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Post by tingramretro on Nov 21, 2016 10:50:45 GMT -5
Yesterday I sat down and re-read X-Men #1 because it had been many, many years since I read it. It was pretty bad! I read half of #2 and had to stop, could not take any more! Lee's script was pretty childish & Kirby's art was bland and uninspiring. I never was a big Kirby fan on these very early Marvel books. It's actually hard to believe that the Jack Kirby who drew this mess is the same Jack Kirby who would later become an artistic god! Jack and Stan might've been running on empty at that point and coming up with a new hero book--with a group, yet--may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Even if they were initially excited about it, they may not have had the time/energy they were putting into FF, Thor, etc. to do anything with it. Mormel mentioned how the characters were basic stock--they could've been the cast of a team book. And while Kirby could come up with intriguing character concepts all day (Blob, Juggernaut), he wasn't able to find too much novel for them to do. Stan was, admittedly, better at dialogue than any of the other writers he was hiring at this time, it feels like he was only looking at the books and characters issue by issue (if not panel by panel). It got better when Roy Thomas and Werner Roth took over. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Nov 21, 2016 11:10:30 GMT -5
Still, best moment in the classic X-Men is a recovering Xavier telling his students that he'll "be back on his feet in no time." No editor thinking "hey, maybe not have a wheelchair-bound character say that?".
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Post by hondobrode on Nov 21, 2016 11:15:39 GMT -5
I liked X-Force way better, though I remember a Comic Shop guy saying that the originals didn't sell the first time, why would they sell now ?
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Post by The Captain on Nov 21, 2016 11:36:10 GMT -5
Still, best moment in the classic X-Men is a recovering Xavier telling his students that he'll "be back on his feet in no time." No editor thinking "hey, maybe not have a wheelchair-bound character say that?". I actually like that he used a phrase like that, meaning he'll be back to normal soon. There's a fifth-grade girl at my church whose been blind since birth, and I've heard her say "I'll wait and see" when asked if she's going to do something, even though she's never seen anything. That's how actual people talk, without every word being carefully mulled over or crafted, so it's more human and realistic to write dialogue that way. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 12:48:15 GMT -5
I had to laugh at #1 when Professor X is telepathically calling the X-Men to appear, saying that "class is now in session", and then he says "TARDINESS WILL BE PUNISHED"!?? Sounds severe to me, like something more than a demerit. Professor X also didn't like to be interrupted, wonder if that warranted a spanking?
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 21, 2016 14:00:00 GMT -5
I liked X-Force way better, though I remember a Comic Shop guy saying that the originals didn't sell the first time, why would they sell now ? Don't you mean X-Factor rather than X-Force? |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 21, 2016 14:02:20 GMT -5
I had to laugh at #1 when Professor X is telepathically calling the X-Men to appear, saying that "class is now in session", and then he says "TARDINESS WILL BE PUNISHED"!?? Sounds severe to me, like something more than a demerit. Professor X also didn't like to be interrupted, wonder if that warranted a spanking? Only for Jean. At least one of his thought balloons indicated his interest in her extended to extracurricular activities...the creepy old man! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 21, 2016 15:05:17 GMT -5
Clearly, I need to get back to my review thread! I agree Angel and Iceman were pretty boring... With Warren being a cut rate Tony Stark with super lame powers and Bobby being a generic class clown... I suspect that's why they both have since been transformed (Angel a zillion times, Bobby now to the repressed Gay teen that only now is comfortable in his own skin). |
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Post by brutalis on Nov 21, 2016 15:21:19 GMT -5
It isn't so much the characters themselves are boring as their is something there that must have been on the mark or else those specific five and Xavier wouldn't still be around today. More appropriate to place the blame on writing as Stan Lee made no attempt's beyond stereotypical teen when writing Scott, Jean, Warren, Hank and Bobby. Also blame Roy Thomas for not investing any real efforts into the series or being able to find something to spark his imagination. Many of the stories come across as weak or even dumb at times and with very few strong villains and returning foe Magneto every few issues the series never could find a niche.
Until Neal Adam's came along to provide CPR to an already dead series artistically the X-Men were always also ran's of mediocre story telling with a few highlights here and there. At least his few issues gave a jump start that was followed up on with the advent of the All-New All-Different multi racial X-Men.
There is a lot of potential in the original's but even today's writer's have chosen to turn them all into some sort of twisted and damned individuals,focusing on failings rather than having them being the inspiring teen's for tomorrow. All of the team have had their dark arc's and can't recover from those story lines.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 18:12:42 GMT -5
It isn't so much the characters themselves are boring as their is something there that must have been on the mark or else those specific five and Xavier wouldn't still be around today. More appropriate to place the blame on writing as Stan Lee made no attempt's beyond stereotypical teen when writing Scott, Jean, Warren, Hank and Bobby. Also blame Roy Thomas for not investing any real efforts into the series or being able to find something to spark his imagination. Many of the stories come across as weak or even dumb at times and with very few strong villains and returning foe Magneto every few issues the series never could find a niche. Until Neal Adam's came along to provide CPR to an already dead series artistically the X-Men were always also ran's of mediocre story telling with a few highlights here and there. At least his few issues gave a jump start that was followed up on with the advent of the All-New All-Different multi racial X-Men. There is a lot of potential in the original's but even today's writer's have chosen to turn them all into some sort of twisted and damned individuals,focusing on failings rather than having them being the inspiring teen's for tomorrow. All of the team have had their dark arc's and can't recover from those story lines. So, if Neal Adams had never come along, would the X-Men had ever morphed into the ALL NEW, ALL DIFFERENT X-MEN?? Let's face it, ART trumps story in many ways!, OR, ART enhances STORY to make things GREAT!! The dynamic way Adams drew X-Men was so utterly appealing that if a lesser artist tackled it, would anything become of this book beyond reprint mode? I think if it were not for Neal Adams, the X-Men would be DEAD today!? Yeah |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 21, 2016 18:32:31 GMT -5
Clearly, I need to get back to my review thread! I agree Angel and Iceman were pretty boring... With Warren being a cut rate Tony Stark with super lame powers and Bobby being a generic class clown... I suspect that's why they both have since been transformed (Angel a zillion times, Bobby now to the repressed Gay teen that only now is comfortable in his own skin). Why does everybody think Angel is boring!!? Angel-not the tedious, grim'n gritty Archangel, but the real Angel before they ruined him-is my favourite Marvel mutant by far, and probably one of my top five favourite comics characters! What's "boring" about him? What's so wrong with just being a guy with money and really cool looking wings? |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 21, 2016 18:40:37 GMT -5
It isn't so much the characters themselves are boring as their is something there that must have been on the mark or else those specific five and Xavier wouldn't still be around today. More appropriate to place the blame on writing as Stan Lee made no attempt's beyond stereotypical teen when writing Scott, Jean, Warren, Hank and Bobby. Also blame Roy Thomas for not investing any real efforts into the series or being able to find something to spark his imagination. Many of the stories come across as weak or even dumb at times and with very few strong villains and returning foe Magneto every few issues the series never could find a niche. Until Neal Adam's came along to provide CPR to an already dead series artistically the X-Men were always also ran's of mediocre story telling with a few highlights here and there. At least his few issues gave a jump start that was followed up on with the advent of the All-New All-Different multi racial X-Men. There is a lot of potential in the original's but even today's writer's have chosen to turn them all into some sort of twisted and damned individuals,focusing on failings rather than having them being the inspiring teen's for tomorrow. All of the team have had their dark arc's and can't recover from those story lines. So, if Neal Adams had never come along, would the X-Men had ever morphed into the ALL NEW, ALL DIFFERENT X-MEN?? Let's face it, ART trumps story in many ways!, OR, ART enhances STORY to make things GREAT!! The dynamic way Adams drew X-Men was so utterly appealing that if a lesser artist tackled it, would anything become of this book beyond reprint mode? I think if it were not for Neal Adams, the X-Men would be DEAD today!? Yeah You're both talking absolute nonsense! Magneto every few issues? Magneto was written out pretty early on and later returned in only three storylines in that original run, in one of which he was a robot! Mediocre storytelling? What about the brilliant Factor Three arc, or Mesmero and the Demi-Men? Or Sauron? Or the Savage Land saga? Adams the only savig grace artistically? Not remotely true! yes, Adams was by far the best, but I liked the art from pretty much the moment Kirby left, and what about Steranko? It was a great series! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 21, 2016 21:59:16 GMT -5
Why does everybody think Angel is boring!!? Angel-not the tedious, grim'n gritty Archangel, but the real Angel before they ruined him-is my favourite Marvel mutant by far, and probably one of my top five favourite comics characters! What's "boring" about him? What's so wrong with just being a guy with money and really cool looking wings? I think you summed it up yourself.. there's nothing WRONG with him, he just has no business being a superhero  |
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Post by hondobrode on Nov 21, 2016 23:03:09 GMT -5
I liked X-Force way better, though I remember a Comic Shop guy saying that the originals didn't sell the first time, why would they sell now ? Don't you mean X-Factor rather than X-Force? Oy ! Yes, of course that's what I meant. Can you tell I haven't read a mutie comic in a really long time ? Looking back 50 years now and reading anything from the Silver Age, at least for some of us, is kind of rocky. Lee & Kirby, like anyone, had hits and misses, or some stuff better and some stuff not so great. To me, the original run up until Wein comes on, with the exception of Thomas & Adams, is mostly weak. Good ideas, weak execution. It's truly amazing when you look at the originals and then what it evolved  into later. Readers from back then loved Spidey, the FF, the Avengers; how often do you hear someone saying, "Oh yeah. X-Men was so great back then. It was my favorite. The best thing Stan and Jack ever did." I've heard about the aforementioned time and again, and I get it. I also get that anything ever produced was someone's favorite, but the original run was definitely the weakest group title they did IMO. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 21, 2016 23:52:50 GMT -5
I read the first issue in Son of Origins and it was okay; but, rather generic. Kind of felt the same way about Avengers #1, actually. I read the reprints in Amazing Adventures, when that was revived. The Vanisher story did nothing for me and I never understood why the character's costume looked like a Cobra. He looked like a leftover from Ditko's Spider-Man. It picked up a bit with Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, got better with Sub-Mariner, then starts exploring the Mutant idea more, with Unus.
I later had the Marvel Masterworks (before they switched to reprinting the revived series)for the first 20 issues and the latter half is definitely better than the first. It grows as time progresses and really comes alive under Roy. I haven't read much of what occurs between the introduction of Mimic and the Neal Adams stuff, though, other than the Steranko issues. Most of my knowledge of that era came from #138, when they recap the history, while the gang attends Jean's funeral.
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into later.