shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 8:41:28 GMT -5
Incredible Hulk #180 vs #181 Inspired by the Most Overrated/Most Overpriced Comic thread, I'd like to settle this one once and for all -- what is the true first appearance of Wolverine? In the process of discussing this, I suspect the larger issue we'll get into is what a first appearance actually is and why we value them. Should be fun. So here we go. I'm going to make my case right here as to why Incredible Hulk #180 is the true first appearance of Wolverine, as well as why it should be the more desired/collectible of the two books. Point #1: It's the first time we see WolverineObvious, but not to be understated. If you truly want to see the first time the character was put into print, this is where it happened: Not an advertisement; not a solicit for the next issue. Wolverine is in the end of this issue. Point #2: He's different in the next issueIf the reason you collect first appearances is to be able to look back on what the character was like when he first appeared, Herb Trimpe has already adjusted Wolverine's look by the time of #181: This is not how Wolverine looked in his first iteration. The eyes and "ears" have already been altered, and those claws look more like razors and less like metal bones now. Point #3: What does #181 give you that #180 doesn't?#180 gave us a clear look at Wolverine and provided him with a name. #181 gives us more time with the character, but everything we're shown and told in the span of that issue is incorrect; none of it represents the character Wolverine ultimately becomes, from his wise-cracking, Spider-Man like persona and assurance that "moving is the thing I do best!": (in fact, we're repeatedly reminded in this issue that speed is his most notable ability...) to the complete breakdown we get of his abilities: Speed and strength are not abilities we think of when we conjure images of Wolverine today. Please also note: he is knocked out with poison gas in this story, and no mention is ever made of a healing factor (which, in later issues, made him immune to poison gas). Len Wein and Chris Claremont also made it clear in later interviews that Wolverine's claws were originally supposed to be attached to the gloves, not his hands; it is never suggested in this story that his claws are actually an ability of his. So, essentially, everything we're told about his abilities and persona in this issue ends up being wrong (beyond someone making reference to his having a few "psychological kinks" that we're never shown). In no way does #181 expand our understanding of the character or show us anything important that #180 didn't. All we get is more pages of him. Point #4: Don't give me that cameo nonsenseThe biggest reason I've been given over the years as to why #180 is not Wolverine's true first appearance is that it's a cameo. I've already outlined why #181 doesn't show/tell us anything about Wolverine that the final panel of #180 didn't, but let's do a little comparison, then. Fantastic Four #48 is considered to be the first appearance of Galactus, all because of the final panel of that issue: Hmmmm...single panel first appearance at the very end of the issue. No one ever tries to claim that FF #49 is the issue to grab if you really want Galactus' first appearance (at least no one I've ever talked to). If you want the first time that character was ever committed to ink and benday dots, folks pretty much agree this is it. Why does the same logic not pertain to Wolverine? Just because Galactus gets mentioned on the cover? Here's what I consider to be a good example of a cameo first appearance: X-Men Annual #14: This is the cameo first appearance of Gambit, and there are several reasons why I can accept that: 1) You can't fully see the character, and 2) This appearance is not only brief; it's also incidental to the plot. Gambit has no impact upon this story: he is merely named and sort of almost seen while lurking in shadows. A collector who wanted to truly see his first appearance in a comic book would be disappointed by these panels, as opposed to getting a full glimpse of the character as he interacts with the story in Uncanny X-Men #266. So that's what I've got. We truly see him in #180, he already looks different in #181, nothing we learn about him in #181 enhances our understanding of the character, and how can his appearance in #180 be a cameo if Galactus' appearance in FF #48 isn't? Counterpoints?
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2017 8:58:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I have never understood why #181 is considered his first appearance by anyone. He is there in #180. He's named, he speaks, he is very obviously present in the story. It is clearly his first appearance.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Feb 26, 2017 9:44:01 GMT -5
Why is there any doubt about this?
If a baby is declared born on May 1st at 11:59 P.M. then May 1st is his birthday.
Who would ever say the birthday is May 2nd because May 1st was just a cameo appearance?
Answer this before choosing Hulk #181
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 9:44:45 GMT -5
If a baby is declared born on May 1st at 11:59 P.M. then May 1st is his birthday. I love this analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 9:44:49 GMT -5
Galactus is touted on the cover to FF #48. I'm not saying I agree with the cameo/first appearance distinction, but I do think that's a considerable difference between the two issues.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 9:47:43 GMT -5
Galactus is touted on the cover to FF #48. I'm not saying I agree with the cameo/first appearance distinction, but I do think that's a considerable difference between the two issues. The cover does seem to be the determining factor in a lot of contested first appearances. More Fun Comics #52 is unequivocally considered The Spectre's first appearance: Even though the Spectre doesn't actually appear until the next issue. But isn't the cover an advertisement? It's not part of the story. Yet when a character first appears in an interior solicitation (not as part of the actual story) it's never considered a first appearance. Back when people actually cared about Cable, no one counted New Mutants #86 as his first appearance: It's a solicitation. I would argue a cover is no different.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 9:48:35 GMT -5
Maybe it's because I associate key issue collecting with displaying said comic, but I don't get the first appearance thing at all. I'd much rather have first cover appearance. In fact, that's why I got a nice copy of UXM #139 instead of #129. Sure Kitty is in #129, but if she's the reason I got the issue I wanna see her when I look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 9:54:45 GMT -5
Even though the Spectre doesn't actually appear until the next issue. But isn't the cover an advertisement? It's not part of the story. Yet when a character first appears in an interior solicitation (not as part of the actual story) it's never considered a first appearance. To me, and perhaps me alone, a cover has more "clout" when it comes to things like first appearance than an interior panel. I can't really explain why, but the Wolverine panel, while not an ad, feels more like one than a cover does. It may go back to my connection with this topic and collecting books for display.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 9:57:25 GMT -5
Even though the Spectre doesn't actually appear until the next issue. But isn't the cover an advertisement? It's not part of the story. Yet when a character first appears in an interior solicitation (not as part of the actual story) it's never considered a first appearance. To me, and perhaps me alone, a cover has more "clout" when it comes to things like first appearance than an interior panel. I can't really explain why, but the Wolverine panel, while not an ad, feels more like one than a cover does. It may go back to my connection with this topic and collecting books for display. To be fair, it doesn't have to make sense. Collectibility is based upon perceived demand, which is based upon emotion. And covers have tremendous appeal. You have to purposefully open a book to see its interior. The cover is always there. But I'll also say that you are in a unique minority expressing an interest only in cover first appearances. Most fans who are clamoring over Hulk #181 don't think/feel like that.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 26, 2017 10:04:48 GMT -5
I've always considered Hulk #180 as Wolverine's first appearance, and it is so listed in my Marvel Universe character index. I've never heard a compelling reason to think otherwise.
Cei-U! I summon the end of story!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 10:19:00 GMT -5
And covers have tremendous appeal. You have to purposefully open a book to see its interior. The cover is always there. But I'll also say that you are in a unique minority expressing an interest only in cover first appearances. Most fans who are clamoring over Hulk #181 don't think/feel like that. The first paragraph is why I'm so surprised that the second is true. But going into that opens a whole other discussion that is best left for another thread. For me, if it is clear the character is part of the story and I can clearly see them, that's a first appearance. So, #180 is Wolverine's first appearance. #181 is obviously the much more important issue, as first cover appearance, though.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 10:20:28 GMT -5
But going into that opens a whole other discussion that is best left for another thread. Bring it on
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2017 10:36:12 GMT -5
And covers have tremendous appeal. You have to purposefully open a book to see its interior. The cover is always there. But I'll also say that you are in a unique minority expressing an interest only in cover first appearances. Most fans who are clamoring over Hulk #181 don't think/feel like that. The first paragraph is why I'm so surprised that the second is true. But going into that opens a whole other discussion that is best left for another thread. For me, if it is clear the character is part of the story and I can clearly see them, that's a first appearance. So, #180 is Wolverine's first appearance. #181 is obviously the much more important issue, as first cover appearance, though.Why is it? I'm sorry, but I just don't see that. What's so important about covers? Namor first appeared in Marvel Comics #1, but did not appear on a cover until #4. Judge Dredd first appeared in 2000 AD #2, in 1977. His first appearance on a cover was in #5. In neither case would the first cover appearance be considered more significant.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 10:42:10 GMT -5
The first paragraph is why I'm so surprised that the second is true. But going into that opens a whole other discussion that is best left for another thread. For me, if it is clear the character is part of the story and I can clearly see them, that's a first appearance. So, #180 is Wolverine's first appearance. #181 is obviously the much more important issue, as first cover appearance, though.Why is it? I'm sorry, but I just don't see that. What's so important about covers? Namor first appeared in Marvel Comics #1, but did not appear on a cover until #4. Judge Dredd first appeared in 2000 AD #2, in 1977. His first appearance on a cover was in #5. In neither case would the first cover appearance be considered more significant. Well, to connect it to Needs' earlier post, he means "obviously" from his standpoint, based upon his own personal criteria that he outlined here: Even though the Spectre doesn't actually appear until the next issue. But isn't the cover an advertisement? It's not part of the story. Yet when a character first appears in an interior solicitation (not as part of the actual story) it's never considered a first appearance. To me, and perhaps me alone, a cover has more "clout" when it comes to things like first appearance than an interior panel. I can't really explain why, but the Wolverine panel, while not an ad, feels more like one than a cover does. It may go back to my connection with this topic and collecting books for display. I agree that it doesn't apply well to most other collectors.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 11:06:41 GMT -5
Great thread. I agree #180 is Wolverine's first appearance but I also understand the concept of the cover issue needs brought up.
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