Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,436 
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on May 24, 2019 14:41:46 GMT -5
I agree with Slott that you really can't judge a book before its even came out, but I also agree with Byrne about the illusion of change. Byrne used the illusion of change to amazingly good effect during his run on Fantastic Four, but that doesn't mean that actual change is necessarily bad. I loved Him (the character Him, noyt John Byrne!) as a naive, über-powerful test-tube dude who had no idea that you can't just abduct the first woman you fancy. I loved him even more as the hippie Christ-like figure he became under Roy Thomas and Gil Kane's reinterpretation on Counter-Earth, and naturally I can't say enough good about the Moorcockesque tortured hero he became under Starlin. Those were real and permanent changes, and they were all for the best. You can not always tell in advance whether some real change will be good; "change is good" is not a true in and of itself. But neither is "change is bad". (Some changes, whether they be temporary or permanent, can arguably be shown to be awful from the get go, naturally, but that is a discussion for another day). Also, Byrne seems to be a very unpleasant individual to discuss with, judging from that article... Either you agree with him, or you're an idiot. And any amount of pussyfooting you use to avoid hurting his feelings is also apparently in vain. I feel bad for Slott, who at any time could rightfully have said "look, John, my She-Hulk was a lot funnier than yours", but didn't. Too bad the elevator wasn't sent back. I agree too, but I don't see "Peter Parker as a young industrialist" as damaging. As a young Tony Stark wannabe, I can easily see him fall prey to the old Parker luck and face a plethora of real life problems that most of us could relate to; just transpose his high school and early job problems to the Parker Industries workplace, and you get the "illusion of change" that Byrne insists on. After all, it's not because Peter goes into business that he'll be successful! Plus, he could just hate his job, and be bad at it! I agree! Pete's life was always about how optimism, courage and integrity triumph over obstacles (until Gwen's death, that is, and even then things eventually got better). To call it gloomy, and to say that Peter becomes Spider-Man to escape his depressing life, is only Byrne giving his own view. A view which, in my opinion, is flat wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 14:49:01 GMT -5
I agree it's flat wrong.
As for Byrne/Slott, Slott praised Byrne's work many times. He was cordial. And then there was this:
Dan Slott: I’ve been reading comics for over 40 years. I love ’em and respect ’em from every era.
John Byrne: Fit that into your work some time. Might make for fun reading.
That was an unnecessary response. A very horrible response, in fact. There could have been more diplomacy - and an acknowledgement of Slott's compliments.
I judge change on its own merits. I'm not sure I'd be keen on Steve Rogers turning himself into a mouse and running a moonbase as Captain America Mouse for 3-4+ years. But having read Slott's Spidey tales (the "Worldwide" volumes) recently, I liked them. I liked the environment. I loved the new twists on Spidey/Goblin encounters. I loved Spidey creating gadgets and running a corporation.
And John Byrne did implement a lot of changes. That Namor as a mogul arc, which I did enjoy, was very different to the Subby stuff I'd read in various 80s comics. I picked up a load of 60s Subby comics at a comic con once - and Byrne's Namor was different. Not better, just different. And that's fine. Those Namor as a mogul storylines were great!
But you can't criticise Slott's change when your She-Hulk incarnation (which I did like) was very different to how she'd been portrayed in FF, Avengers and solo tales.
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,436
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on May 24, 2019 14:57:36 GMT -5
On the subject of change, I guess John would say that Star Brand doesn't count either... even if he turned the mag 180 degrees from what it had been conceived at.
I agree, @taxidriver1980, Byrne's She-Hulk (in FF and Sensational) was nothing like the original Savage She-Hulk. Granted, most of the change is probably attributable to Stern, but still (and those changes were for the best).
|
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on May 24, 2019 16:47:06 GMT -5
I agree with Slott that you really can't judge a book before its even came out, but I also agree with Byrne about the illusion of change. Byrne used the illusion of change to amazingly good effect during his run on Fantastic Four, but that doesn't mean that actual change is necessarily bad. I loved Him (the character Him, noyt John Byrne!) as a naive, über-powerful test-tube dude who had no idea that you can't just abduct the first woman you fancy. I loved him even more as the hippie Christ-like figure he became under Roy Thomas and Gil Kane's reinterpretation on Counter-Earth, and naturally I can't say enough good about the Moorcockesque tortured hero he became under Starlin. Those were real and permanent changes, and they were all for the best. Well if you're talking about a more obscure, (initially) supporting character, then sure, you have more leeway to do what you want. I think that's a whole different arena than the flagship characters like Spider-Man or the FF.
I usually defend Byrne, but yeah, he did seem a bit mean in this discussion. Bad day maybe.
|
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on May 24, 2019 16:50:23 GMT -5
Thinking about Namor... the business mogul thing was a new twist, but there was still plenty of traditional Subby action in that series. I don't really see it as a change so much as an addition.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 17:11:51 GMT -5
Thinking about Namor... the business mogul thing was a new twist, but there was still plenty of traditional Subby action in that series. I don't really see it as a change so much as an addition. It was a good twist - and there was plenty of Subby action. And I think it's *great*, but he can't criticise other people's changes when he did so many changes such as splitting Hulk/Banner, turning the Vision white, etc. I bet his Star Trek photonovels have probably "fixed" or "retconned" some aspects of that franchise (I don't know that for sure, it's a guess, so tell me if I'm wrong). He's changed a lot of things. And I like it. I like his changes. But he can't criticise other people for changing things. |
|
