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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 26, 2017 17:05:41 GMT -5
Does CGC state that as first cameo appearance of first full?
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2017 17:09:53 GMT -5
Just to muddy the waters a little, in my indexing work I use "cameo" to mean an appearance of that character not otherwise part of the narrative, as in a photograph or painting, in flashback to a previous story, or in the minds' eye of another character. It's a narrower use of the term than, say, the Overstreet Guide prefers but I find its precision useful in discussions like this. By that standard, Wolverine's appearance in Hulk #180 is not a cameo, nor are Superman and Batman's in All-Star #7, nor the one-panel appearances of Dracula, Man-Thing, and Adam Warlock in Avengers #118. Cei-U! You're welcome!  See!!? What he said!!! |
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Post by tingramretro on Feb 26, 2017 17:13:21 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the way grading companies like CGC state the appearance. As PM stated, they note it as a first appearance and that it is a cameo. Wolverine comes in at the very end and has nothing to do with that plot line other than to set up the next story (yes, they mention sending him in earlier in the story but I still don't think that plays a major factor in the battle happening between Wendigo and Hulk). #181 is his first full appearance and I can see why it gets the love. You have him on the cover, fighting Hulk with Wendigo in the background. It is just a beautiful, action packed cover. So should that affect the value? I think so. Let's say you are talking about some famous painter. Now maybe their first painting fetches a pretty piece of coin or the first time they use a certain technique in their art. But a painting that people generally like more always fetches more. Something classic, timeless and identifiable. This is why people put all the value on Hulk #181. And yes, you may have some people call it a first appearance (which it is) but I think simply correcting them that it is his first full appearance is all that needs to be said. As for changing the value or demand for #181...it won't happen. And I don't think it should. Superior cover, superior story (even if it is not accurate to the Wolverine we know today...I mean, which first appearance really still holds up to the original portrayal) and its a full issue. Now why is this not the case for FF #48? Well, his name is on the cover so you know he is coming. Also a number of elements in the story are central to setting up his arrival. While it is just a one page appearance at the end, I feel that story does more and is more of a first true appearance. Do people seek Hulk #181 without giving #180 a look? I don't think so but I think they lean towards #181 more so because of that cover and (assuming they know comics) knowing that he just pops up at the end of the previous story. All that just sounds totally arbitrary to me. |
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Post by Red Oak Kid on Feb 26, 2017 18:13:50 GMT -5
Until this thread, I was unaware that Wolverine had appeared anywhere before Hulk 181.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 19:31:30 GMT -5
Nevermind. Don't care anymore.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 19:56:04 GMT -5
Does CGC state that as first cameo appearance of first full? It does the whole have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too, where #180 is the 1st appearance (cameo), and #181 is the first appearance (full). But I don't acknowledge CGC as a credible expert on the subject just because people willingly give them their money. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 26, 2017 19:59:30 GMT -5
Does CGC state that as first cameo appearance of first full? It does the whole have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too, where #180 is the 1st appearance (cameo), and #181 is the first appearance (full). But I don't acknowledge CGC as a credible expert on the subject just because people willingly give them their money. Sorry I meant do they call the Darkseid app in Jimmy Olsen #134 a cameo first? Because if they are at least differentiating and being consistent between cameo first and first full appearance, I see no reason why that cannot be accepted. Not saying I am a proponent of CGC either, just saying in terms of how they should be referenced in general. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 26, 2017 20:03:06 GMT -5
It does the whole have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too, where #180 is the 1st appearance (cameo), and #181 is the first appearance (full). But I don't acknowledge CGC as a credible expert on the subject just because people willingly give them their money. Sorry I meant do they call the Darkseid app in Jimmy Olsen #134 a cameo first? Because if they are at least differentiating and being consistent between cameo first and first full appearance, I see no reason why that cannot be accepted. Not saying I am a proponent of CGC either, just saying in terms of how they should be referenced in general. Ah, gotcha now. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 26, 2017 20:04:49 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the way grading companies like CGC state the appearance. As PM stated, they note it as a first appearance and that it is a cameo. Wolverine comes in at the very end and has nothing to do with that plot line other than to set up the next story (yes, they mention sending him in earlier in the story but I still don't think that plays a major factor in the battle happening between Wendigo and Hulk). #181 is his first full appearance and I can see why it gets the love. You have him on the cover, fighting Hulk with Wendigo in the background. It is just a beautiful, action packed cover. So should that affect the value? I think so. Let's say you are talking about some famous painter. Now maybe their first painting fetches a pretty piece of coin or the first time they use a certain technique in their art. But a painting that people generally like more always fetches more. Something classic, timeless and identifiable. This is why people put all the value on Hulk #181. And yes, you may have some people call it a first appearance (which it is) but I think simply correcting them that it is his first full appearance is all that needs to be said. As for changing the value or demand for #181...it won't happen. And I don't think it should. Superior cover, superior story (even if it is not accurate to the Wolverine we know today...I mean, which first appearance really still holds up to the original portrayal) and its a full issue. Now why is this not the case for FF #48? Well, his name is on the cover so you know he is coming. Also a number of elements in the story are central to setting up his arrival. While it is just a one page appearance at the end, I feel that story does more and is more of a first true appearance. Do people seek Hulk #181 without giving #180 a look? I don't think so but I think they lean towards #181 more so because of that cover and (assuming they know comics) knowing that he just pops up at the end of the previous story. All that just sounds totally arbitrary to me. Yeah I don't know if my thoughts were organized to well here...basically, if a first full appearance (defined by me as appearing on the cover or more than a page/panel) looks better then I see no reason why it cannot command the bigger value than a first appearance/first cameo appearance (defined by me as any technical first appearance which is limited to a page or panel at most). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 20:14:04 GMT -5
You can label it whatever way you want, and the veracity of which is the true first appearance can be debated all you want, but it's all pretty irrelevant to the market, which has already spoken.
Yes, people are looking for 181 and don't give 180 a thought. The show I was at today case in point. I saw several dealers with copies of both 181 and 180 for sale, usually the 180 being a higher grade and lower priced. People were asking all day to see the 181s, and I saw 2 copies sell. When I talked to the dealers their sentiment was all the same, I shouldn't have bothered to bring the 180s, no one asked about them all day, no one bought them, and no one made offers on them except for 1, a guy asked if he bought 181 would the dealer throw in the 180 as well since it's such an overrated useless book. Obviously the dealer said no, but that's the sentiment that is out there in the market right now and I can't say I can blame people. If I am going to shell out money for a high priced key book of a favorite character-what would I rather spend it on, a book where he is in 1 panel even if it's the first panel with him in it, of the first book with a story featuring him that I can read with him in it and see him in action. The book featuring him in the spotlight would get my money every time.
-M
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Feb 26, 2017 20:16:10 GMT -5
Sorry I meant do they call the Darkseid app in Jimmy Olsen #134 a cameo first? Because if they are at least differentiating and being consistent between cameo first and first full appearance, I see no reason why that cannot be accepted. Not saying I am a proponent of CGC either, just saying in terms of how they should be referenced in general. Ah, gotcha now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree, Hulk #180 should say first appearance. The fact the higher powers deem it a cameo is fine, and they note as such. I was curious if other minor first appearances do the same. I get that other minor first appearances (like FF #48) may not say cameo because they are deemed "full" enough. How that is decided I do not know. Perhaps FF #48 should say cameo in brackets if it does not already. Now, as I understand and believe, FF #48 will still get top value because the Surfer makes a full appearance, as someone else stated here. That and both #48 and #49 are equally iconic. #48 is general 2 to 3 times as much. This is a much closer price gap than Hulk #180 and 181 but again, I think that cover really is what sells it for Wolverine.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 26, 2017 23:19:13 GMT -5
Jimmy Olsen #134 is listed as a cameo by CGC, but it also just shows how arbitrarily fickle comic collectors are, because despite Darkseid only appearing in that one tiny panel as a face on a TV screen, JO #134 is still the book to have for Darksed collectors, rather than Forever People #1, which is his first "full" appearance. A very close parallel to Hulk #180 and #181 is the relationship between ASM #299 and #300. #299 has an even bigger appearance than Hulk #180 has, but #300 is still considered the book to have. And Venom isn't even on the cover. From #299:   I think to a large degree, desirability is driven by hype, rather than any kind of reality. I also think there are two other things going on in concert. First, old school fans wanted to track down books to read the stories - so even though now that's unnecessary because of reprints, things like IH #181 still have additional value as a carryover from those days. And two, in an age when people don't need to read the books, back issues as collectibles are more to look at for many people - whether they are displayed or not - meaning covers are king. For my money, IH #180 is more important than #181, and I think it's goofy that #180 is ignored, just like people valuing ASM #300 over #299. But a lot of what other people collect seems idiotic to me, so... |
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Post by james on Feb 27, 2017 3:16:29 GMT -5
Jimmy Olsen #134 is listed as a cameo by CGC, but it also just shows how arbitrarily fickle comic collectors are, because despite Darkseid only appearing in that one tiny panel as a face on a TV screen, JO #134 is still the book to have for Darksed collectors, rather than Forever People #1, which is his first "full" appearance. A very close parallel to Hulk #180 and #181 is the relationship between ASM #299 and #300. #299 has an even bigger appearance than Hulk #180 has, but #300 is still considered the book to have. And Venom isn't even on the cover. From #299: I think to a large degree, desirability is driven by hype, rather than any kind of reality. I also think there are two other things going on in concert. First, old school fans wanted to track down books to read the stories - so even though now that's unnecessary because of reprints, things like IH #181 still have additional value as a carryover from those days. And two, in an age when people don't need to read the books, back issues as collectibles are more to look at for many people - whether they are displayed or not - meaning covers are king. For my money, IH #180 is more important than #181, and I think it's goofy that #180 is ignored, just like people valuing ASM #300 over #299. But a lot of what other people collect seems idiotic to me, so... True but Venom is not on the cover of 299 and isn't featured on a cover till 316. |
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Post by Red Oak Kid on Feb 27, 2017 8:47:15 GMT -5
I agree with mrp. The market has spoken. Even if all the reference books said 180 was THE first appearance, people would still gravitate toward 181 for their own reasons. Probably because Wolverine is shown on the cover and mentioned by name. I'm not saying it is right or that I agree with their thinking, I'm just saying 181 is the issue the mass of collectors have decided to spend their money on.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 27, 2017 8:55:32 GMT -5
You can label it whatever way you want, and the veracity of which is the true first appearance can be debated all you want, but it's all pretty irrelevant to the market, which has already spoken. I don't entirely agree. Your anecdotal evidence is meaningful in that it reflects the attitudes and behaviors of many people you encountered that day, but they do not reflect the overall market. #180 has jumped in price far more than #181 has in the past ten years. Fifteen years back, the going price for a NM #181 was $800, and a NM #180 was around $80. #180's price has multiplied by a factor of ten since that time. #181 has multiplied by less than a factor of 4. Market corrections are often slow because there are people helping to set those prices who don't intend to lose out on their initial investment, but the narrative the market is telling now is that people are coming around on #180, even while #181 remains more desirable. |
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