Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 19, 2016 10:26:49 GMT -5
That's perfectly sensible. Something else that might have played a role is that I imagine blowing up Yavin (if at all possible) would mean an expense of energy many orders of magnitude greater than just destroying one of its moons. Even the Death Star has to pay its bills, and I can imagine Tarkin deciding than the guaranteed destruction of Yavin 4 in twenty minutes, for a fraction of the cost, is just as good as its immediate destruction. Hubris, hubris, you shall be the doom of us all! My gut feeling is "it's a plot hole". My "Star Wars fan going for a no-prize" self has this explanation: time dilation. It is well known that the faster one goes, the slower time passes relative to an outside observer. I try to reconcile the several hours spent by Leia and Co. with the several weeks spent by Luke by assuming the pursuit of the Falcon by the Imperials happened at relativistic speeds, while Luke just jumped through hyperspace and landed on Dagobah. What I really can't explain, however, is why the Jedi keep going on about "Such and such is too old to be trained" while it's obvious that a novice like Luke can be trained in a matter of weeks. Either it all comes down to the amount of midichlorians (ACK! CHOKE! SPIT!) one carries, or the Jedi are full of it and want to keep a tight control on who gets trained and who doesn't!  Unfortunately, there is nothing in the movie to suggest that there are any cost or power considerations with the Death Star. Any explanation that the problem is that Yavin being a gas giant or that there is any limitation is not supported by the movie itself. But it isn't refuted by the movie either. So, that's not really a totally convincing argument. There's plenty from those films -- and in pretty much any film -- that isn't expressly stated in the character's dialogue. Plenty of that stuff has been filled in with the novelisations and radio plays etc, etc. The rest, can be worked out yourself, just by using a little common sense. Like I say, this isn't something that is unique to SW. In a film, you don't need every tiny detail explained by the cast. A single line of dialogue could have solved the problem but it didn't. There is similarly no good explanation for Leia's leading the Death Star straight to Yavin. She had no reason to think the Empire was going to start randomly blowing up planets even after Alderan, and a delay of a day or two was not going to make that kind of difference. How sure could she have been that analyzing the blueprints for something as big as the Death Star for a weakness could find a weakness in a short amount of time? It would only make sense if she already knew what the weakness was beforehand.Well, as we've seen in Rogue One, the Rebels above Scarif (which would include Leia) did know that there was a weakness associated with the main reactor in the battle station. The Rebel technicians on Yavin 4 just had to analyse the data and figure out what it was. |
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Post by brutalis on Dec 19, 2016 10:44:08 GMT -5
Rogue One is a good to great Star Wars Movie. We have new in canon Star Wars every years coming at us now when before we had to wait years and wondering if/what Lucas might ever do. Thank the Force that we have new writers and directors capable of achieving movies that look like, feel like and taste like they are real Star Wars movies. Will there be flaws? Of course there will be. No movie is ever completely perfect and Lucas made plenty of his own errors. In whole though it is a fantastic time to be Star Wars addict as we await each December for the next movie serial chapter. The current Disney regime must have done something correct, because we all keep going in droves to see each new chapter. This is likely the closest to the intent Lucas had for serializing the saga and i for one am a happy storm trooper!!!!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 19, 2016 11:27:41 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there is nothing in the movie to suggest that there are any cost or power considerations with the Death Star. Any explanation that the problem is that Yavin being a gas giant or that there is any limitation is not supported by the movie itself. But it isn't refuted by the movie either. So, that's not really a totally convincing argument. There's plenty from those films -- and in pretty much any film -- that isn't expressly stated in the character's dialogue. Plenty of that stuff has been filled in with the novelisations and radio plays etc, etc. The rest, can be worked out yourself, just by using a little common sense. Like I say, this isn't something that is unique to SW. In a film, you don't need every tiny detail explained by the cast. A single line of dialogue could have solved the problem but it didn't. There is similarly no good explanation for Leia's leading the Death Star straight to Yavin. She had no reason to think the Empire was going to start randomly blowing up planets even after Alderan, and a delay of a day or two was not going to make that kind of difference. How sure could she have been that analyzing the blueprints for something as big as the Death Star for a weakness could find a weakness in a short amount of time? It would only make sense if she already knew what the weakness was beforehand.Well, as we've seen in Rogue One, the Rebels above Scarif (which would include Leia) did know that there was a weakness associated with the main reactor in the battle station. The Rebel technicians on Yavin 4 just had to analyse the data and figure out what it was. Eh, rather than rationalize a reason for why the Deathstar had to travel to the other side of the planet rather than firing directly at it, it seems easier to accept that the reason was for dramatic purposes rather than "real" logistical ones, and it's the same for going right back to the base too. It does make more sense to either fire at the planet, or you know jump back into hyperdrive for another second and pop out on the other side of the planet than to laboriously orbit the planet and give the Rebels a chance to escape or use the plans you know they have to exploit your weakness...but this ominous image cut into scenes of the Rebels fighting:  Just makes for a much greater sense of drama, and it's the same for the Falcon's flight to Yavin. Sure it would have been smarter to ditch the tracker you know they put on you but the impending doom makes for a much better story than hiding out in some back world bar while Han and Chewie remove the tracker and then liesurely making their way to the base and spending weeks or months coming up with the perfect attack plan.
I wouldn't call either a plot hole, but they are definitely contrivances for the sake of enhancing the plot but the film was definitely the better for their inclusion so neither is an issue. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 19, 2016 13:34:05 GMT -5
But it isn't refuted by the movie either. So, that's not really a totally convincing argument. There's plenty from those films -- and in pretty much any film -- that isn't expressly stated in the character's dialogue. Plenty of that stuff has been filled in with the novelisations and radio plays etc, etc. The rest, can be worked out yourself, just by using a little common sense. Like I say, this isn't something that is unique to SW. In a film, you don't need every tiny detail explained by the cast. Well, as we've seen in Rogue One, the Rebels above Scarif (which would include Leia) did know that there was a weakness associated with the main reactor in the battle station. The Rebel technicians on Yavin 4 just had to analyse the data and figure out what it was. Eh, rather than rationalize a reason for why the Deathstar had to travel to the other side of the planet rather than firing directly at it, it seems easier to accept that the reason was for dramatic purposes rather than "real" logistical ones, and it's the same for going right back to the base too. It does make more sense to either fire at the planet, or you know jump back into hyperdrive for another second and pop out on the other side of the planet than to laboriously orbit the planet and give the Rebels a chance to escape or use the plans you know they have to exploit your weakness...but this ominous image cut into scenes of the Rebels fighting: Just makes for a much greater sense of drama, and it's the same for the Falcon's flight to Yavin. Sure it would have been smarter to ditch the tracker you know they put on you but the impending doom makes for a much better story than hiding out in some back world bar while Han and Chewie remove the tracker and then liesurely making their way to the base and spending weeks or months coming up with the perfect attack plan.
I wouldn't call either a plot hole, but they are definitely contrivances for the sake of enhancing the plot but the film was definitely the better for their inclusion so neither is an issue. Wait...What? Are you trying to say that Star Wars isn't a fly on the wall documentary?  You're dead to me. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 19, 2016 13:46:02 GMT -5
Eh, rather than rationalize a reason for why the Deathstar had to travel to the other side of the planet rather than firing directly at it, it seems easier to accept that the reason was for dramatic purposes rather than "real" logistical ones, and it's the same for going right back to the base too. It does make more sense to either fire at the planet, or you know jump back into hyperdrive for another second and pop out on the other side of the planet than to laboriously orbit the planet and give the Rebels a chance to escape or use the plans you know they have to exploit your weakness...but this ominous image cut into scenes of the Rebels fighting: Just makes for a much greater sense of drama, and it's the same for the Falcon's flight to Yavin. Sure it would have been smarter to ditch the tracker you know they put on you but the impending doom makes for a much better story than hiding out in some back world bar while Han and Chewie remove the tracker and then liesurely making their way to the base and spending weeks or months coming up with the perfect attack plan.
I wouldn't call either a plot hole, but they are definitely contrivances for the sake of enhancing the plot but the film was definitely the better for their inclusion so neither is an issue. Wait...What? Are you trying to say that Star Wars isn't a fly on the wall documentary? You're dead to me. It's definitely a bitter pill to swallow, I know. But the pain will pass  |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 19, 2016 19:39:00 GMT -5
Wait...What? Are you trying to say that Star Wars isn't a fly on the wall documentary? You're dead to me. It's definitely a bitter pill to swallow, I know. But the pain will pass Nothing could be as painful as midichlorians anyway. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 19, 2016 20:34:02 GMT -5
It's definitely a bitter pill to swallow, I know. But the pain will pass Nothing could be as painful as midichlorians anyway. You wanna see a doctor about that, mate! |
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 19, 2016 20:50:59 GMT -5
It's definitely a bitter pill to swallow, I know. But the pain will pass Nothing could be as painful as midichlorians anyway. I thought I had midichlorians once, but it turned out to just be indigestion. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 22, 2016 19:39:28 GMT -5
Well, i just got back from seeing it and although it was a fun film and I liked it a whole lot better than the Force Awakens(which I only thought was okay) I still felt like it wasn't a story that didn't really need to be told and it seemed overly self referential.
Basically, I want Star Wars: The Next Generation. I want new adventures in the Star Wars universe that play on similar tropes of the originals from time to time but don't rely so heavily on the context of the original in order to be enjoyable.
Between this film, The Force Awakens, and what I've seen of the Bladerunner trailer I feel like I'm going to look up at the marque sometime in the not so distant future and see "Letters of Transit: Rick Blaine's Story" in bright lights...and then I just may keel over and die
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 25, 2016 12:28:31 GMT -5
This movie featured the badass Darth Vader that I remember from ESB. But it made me sad to hear the old shaky voice of James Earl Jones in his first scene. His final Battle scene was absolutely awesome.
The movie itself was okay. You knew that all of them would die just from what the movie "A New Hope" said.
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Post by String on Dec 27, 2016 10:33:17 GMT -5
Well, I must have seen a different film because I had no problem whatsoever with the CGI Tarkin nor Leia. Nor do I see any perceived disrespect on the ghost of Peter Cushing. They used his image to recreate a character he previously played that was utilized in a similar role in a similar film. If Disney went through the proper legal channels to obtain that usage and Cushing's estate had no reservations nor problems with that usage, that's fine with me. I was expecting them to look worse but instead thought they did a fine job with it. Tarkin's role is necessary, not only for continuity sake but because his appearance strengthens Carric's storyline of needing recognition and glory for what he has accomplished. If you want to see a true CGI Tarkin, watch the Rebels cartoon.
This was a terrific film, far superior to TFA. This was a story, I think, that needed to be shown. Jyn's speech to the Rebel Council highlights that need, these are varied groups of beings and worlds come together under the general auspices of fighting the Empire yet had differing views on how to do that. Now faced with the prospect of a devastating super-weapon, do they continue to fight or flee? Jyn's mission served as a catalyst to ignite the belief that Yes, we can oppose and defeat the Empire.
The supporting cast was phenomenal and I'm sad that because the film had the singular goal of telling this specific story, we didn't get much chance to learn more of these characters' backstories. I wanted to learn more of Capt. Andor and what led him to joining the Rebellion, the source of his dissatisfaction of fighting this type of war with these questionable moral tactics while supposedly uplifting a noble cause. Donnie Yen's character had soooo much potential. He's not a Jedi yet believes in the Force and his actions and results would seem to verify that belief. This gives more credence to the idea (explored more through the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons) that there's more to the galaxy view/belief of the Force than mere Jedi vs. Sith, there's a mystical side to it shared by non-Force users. His best friend and partner, Baze, what was his backstory? I'm not sure but the man fought as hard and as tough as a Mandalorian. The former Imperial pilot Bodhi, who was gaining the courage and inspiration to fight.
And the droid K-2 was funny and heartwarming.
The final battle scenes were incredible and brutal and finally, Vader shown to still be deadly and rightfully feared. It was a welcome scary sight indeed.
Also, loved the three shout-outs to the Rebels cartoon. Dave Feloni has already said they've talked about future stories/episodes where the Battle of Scarif may be shown through the eyes of the Ghost crew. Forest Whitaker will reprise the role of Saw Gerrara in the cartoon.
The mood, the themes, the connections, the look, the action, excellent all-around job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 17:22:30 GMT -5
Rogue One ends with Leia...kinda haunting in a way.
Saw it earlier today....so finding out she died after I came out of the cinema was just....
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2016 17:41:29 GMT -5
Saw it today with my 16 year old.. I thought it was very good.. definitely better than Force Awakens. I'm with String, I don't understand why people didn't like Tarkin, I thought the CGI was amazing. I had to explain to my daughter that's what it was. CGI Tarkin played the same role... yes, it was odd that he was balding more and looked a little older, but the actual CGI was amazing IMO. If there was anything that threw me out of the story, it was Vader.. while I appreciate James Earl Jones getting the work, he sounded old and frail.. I'd be willing to be a voice actor could have done far better.
It was a bit slow early on, but I thought things were really well developed overall, and I thought using the X-Wing commanders from ANH was a nice touch. I thought it felt very Star Wars.
My main problem was the big battle, it was fun to watch, but it doesn't jive with A New Hope. First off, the talk about getting the plans as if it was a sneaky spy op in the original movie, not a major battle that used most of the Alliance's fleet. (never mind nothing about Bothans)... that should have been mentioned at least once in ANH, since it literally took places seconds before the opening of the movie.
Tossing Leia in the end, while nearly making me cry do to her real life death, made no sense other than to make it ride straight into A New Hope... if they wanted her to be there, why not have her in the crowd at the big meeting... or saying goodbye to Bail, and telling us why she wasn't heading for Alderaan as well. For that matter, why does Alderaan get 2 Senators?
That said, though, that's not so bad as far as retcons go.. it could have been alot worse.. it just niggles at me because it would have been easy to fix most of it.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2016 17:43:04 GMT -5
Also, loved the three shout-outs to the Rebels cartoon. Dave Feloni has already said they've talked about future stories/episodes where the Battle of Scarif may be shown through the eyes of the Ghost crew. Forest Whitaker will reprise the role of Saw Gerrara in the cartoon. The mood, the themes, the connections, the look, the action, excellent all-around job. I haven't really watched Rebels yet... care to share? |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Dec 28, 2016 18:00:07 GMT -5
My main problem was the big battle, it was fun to watch, but it doesn't jive with A New Hope. First off, the talk about getting the plans as if it was a sneaky spy op in the original movie, not a major battle that used most of the Alliance's fleet. (never mind nothing about Bothans)... that should have been mentioned at least once in ANH, since it literally took places seconds before the opening of the movie. You're thinking of how they got the plans for the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi. That was when the Bothans were mentioned. The opening crawl of A New Hope specifically states that the plans to the first Death Star were stolen during a battle, what the crawl called the rebel's first victory against the Empire. |
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