligence of his human mind - even after he became the Swamp Thing.
Conversely, Man Thing was fairly mindless & more of an observer of the actions around him. While he did react at times, the stories in each issue were not his stories, but were focused on other characters. So, he's wasn't really that much of a protagonist.
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 25, 2016 10:13:05 GMT -5
Man-Thing for me. I think Steve Gerber was one of the best writers of the Bronze Age, and Man-Thing probably his best work out of a lot of great work. Swamp Thing, by contrast, always struck me as a pretty generic character until Moore got hold of him.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 10:53:29 GMT -5
Also, the Wrightson/Wein storyline(s) had more horrific/grotesque elements, which made it seem much more like a horror comic. . Good point. I know it wasn't the DC style, but I've wondered if Wrightson didn't conceive of these plots, as they seemed more driven by tone and visuals than by good storytelling principals. Gerber's Man-Thing was more story driven, but it often lost that horror tone as a result. I always found that the most fascinating part. How do you tell the story of a creature with no thoughts? Gerber had to let other characters take the more dominent roles in each story, but the Man Thing was always still the center of the story by the close, and he was usually our primary emotional link with the story as well. We, as humans, are always emotionally attracted to child-like simpletons who feel but cannot explain, after all. |
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Post by Warmonger on Sept 25, 2016 10:59:44 GMT -5
I think Swamp Thing as a character under Wein was more compelling than Man-Thing under Gerber...but I just LOVE the wacky stories that Gerber would come up with.
Edge to Man-Thing
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 25, 2016 11:15:47 GMT -5
I tend to go with Swamp-Thing because there's some personality there you can latch onto where as Man-Thing ,while perhaps better as a pure horror character, doesn't allow for that ability to empathize with him so I can only read an issue or two in a stretch before it starts to feel like too much of the same. Both are pretty fun though and I love it when either one shows up. Interesting you should say that, as Man-Thing's simplicity makes him far easier to empathize with, from my perspective. He is an innocent housed in a hulking body: pure emotion without any complex thought attached to it. And sometimes that makes him terrifying and unpredictable too, depending upon which point of view Gerber chooses to have us view from. Swamp Thing just strikes me as a cliche -- wronged man working to set things right. It's certainly easy to empathize with the situation but there isn't anything to him personally to really sustain my interest in the long haul. The use of perspective certainly makes Man-Thing the more interesting book from a structural stand point but without a real concrete central protagonist I find that the issues tend to blend into each other so in the long run I think Swamp-Thing wins out for me just because his personality makes the issues stand out and you can see him grow as a character. To put it another way, if you were to pose this as issue #X of Gerber's Man-Thing vs. issue #Y of Wein's Swamp-Thing I think I'd be inclined to say that I'd most likely give the win to Man-Thing no matter the selected values for X and Y the majority of the time but when viewed as a whole rather than on the individual basis I go the other way because you can really build on a character like Swamp-Thing over time where as Man-Thing is more or less consistently the same every time he appears. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 11:23:18 GMT -5
Both are great titles and done with flair and distinction and I have to give the edge to Len Wein's Swamp Thing because the art is superior and the stories are done with great taste and all; the Man-Thing is a classic but I did not really embrace it when I first read it and because of that I felt that the character a little too bizarre for my taste.
Voted for Len Wein's Swamp Thing ...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 12:57:41 GMT -5
Interesting you should say that, as Man-Thing's simplicity makes him far easier to empathize with, from my perspective. He is an innocent housed in a hulking body: pure emotion without any complex thought attached to it. And sometimes that makes him terrifying and unpredictable too, depending upon which point of view Gerber chooses to have us view from. Swamp Thing just strikes me as a cliche -- wronged man working to set things right. It's certainly easy to empathize with the situation but there isn't anything to him personally to really sustain my interest in the long haul. The use of perspective certainly makes Man-Thing the more interesting book from a structural stand point but without a real concrete central protagonist I find that the issues tend to blend into each other so in the long run I think Swamp-Thing wins out for me just because his personality makes the issues stand out and you can see him grow as a character. To put it another way, if you were to pose this as issue #X of Gerber's Man-Thing vs. issue #Y of Wein's Swamp-Thing I think I'd be inclined to say that I'd most likely give the win to Man-Thing no matter the selected values for X and Y the majority of the time but when viewed as a whole rather than on the individual basis I go the other way because you can really build on a character like Swamp-Thing over time where as Man-Thing is more or less consistently the same every time he appears. From a theoretical standpoint, I see what you're saying, but in actual execution, the original Swamp Thing was a stagnant character who did not undergo any kind of progression. Meanwhile, Gerber got around this problem by progressing both the supporting cast and the town of Citrusville as a whole. Come to think of it, Wein did this too with Matt Cable. But not with Swamp Thing himself. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 25, 2016 13:22:37 GMT -5
It's certainly easy to empathize with the situation but there isn't anything to him personally to really sustain my interest in the long haul. The use of perspective certainly makes Man-Thing the more interesting book from a structural stand point but without a real concrete central protagonist I find that the issues tend to blend into each other so in the long run I think Swamp-Thing wins out for me just because his personality makes the issues stand out and you can see him grow as a character. To put it another way, if you were to pose this as issue #X of Gerber's Man-Thing vs. issue #Y of Wein's Swamp-Thing I think I'd be inclined to say that I'd most likely give the win to Man-Thing no matter the selected values for X and Y the majority of the time but when viewed as a whole rather than on the individual basis I go the other way because you can really build on a character like Swamp-Thing over time where as Man-Thing is more or less consistently the same every time he appears. From a theoretical standpoint, I see what you're saying, but in actual execution, the original Swamp Thing was a stagnant character who did not undergo any kind of progression. Meanwhile, Gerber got around this problem by progressing both the supporting cast and the town of Citrusville as a whole. Come to think of it, Wein did this too with Matt Cable. But not with Swamp Thing himself. I don't know, I thought there was definite character progression from the start of his run to the end in issue 13, it wasn't much the search to find his wife's murderers and a cure for his curse provided more fertile ground for storytelling in the long haul. |
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2016 13:26:00 GMT -5
From a theoretical standpoint, I see what you're saying, but in actual execution, the original Swamp Thing was a stagnant character who did not undergo any kind of progression. Meanwhile, Gerber got around this problem by progressing both the supporting cast and the town of Citrusville as a whole. Come to think of it, Wein did this too with Matt Cable. But not with Swamp Thing himself. I don't know, I thought there was definite character progression from the start of his run to the end in issue 13, it wasn't much the search to find his wife's murderers and a cure for his curse provided more fertile ground for storytelling in the long haul. I just read through #1-10 over the past few days and didn't get this at all. It's the backstory, but not a driving force in the issues themselves. Maybe #11-13 emphasize it more? I don't own those. |
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