shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 31, 2017 20:49:34 GMT -5
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 31, 2017 22:14:13 GMT -5
A random question before beginning:
I'll be starting my reading with Marvel Team-up #100, the first appearance of Karma. Claremont wrote this issue but apparently didn't feel Karma was important enough to incorporate into the X-Men. Then, two years later, when Jim Shooter forced him to launch a second X title (which became New Mutants), he suddenly decided to go back and incorporate this minor character who hadn't been seen since her one and only appearance two years earlier. Did Claremont ever explain what prompted him to do this? Was he just desperate for more characters, or had Karma always been a character he'd intended to return to at some point? He certainly couldn't have anticipated the New Mutants when he introduced her.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 1, 2017 9:57:38 GMT -5
A random question before beginning: I'll be starting my reading with Marvel Team-up #100, the first appearance of Karma. Claremont wrote this issue but apparently didn't feel Karma was important enough to incorporate into the X-Men. Then, two years later, when Jim Shooter forced him to launch a second X title (which became New Mutants), he suddenly decided to go back and incorporate this minor character who hadn't been seen since her one and only appearance two years earlier. Did Claremont ever explain what prompted him to do this? Was he just desperate for more characters, or had Karma always been a character he'd intended to return to at some point? He certainly couldn't have anticipated the New Mutants when he introduced her. If memory serves, he always had bringing her into the X-Men in one form or another in mind. By the way, would you like me to send you my New Mutants index? It only goes up through the September 1986 issue (and it omits the first annual), so I'm not sure how much help it will actually be. Cei-U! I summon the new kids on the block!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2017 11:31:04 GMT -5
A random question before beginning: I'll be starting my reading with Marvel Team-up #100, the first appearance of Karma. Claremont wrote this issue but apparently didn't feel Karma was important enough to incorporate into the X-Men. Then, two years later, when Jim Shooter forced him to launch a second X title (which became New Mutants), he suddenly decided to go back and incorporate this minor character who hadn't been seen since her one and only appearance two years earlier. Did Claremont ever explain what prompted him to do this? Was he just desperate for more characters, or had Karma always been a character he'd intended to return to at some point? He certainly couldn't have anticipated the New Mutants when he introduced her. If memory serves, he always had bringing her into the X-Men in one form or another in mind. By the way, would you like me to send you my New Mutants index? It only goes up through the September 1986 issue (and it omits the first annual), so I'm not sure how much help it will actually be. Cei-U! I summon the new kids on the block! I doubt I'll be going into much depth with these reviews, but sure -- your indexes are always a treat.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 1, 2017 13:18:16 GMT -5
Fond remembrances of this series.Loved the Mcleod art and enjoyed the wildness/creativity that came from Sienkiewicz. Collected up through the end of Bret Blevins' run and stopped when Liefeld came on board.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2017 16:02:35 GMT -5
Fond remembrances of this series.Loved the Mcleod art and enjoyed the wildness/creativity that came from Sienkiewicz. Collected up through the end of Bret Blevins' run and stopped when Liefeld came on board. Liefeld is the part I'm truly not ready for. I read the Liefeld issues first as a ten year old and then read the rest of the run in my twenties. I've never read it all consecutively and am terrified that Liefeld, within the context of what the title had been previously, is going to hurt.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 1, 2017 16:18:37 GMT -5
Fond remembrances of this series.Loved the Mcleod art and enjoyed the wildness/creativity that came from Sienkiewicz. Collected up through the end of Bret Blevins' run and stopped when Liefeld came on board. Liefeld is the part I'm truly not ready for. I read the Liefeld issues first as a ten year old and then read the rest of the run in my twenties. I've never read it all consecutively and am terrified that Liefeld, within the context of what the title had been previously, is going to hurt. I am not a Liefeld HATER as i know he did do some nice comic work at times yet he is not high upon my totem pole of likes. Sadly enough at the time i did buy/read those Liefeld issues and thankful i don't really remember them at all other than within the vaguest sense of memory like how as a baby you disliked the taste of a certain flavor of baby food. Hopefully you won't be hurt too badly Shaxper and if they really are that painful you can just toss them aside and move on to better!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 1, 2017 21:24:59 GMT -5
Marvel Team-Up #100 (December 1980) Two years before The New Mutants would debut in Marvel Graphic Novel #4, and well over a year before Jim Shooter strong-armed Chris Claremont into planning a second X-Men title, the first New Mutant made her debut here and then promptly fell into obscurity until Claremont needed her again. The story is credited to both Claremont and Frank Miller, and "inspiration" is credited to Ithacon '79. While Karma's ability to control the minds of others is hardly new and different, her back story most certainly is, as it depicts the horrors of growing up in post-war Southern Vietnam and the harsh migration to America with unyielding detail, particularly the part about what happened to the women on the boat after they were seized by Thai pirates. Seriously powerful attempt at diversity that feels in no way forced or artificial. Mutants grow up in other parts of the world too, and some of those places are horrific. You can begin to see, then, why such a big deal is made about Karma here. The big double-sized one hundredth issue of Marvel Team-Up is essentially reserved for her debut, the story even named after her, and the final panels making it clear that we'll all be seeing big things from her soon. But then we don't. I'm still bewildered by how such a fuss can be made about a character who then effectively vanishes. Did Claremont and Miller have any plans for where she would go next? Claremont had total creative control over the X-Men. How hard would it have been to work her into the supporting cast? But no. She totally vanishes, resurrected two years later only when Claremont is building a new team of younger mutants. It's a mystery that I feel unsatisfied leaving unresolved. As for the story itself, you're not missing anything. Spidey gets his mind controlled, gets hurled into a fight with the Fantastic Four, and it all ends up being young Xi'an Coy, attempting to manipulate Spidey to rescue her younger siblings from her evil affluent uncle who is using her brother (who has the same powers) to further his own corporate goals. The uncle and brother detain the younger siblings in the hopes that they will manifest these powers as well. Xi'an just wants her young siblings back and safe. She ends up having to kill her brother, but this moment could have been made a lot more understandable and poignant than it was. Essentially, FANTASTIC representation of a people and part of the world we'd rather not think of, but a so-so story otherwise. Important Details:- 1st appearance of Xi'an Coy Manh (Karma). Kills her brother, who is using the same mutant powers to have the Fantastic Four kill Spider-man. Grade: B-
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 2, 2017 12:34:49 GMT -5
Feel free to call me an infidel and blasphemer, but I cannot abide Bret Blevins's art on this title, and would much rather read the Liefeld issues again than anything Blevins drew. I've seen him do some okay work on other titles, but I just can't with this one. I appreciate that the folks at Marvel were so willing to try all sorts of unusual stuff with New Mutants, especially artistically, but the Blevins experiment was a failure for me. Bleah.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 2, 2017 16:35:36 GMT -5
Admission Guidelines for The Xavier School for the Gifted, A.K.A. "The Jamie Madrox Baseline" Marvel Graphic Novel #4, the debut of The New Mutants, presents a decision that, on its face, seems pretty straightforward. A bunch of mutants discover their powers for the first time or suddenly come in contact with Charles Xavier, and the Professor makes the decision to reopen his school so that he can train them to hone and come to terms with their powers as well as the world around them. I've re-read this story countless times and never thought twice about it beyond the convenience of all these new mutants suddenly dropping on Xavier's porch at one convenient time. But there's something pretty wrong with this: less the idea that he is willing to teach new students, and more the question of why he wasn't taking on new students before this moment. We take for granted the assumption that Xavier's doors are always open to young mutants in need, but when had we ever seen this be the case? Beyond the founding five members and Kitty Pryde, anyone who has ever been brought into those halls between 1965 and 1980 was brought in primarily as a member or ally of The X-Men, Xavier's covert paramilitary group, and not as students in need of a school for mutants. Xavier had Cerebro, a machine capable of detecting mutants all across the world, but when had he ever used that machine to locate confused mutant teenagers in need of guidance and acceptance? Instead, we repeatedly saw that device used to assess and locate mutant threats. X-Men business prevails. It truly seems as if, prior to the moment in Marvel Graphic Novel #4 where Moira MacTaggart talks Xavier into teaching these new students, the school was little more than a sham; a front for The X-Men's operations and nothing more. But let's look even deeper. Why does Xavier consider admitting these students to his school after such a long stretch of not admitting any new students? He doesn't appear to have any plans to turn them into a super team at this point, but he's also not taking open applications and searching across the world for other students to take in. He opts to take in Xi'an Coy, Danielle, and Rahn, (even offering to cover Xi'an's financial needs), stumbling upon the others afterward. Xi'an Coy is there because the Fantastic Four put in a good word for her, Danielle because Xavier had connections with her grandfather, and Rahn because Moira MacTaggart vouched for her. So the name of the game is personal connections -- is that what gets you admitted into Xavier's School? In contrast, let's take a look at Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man, introduced in Giant Size Fantastic Four #4, just a few months ahead of Giant Size X-Men #1. Xavier arrived to help Madrox, a mutant in great physical and emotional crisis whose powers posed a great threat to mankind. Xavier vows to help him at the end of the story, and that's the last we see of him for ages after, finally showing up as an aid to Moira MacTaggart at Muir Isle. Here's a textbook example of someone who needed Xavier's school and was quickly passed off to someone else. It would seem that he lacked a personal connection to Xavier. But it might actually be more insidious than that. After all, the real idea at the center of Xavier's debate in MGN #4 is his belief that the X-Men have just died. We've already explored how the paramilitary aspect of the school seemed to be his true goal all along, Xavier only taking in the first five X-Men in order to have such a team and pretty much closing his doors after. So what is his reason for deciding to reopen the school? If it was out of some sense of nobility, again, he would have extended the application process wider to students who hadn't just coincidentally shown up on his doorstep with some inside connection to him. No, he grabs the first three students he sees, even while he's convinced one of them (Xi'an) is lying to him about her past. The reason why seems obvious: fill in the gap. Deal with the loss of the X-Men by effectively replacing them. Just as he only drafted the first five students because he had use of them, he now takes on this new team for much the same reason -- to fulfill his own personal needs and not theirs. It explains why the team becomes such an afterthought after the X-Men return from the dead. It also explains why poor Jamie Madrox got shuffled off to Muir Isle. Xavier's School truly is nothing more than a front designed to support Xavier's true passion project; the students admitted based upon Xavier's needs and not the needs of the students nor the society to which they belong. And, once those needs no longer exist, what becomes of these new mutants?
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 2, 2017 17:11:24 GMT -5
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Post by String on Feb 2, 2017 18:19:18 GMT -5
Admission Guidelines for The Xavier School for the Gifted, A.K.A. "The Jamie Madrox Baseline" Marvel Graphic Novel #4, the debut of The New Mutants, presents a decision that, on its face, seems pretty straightforward. A bunch of mutants discover their powers for the first time or suddenly come in contact with Charles Xavier, and the Professor makes the decision to reopen his school so that he can train them to hone and come to terms with their powers as well as the world around them. I've re-read this story countless times and never thought twice about it beyond the convenience of all these new mutants suddenly dropping on Xavier's porch at one convenient time. But there's something pretty wrong with this: less the idea that he is willing to teach new students, and more the question of why he wasn't taking on new students before this moment. We take for granted the assumption that Xavier's doors are always open to young mutants in need, but when had we ever seen this be the case? Beyond the founding five members and Kitty Pryde, anyone who has ever been brought into those halls between 1965 and 1980 was brought in primarily as a member or ally of The X-Men, Xavier's covert paramilitary group, and not as students in need of a school for mutants. Xavier had Cerebro, a machine capable of detecting mutants all across the world, but when had he ever used that machine to locate confused mutant teenagers in need of guidance and acceptance? Instead, we repeatedly saw that device used to assess and locate mutant threats. X-Men business prevails. It truly seems as if, prior to the moment in Marvel Graphic Novel #4 where Moira MacTaggart talks Xavier into teaching these new students, the school was little more than a sham; a front for The X-Men's operations and nothing more. But let's look even deeper. Why does Xavier consider admitting these students to his school after such a long stretch of not admitting any new students? He doesn't appear to have any plans to turn them into a super team at this point, but he's also not taking open applications and searching across the world for other students to take in. He opts to take in Xi'an Coy, Danielle, and Rahn, (even offering to cover Xi'an's financial needs), stumbling upon the others afterward. Xi'an Coy is there because the Fantastic Four put in a good word for her, Danielle because Xavier had connections with her grandfather, and Rahn because Moira MacTaggart vouched for her. So the name of the game is personal connections -- is that what gets you admitted into Xavier's School? In contrast, let's take a look at Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man, introduced in Giant Size Fantastic Four #4, just a few months ahead of Giant Size X-Men #1. Xavier arrived to help Madrox, a mutant in great physical and emotional crisis whose powers posed a great threat to mankind. Xavier vows to help him at the end of the story, and that's the last we see of him for ages after, finally showing up as an aid to Moira MacTaggart at Muir Isle. Here's a textbook example of someone who needed Xavier's school and was quickly passed off to someone else. It would seem that he lacked a personal connection to Xavier. But it might actually be more insidious than that. After all, the real idea at the center of Xavier's debate in MGN #4 is his belief that the X-Men have just died. We've already explored how the paramilitary aspect of the school seemed to be his true goal all along, Xavier only taking in the first five X-Men in order to have such a team and pretty much closing his doors after. So what is his reason for deciding to reopen the school? If it was out of some sense of nobility, again, he would have extended the application process wider to students who hadn't just coincidentally shown up on his doorstep with some inside connection to him. No, he grabs the first three students he sees, even while he's convinced one of them (Xi'an) is lying to him about her past. The reason why seems obvious: fill in the gap. Deal with the loss of the X-Men by effectively replacing them. Just as he only drafted the first five students because he had use of them, he now takes on this new team for much the same reason -- to fulfill his own personal needs and not theirs. It explains why the team becomes such an afterthought after the X-Men return fromt he dead. It also explains why poor Jamie Madrox got shuffled off to Muir Isle. Xavier's School truly is nothing more than a front designed to support Xavier's true passion project; the students admitted based upon Xavier's needs and not the needs of the students nor the society to which they belong. ...or it's all narrative convenience and lazy writing that depends too much upon coincidence. Some good insights here, much of which I would initially agree with. But I think part of this hearkens even more to the basic ideal of Xavier's dream: peaceful co-existence between mutants and humans. But what has he and the X-Men actually done to foster this? Far too many of their actions were reactive in nature. It's been awhile since I read any of the New Mutants. My favorite is and remains Illyana. I consider her friendship with Kitty to be one of the strongest and best of the teams overall. But I could not stand Warlock, he's one reason why I stopped reading the book for a time. I remember the hype and buzz of Liefeld at that time. I've never had a problem with his work and his style alongside Louise Simonson did bolster the overall quality of the book. Based on your suggestions here, it's not a stretch to see how Cable was able to more militarize the group given how they were shuffled to the side-lines so long ago upon the return of the main X-team.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 2, 2017 21:35:21 GMT -5
Tom Orzechoski was thrilled, I recall, to actually see his work immortalized via cosplay!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 2, 2017 21:38:03 GMT -5
But I think part of this hearkens even more to the basic ideal of Xavier's dream: peaceful co-existence between mutants and humans. But what has he and the X-Men actually done to foster this? Far too many of their actions were reactive in nature. And, of course, the true reason for it all is, if Xavier truly committed himself to the work that does create peaceful co-existence, it would have made for a lousy comic book, much like my controversial argument on Why Bruce Wayne Can't Be Socially Conscious. I could not agree more! Whenever Warlock wasn't working for me as a character, the art always made it worthwhile instead. I may feel very differently approaching it as a more well-read adult, though.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 2, 2017 22:15:25 GMT -5
Feel free to call me an infidel and blasphemer, but I cannot abide Bret Blevins's art on this title, and would much rather read the Liefeld issues again than anything Blevins drew. I've seen him do some okay work on other titles, but I just can't with this one. I appreciate that the folks at Marvel were so willing to try all sorts of unusual stuff with New Mutants, especially artistically, but the Blevins experiment was a failure for me. Bleah. He was really good with Warlock, I think, but yeah, the style didn't really apply to anything else.
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