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Post by Randle-El on Aug 3, 2014 16:14:36 GMT -5
Frank Miller's shadow on both of these characters looms large. Nearly every creator that has worked on Batman or Daredevil always mentions his name as being part of their creative process -- whether it's to express their admiration, acknowledge his influence, or indicate a desire to differentiate from his take on the characters. Which character do you think he had the greater impact on? Was his work on Batman better than his run on Daredevil? Discuss!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 16:33:06 GMT -5
It seemed like Robbins and O'Neil were moving Batman in a more mature/darker direction prior to DKR (not sure what happened in the interim), although maybe not to the same degree. I haven't read nearly as much Daredevil and haven't read his run (I don't care for DKR), but what little I read would seem to indicate he probably had a bigger impact on Daredevil just because there's a bigger difference in the pre and post-Miller Daredevil I've read than Batman.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 16:42:26 GMT -5
Daredevil. He worked on the character longer & his "version" of DD survived for decades. Born Again & Man w/o Fear are classics. Plus his work on the monthly was amazing.
His DKR & YO were awesome & influenced Batman for yrs. However his later work on Batman - DKSB & ASBR were not as well received.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 16:48:21 GMT -5
Miller transformed Daredevil from a second-tier, almost cancelled Marvel title to one of the early 80s more popular titles. His Born again run from #226 to 233 is not to be forgotten either.
So yeah, his impact on horn-head was bigger.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Aug 3, 2014 18:25:09 GMT -5
The first issue of Daredevil I bought off the stand was #167. The next issue was the first appearance of Elektra! I had a passing familiarity with DD before then (mostly from his team-ups with Spider-man), but was sort of "meh" about the character. Miller's run made it a must-read. I'd never been so blown away by a comic. I can still quote verbatim from it. When DKR came out, I remember thinking, "Cool. Batman's getting the Daredevil treatment."
Cast my vote with Daredevil.
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Post by chadwilliam on Aug 3, 2014 19:34:26 GMT -5
As I'm not as familiar with Daredevil as I am Batman I can't really compare the two, but I do know that Mark Waid is currently writing a version of Matt Murdock that doesn't seem to be too difficult to reconcile with the pre-Born Again version of the character. I don't know however, if the same approach would even be attempted nowadays with Batman. Even when doing a story inspired by and set during some of Batman's more outrageous Silver Age adventures, Grant Morrison still seemed to be using Frank Miller's (or at least, a Frank Miller influenced) template for the character. I mean, if you can't revisit the Jack Schiff era of Batman without using Miller's unbalanced and obsessed intrepetation of Batman as your go-to setting, then yeah, it's hard for me to believe that he had an even greater impact on another character. Interesting fact - Frank Miller's involvement with Batman (to the extent that his ideas were severely changing the character) actually goes back to Batman and the Outsiders. At the end of the first issue, Mike Barr gives thanks to a few other creators mentioning that they helped shape the Batman we'd be seeing in that title. One of those creators was Frank Miller. I don't know who came up with what, but the Batman in that series (at least with regards to the early issues) really feels like the Batman we wouldn't really be introduced to until Dark Knight/Year One. The team even finds its origins in Superman acting like a government stooge (something the character would never be prior to this story) and has Batman complimenting one of his men when he throws a dictator to his people to be torn apart ("I like the way you think" he remarks). That's kind of a tangent, but I thought it worth throwing into the mix. Although I'm not a Frank Miller fan, he did come up with some ideas that were inspired. He was the one who figured out which movie the Waynes watched the night of their murder for instance, and by establishing that Alfred served as the Waynes butler since Bruce Wayne was a boy, he pretty much ensured that from this moment on, Alfred would play a far greater role in Batman's life than he had before. I can't help but be impressed by the way this minor detail now made it almost essential for Alfred to possess a dry, caustic wit that had been absent during his first 43 years of existence. A butler who only met Bruce Wayne after his career as Batman had begun would be out of line to sarcastically comment on his crimefighting, but as a member of the family who had helped raise him, it would never feel inappropriate. I think however, that while Miller's impact on Batman was and remains unquestionably huge, it has nonetheless been an negative one. It strikes me as odd to hear about how much damage the Adam West series has had on Batman when the existence of that show never stood in the way of us getting the Robbins/Novick/O Neil/Adams version just one year after Batmania took off, or the Frank Miller version 20 years later, yet here we are almost 30 years after Dark Knight and it's the mentally unhinged, emotionally unstable, man-child that prevents any better interpretations from coming to the fore. Again though, I'm not familiar enough with Daredevil to say whether or not he has these problems, but it does at least feel as if a writer has more possibilities when writing him than he or she would with Batman.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 4, 2014 0:51:19 GMT -5
As I'm not as familiar with Daredevil as I am Batman I can't really compare the two, but I do know that Mark Waid is currently writing a version of Matt Murdock that doesn't seem to be too difficult to reconcile with the pre-Born Again version of the character. I don't know however, if the same approach would even be attempted nowadays with Batman. Even when doing a story inspired by and set during some of Batman's more outrageous Silver Age adventures, Grant Morrison still seemed to be using Frank Miller's (or at least, a Frank Miller influenced) template for the character. I mean, if you can't revisit the Jack Schiff era of Batman without using Miller's unbalanced and obsessed intrepetation of Batman as your go-to setting, then yeah, it's hard for me to believe that he had an even greater impact on another character. Interesting fact - Frank Miller's involvement with Batman (to the extent that his ideas were severely changing the character) actually goes back to Batman and the Outsiders. At the end of the first issue, Mike Barr gives thanks to a few other creators mentioning that they helped shape the Batman we'd be seeing in that title. One of those creators was Frank Miller. I don't know who came up with what, but the Batman in that series (at least with regards to the early issues) really feels like the Batman we wouldn't really be introduced to until Dark Knight/Year One. The team even finds its origins in Superman acting like a government stooge (something the character would never be prior to this story) and has Batman complimenting one of his men when he throws a dictator to his people to be torn apart ("I like the way you think" he remarks). That's kind of a tangent, but I thought it worth throwing into the mix. Although I'm not a Frank Miller fan, he did come up with some ideas that were inspired. He was the one who figured out which movie the Waynes watched the night of their murder for instance, and by establishing that Alfred served as the Waynes butler since Bruce Wayne was a boy, he pretty much ensured that from this moment on, Alfred would play a far greater role in Batman's life than he had before. I can't help but be impressed by the way this minor detail now made it almost essential for Alfred to possess a dry, caustic wit that had been absent during his first 43 years of existence. A butler who only met Bruce Wayne after his career as Batman had begun would be out of line to sarcastically comment on his crimefighting, but as a member of the family who had helped raise him, it would never feel inappropriate. I think however, that while Miller's impact on Batman was and remains unquestionably huge, it has nonetheless been an negative one. It strikes me as odd to hear about how much damage the Adam West series has had on Batman when the existence of that show never stood in the way of us getting the Robbins/Novick/O Neil/Adams version just one year after Batmania took off, or the Frank Miller version 20 years later, yet here we are almost 30 years after Dark Knight and it's the mentally unhinged, emotionally unstable, man-child that prevents any better interpretations from coming to the fore. Again though, I'm not familiar enough with Daredevil to say whether or not he has these problems, but it does at least feel as if a writer has more possibilities when writing him than he or she would with Batman. Great analysis. I loved Miller's work on Daredevil, but for me his work on Batman is uneven. I loved Year One, but found DKR to be overrated. To me, the portrayals of Batman in the two stories were really different. DKR Batman came off as more of a violent and sociopathic character. I haven't read All-Star Batman, but it sounds like Miller took the Batman in DKR and really ran with it for All-Star. Miller took Daredevil to some dark places in his books, but I don't think he ever quite made him to be an anti-hero on the level of his Batman.
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Post by comicscube on Aug 4, 2014 3:33:51 GMT -5
I love Miller's work on both, though I prefer Dark Knight Returns over just about all of that. Dark Knight Returns was something I didn't take to right away, as with most of Miller's work, and only really took to when I removed the "realism" tag.
Having said that, he seems to have had more of an impact on the characterization of Batman (where most writers afterward, I would say, took the wrong thing from his work) and the plotting of Daredevil (DD getting his life torn apart is his "thing" now). I'm fine with the latter — superhero ongoings are cyclical — but am annoyed at the former, as Batman hasn't been a character I've enjoyed reading for quite some time now.
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Post by berkley on Aug 4, 2014 8:29:56 GMT -5
I couldn't say which is better, but I would say that the big difference between then is that his Batman was still Batman - a new interpretation, but firmly based on the established character - while his Daredevil was an entirely new character that had very little in common with the old one.
I like what I've read of Miller's DD - about the first 3/4 of his first run - but I pretty much think of it as a completely different series and character from the original.
I also think that he'd brought his artwork to a new level by the time he worked on Batman, and also wasn't hindered by the time constraints of drawing an ongoing monthly series, but I suppose the question here is more about his writing.
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Post by Pharozonk on Aug 4, 2014 9:12:44 GMT -5
I haven't read his Daredevil work, but I never liked anything he did on Batman.
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Post by MDG on Aug 4, 2014 12:04:42 GMT -5
I much prefer the Daredevil work, in that it was done in the context of an ongoing book with no advance hoopla. DD was getting darker--I remember a couple of nice Gil Kane/Jansen issues around #150--but it was the combination of the stories and the storytelling, which was already gaining attention before Miller took over as writer.
Dark Knight is becoming, like Watchmen, a "you had to be there" phenomenon--it doesn't have the impact it once had, and the flaws are more evident. I'd guess that Year One probably holds up better (thanks in a big part, maybe, to Mazzuchelli) (haven't re-read it since they originally came out).
His big Elektra hardcover looks great, but in many ways was dead in the water in terms of sales. Used to see dealers with multiple copies for bargain prices at shows. Maybe the lack of much of a story for the original price.
(Dealers used to have stacks of Ronin #1 and #2 for sale, but #5 and #6 were hard to find after dealers cut orders way back--I think it was the combination of Miller + Batman that made Dark Knight a success, not Miller on his own.))
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Post by benday-dot on Aug 4, 2014 19:04:30 GMT -5
I also esteem Miller's Daredevil work much more than do I his Batman work.
I still clearly recall picking up Daredevil as it his the stands each months during those years of the early 80's.
It was both a transformation experience in my relationship with the medium, and, as it turned out would be last hurrah with comics for a couple decades.
As Miller's long saga unfolded month after month it felt to me as if it was the carefully plotted and deliberate telling of a novel, not the sort of scattered but ad hoc narrative structure that hitherto characterized much of comic storytelling (obviously, there were significant exceptions)
All told Daredevil was richly layered drama immersed not so much in the Marvel universe but in its own lexicon, interests and direction. It avoided sentimentality but neither did it venture into the depressingly; it felt authentic and organic.
By contrast, initially excited about Miller's Dark Knight (I was and remain a proponent of his Ronin mini-series), I actually never ended up finishing it, giving up on both the story and comics themselves after two issues.
I'm sure other external factors were involved, I was at a time when my drift from comics was inevitable, but nonetheless, it then felt to me that there was something a little gratuitous and even alianting in DKR. At least it's appeal never reached me at the time. I've since gone back and read the whole thing and my opinion has softened somewhat, but I still will without a doubt advance the vitures of Miller's Daredevil over his Batman.
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 5, 2014 10:57:35 GMT -5
If you want to compare each character's stature in the comic world pre- and post-Miller, he undoubtedly had the greater impact on Daredevil. As Jez pointed out, Daredevil was a second-tier character whose book was on the verge of being cancelled when Miller was brought on. He managed to transform Daredevil into one of Marvel's more popular (though still B-list, I would argue) characters. Batman, on the other hand, was always an A-list character for DC before and after Miller's work.
However, I think if you measure Miller's impact as it concerns his influence on other creators and the direction the characters have taken since his time with them, I think the scales tip in favor of Batman. Of the writers who have been on Daredevil since Miller, Mark Waid seems to have been the most successful at escaping from under Miller's shadow, both in terms of longevity and reception. Kesel also did a run that was a lighter take on the character, though it was pretty short. Ann Nocenti, having had the unenviable task of taking the reins from Miller after Born Again, retained elements of Miller's run, but I think made a brave attempt to differentiate her Daredevil in some unorthodox ways -- the political aspects of her writing, and injecting a supernatural component via the Mephisto storyline. On the other hand, as chadwilliam pointed out, I don't know that you can count the same kind of diversity in Batman's writing since Miller.
The thing I find to be intriguing is Miller's influence on each character relative to the output he produced. Miller had an extended run on the main Daredevil title of about 30 issues (more if you count the start of his run as penciller, though I don't know how much say he had in plot), in addition to the Man Without Fear limited series. His Daredevil run is widely considered to be the best run on the character. For Batman, he produced four out-of-continuity limited series, one which was never completed and widely panned (All-Star), and another which had a lukewarm reception (Dark Knight Strikes Again), yet he is still credited with having such an influential role in shaping Batman. To me, the accolades for Batman just don't seem to be in proportion to the size and quality of his output. Then again, I'm one of those guys who thinks DKR is overrated, so what do I know.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 5, 2014 18:27:27 GMT -5
Yeah, let's keep in mind that Daredevil was already one of the darkest Marvel titles when Miller came on board - Those Copperhead and Death Stalker story-lines were horror tinged and BLEAK, compared to the bright-primary-colors of the other Marvel books. And also, due to the Black Widow guest starring, the most frankly sexual book in the Marvel stable as well. I'd honestly say that Batman changed MORE due to Miller's influence.
Also Dark Knight Returns was insanely well put together on a formalist/technical level, and synthesized a lot of stuff that had never really been part of American Mainstream comics before, drawing from Greek Theater (complete with the media acting as "chorus") and Manga and European comics all at once.
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Post by hondobrode on Aug 5, 2014 18:59:46 GMT -5
The better of the two is easily Daredevil IMO, though Year One is great.
DD was Miller taking a nearly cancelled title and making it his own noir superhero and along with often unsung inker Klaus Janson, actually catapulted the title to number one past X-Men for a time.
While Miller's contribution to the Batman mythos is important, undoubtedly, it's still one in a chain of greats, and Batman was and always will be A-list.
Miller's contribution to the Daredevil mythos is immeasurable. McKenzie and Colan had started down that road, true, and it was wonderful, but it was Miller that brought in Elektra, gave all kinds of dementia to Bullseye, and stole Kingpin from the Spidey camp re-purposing him into DD's arch foe. The title grabbed me with 168 and I immediately got a subscription and those issues stunned me.
Even Miller's over the top DKSA & All Star, still have merit and I enjoyed them both for what they are, but part of the joy is lost as Miller becomes too full of himself and prentitious IMO.
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