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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 30, 2017 4:40:23 GMT -5
Hmm, I don't think I ever saw a Borg episode that was bad. I believe there was one where they captured a young Borg and kind of adopted him, or something like that? I had already stopped watching the series at this point so never saw the episode, just heard about it, but it sounded like a bad idea to me. Yes. You're right it was a boring episode but they picked up with a great 2 parter years later in ST: Voyager that introduced Seven of Nine.  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2017 8:52:15 GMT -5
Trek, at it's heart, was about ideas, ethics, morality, philosophy, and social justice. Star Wars, at its heart, was a canned Joseph Cambell adventure with some great visuals and special effects. Neither were really about space, and that makes the two very difficult to compare. If you care more about action and excitement, you're a Star Wars fan. If you care more about ideas, you're a Star Trek fan. If you care more about memorable characters, you could be either. I really disagree with parts of this. Star Wars has never just been about action and great visuals. At its heart, it has also always been about the triumph of the human spirit over technology, with elements of philosophy thrown in as well. Star Wars is NOT all surface and no depth. The best of those films has real heart. I also reject the idea behind the part I bolded; I'm definitely not someone who is a fan of action films. I like films that stimulate me intellectually and philosophically, and Star Wars certainly can do that. Star Wars is fast paced and action packed, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that. I guess I honestly don't see your point. Star Wars works in some extremely light, surface imitations of Eastern philosophy, but beyond that -- what ideas? I can honestly say that much of my fundamental moral beliefs were extracted from Jean Luc Picard. I don't think the few catch phrases of wisdom offered by Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi could have done the same for me. The best Trek episodes were explorations of ideas and convictions. Star Wars is about beating the bad guy without ever really asking the question of what makes the bad guy bad, the good guys good, or mass violence against the bad guys acceptable. Yes, I feel for these characters at times (especially in the second film) but that's not primarily what draws people to the franchise. Thus I think the predominate appeal of Star Wars is the visuals, the effects, the action, those walking AT-STs, flashing lightsabers, and screeching TIE-fighters. Trek is far more substantive talking and far less visual and action. It's exactly why Trek has never adapted well to the movie screen. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 30, 2017 9:40:02 GMT -5
I really disagree with parts of this. Star Wars has never just been about action and great visuals. At its heart, it has also always been about the triumph of the human spirit over technology, with elements of philosophy thrown in as well. Star Wars is NOT all surface and no depth. The best of those films has real heart. I also reject the idea behind the part I bolded; I'm definitely not someone who is a fan of action films. I like films that stimulate me intellectually and philosophically, and Star Wars certainly can do that. Star Wars is fast paced and action packed, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that. I guess I honestly don't see your point. Star Wars works in some extremely light, surface imitations of Eastern philosophy, but beyond that -- what ideas? I can honestly say that much of my fundamental moral beliefs were extracted from Jean Luc Picard. I don't think the few catch phrases of wisdom offered by Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi could have done the same for me. The best Trek episodes were explorations of ideas and convictions. Star Wars is about beating the bad guy without ever really asking the question of what makes the bad guy bad, the good guys good, or mass violence against the bad guys acceptable. Yes, I feel for these characters at times (especially in the second film) but that's not primarily what draws people to the franchise. Thus I think the predominate appeal of Star Wars is the visuals, the effects, the action, those walking AT-STs, flashing lightsabers, and screeching TIE-fighters. Trek is far more substantive talking and far less visual and action. It's exactly why Trek has never adapted well to the movie screen. I'm not disagreeing with anything that you're saying about Star Trek at all, but I really think you're giving short shrift to Star Wars. I'm sure you're right that for a lot of people, the thing that attracts them towards Star Wars is the visual spectacle, but those people are really missing a trick. As an aside, that was a lot of my problem with The Force Awakens actually: it lacked heart and any kind of great, philosophical message or even any memorable quotes. Who knew that all the general public really wanted from a good Star Wars film was big explosions?   While it's true that Star Wars does borrow from Eastern philosophy and a well worn "hero's journey" storytelling motif, does that really matter in the final evaluation? Just like you with Jean Luc Picard, I can absolutely say that certain actions undertaken by various characters in Star Wars or things they've uttered have absolutely informed and inspired my world view as an adult. Just as one example, there is real wisdom in Yoda's advice to Luke Skywalker to "Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try." Just think about that for a second. Think about what it's actually saying. What a fantastic philosophy to base your every endeavour on, no matter how great or small. Another beautiful nugget of wisdom from Star Wars that I have dropped into everyday conversation many times came from the mouth of Qui-Gon Jinn, when he told Anakin Skywalker, "Your focus determines your reality." I'm sorry, but that is just simply incredibly profound. What we focus on in our lives -- in terms of our surroundings, our fellow human beings and the wider world -- really does determine the reality of our daily lives. That reality can, in turn, blind us to other points of view. Another of my favourite nuggets of wisdom is Yoda's warning that, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." How true we can see that to be today in our increasingly isolationist post-9/11 world. That is real wisdom. The fact that it's uttered by a latex puppet is irrelevant. Other pearls of wisdom found in Star Wars would be that when judging people's power or influence, their psychical stature matters not. Or how about the lesson that faith in your friends is a strength, not a weakness? Or that partaking in many wars or battles does not, in and of itself, make a person great. I also often remind myself of Qui-Gon's words from The Phantom Menace, "there's always a bigger fish", because there is always someone better than you at whatever it is that you're trying to do, so we need to remain humble and live our lives without comparing them to how other people live theirs. That's practically Buddhist in its intent.  Of course, the most important lesson of all that the Star Wars franchise has taught us is that if it smells bad on the outside, it's probably worse on the inside!  Obviously I'm being flippant there, but rest assured, I've only skimmed the surface with these few examples that came readily to my mind while writing this reply. You could easily write a whole book on Star Wars's various philosophical messages and its ability to educate and enlighten. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 30, 2017 9:43:01 GMT -5
Like many themes/stories/ideas in TNG, the Borg were amazing at first, but really got overused and depowered over time. They are clearly the closest to Vader visually, but if you want an arch nemesis, it's Q. Hmm, I don't think I ever saw a Borg episode that was bad. I think they ruined the Borg by giving them a queen. The whole point of the Borg was that there were no individuals and all their power and intelligence was spread evenly throughout the whole "community." It's what made them interesting. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2017 9:59:10 GMT -5
I guess I honestly don't see your point. Star Wars works in some extremely light, surface imitations of Eastern philosophy, but beyond that -- what ideas? I can honestly say that much of my fundamental moral beliefs were extracted from Jean Luc Picard. I don't think the few catch phrases of wisdom offered by Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi could have done the same for me. The best Trek episodes were explorations of ideas and convictions. Star Wars is about beating the bad guy without ever really asking the question of what makes the bad guy bad, the good guys good, or mass violence against the bad guys acceptable. Yes, I feel for these characters at times (especially in the second film) but that's not primarily what draws people to the franchise. Thus I think the predominate appeal of Star Wars is the visuals, the effects, the action, those walking AT-STs, flashing lightsabers, and screeching TIE-fighters. Trek is far more substantive talking and far less visual and action. It's exactly why Trek has never adapted well to the movie screen. I'm not disagreeing with anything that you're saying about Star Trek at all, but I really think you're giving short shrift to Star Wars. I'm sure you're right that for a lot of people, the thing that attracts them towards Star Wars is the visual spectacle, but those people are really missing a trick. As an aside, that was a lot of my problem with The Force Awakens actually: it lacked heart and any kind of great, philosophical message or even any memorable quotes. Who knew that all the general public really wanted from a good Star Wars film was big explosions? While it's true that Star Wars does borrow from Eastern philosophy and a well worn "hero's journey" storytelling motif, does that really matter in the final evaluation? Just like you with Jean Luc Picard, I can absolutely say that certain actions undertaken by various characters in Star Wars or things they've uttered have absolutely informed and inspired my world view as an adult. Just as one example, there is real wisdom in Yoda's advice to Luke Skywalker to "Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try." Just think about that for a second. Think about what it's actually saying. What a fantastic philosophy to base your every endeavour on, no matter how great or small. Another beautiful nugget of wisdom from Star Wars that I have dropped into everyday conversation many times came from the mouth of Qui-Gon Jinn, when he told Anakin Skywalker, "Your focus determines your reality." I'm sorry, but that is just simply incredibly profound. What we focus on in our lives -- in terms of our surroundings, our fellow human beings and the wider world -- really does determine the reality of our daily lives. That reality can, in turn, blind us to other points of view. Another of my favourite nuggets of wisdom is Yoda's warning that, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." How true we can see that to be today in our increasingly isolationist post-9/11 world. That is real wisdom. The fact that it's uttered by a latex puppet is irrelevant. Other pearls of wisdom found in Star Wars would be that when judging people's power or influence, their psychical stature matters not. Or how about the lesson that faith in your friends is a strength, not a weakness? Or that partaking in many wars or battles does not, in and of itself, make a person great. I also often remind myself of Qui-Gon's words from The Phantom Menace, "there's always a bigger fish", because there is always someone better than you at whatever it is that you're trying to do, so we need to remain humble and live our lives without comparing them to how other people live theirs. That's practically Buddhist in its intent. Of course, the most important lesson of all that the Star Wars franchise has taught us is that if it smells bad on the outside, it's probably worse on the inside! Obviously I'm being flippant there, but rest assured, I've only skimmed the surface with these few examples that came readily to my mind while writing this reply. You could easily write a whole book on Star Wars's various philosophical messages and its ability to educate and enlighten. Excellent examples, and well argued. I would still argue that these nuggets of wisdom are seasoning sprinkled onto the films as opposed to evidence of a substantive core, but I can see how you draw inspiration from these moments and am impressed, seeing them in this context. Star Trek devotes entire episodes to thoroughly exploring an idea or ideal. Star Wars gives it a fortune cookie line -- a good fortune cookie line, mind you |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 30, 2017 9:59:30 GMT -5
That's right. She was added in the motion picture.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2017 10:01:14 GMT -5
That's right. She was added in the motion picture. First Contact. She then subsequently appeared in Voyager. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 30, 2017 10:08:40 GMT -5
Star Trek devotes entire episodes to thoroughly exploring an idea or ideal. Star Wars gives it a fortune cookie line -- a good fortune cookie line, mind you You say "fortune cookie", whereas I prefer to see a beautiful Haiku. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2017 10:09:52 GMT -5
You say "fortune cookie", whereas I prefer to see a beautiful Haiku. I think more fortune cookies should be written as beautiful haikus. Then we'd both win. |
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 30, 2017 11:17:55 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a generational divide that affects whether one has greater enthusiasm for Star Wars or Star Trek? Kids who grew up in the 80s like myself have a tremendous affection and nostalgia for Star Wars, one that seems to transcend one's disposition towards other "geeky" forms of entertainment. Lots of people my age grew up with the films, playing with the toys, owning Star Wars lunchboxes, etc. Probably most guys my age look back fondly on Star Wars and at the very least will continue to see any new movies that come out based on that nostalgia. In contrast, I could count on one hand the number of friends I grew up with who were into Star Trek.
The question of which is "better" could be looked at a couple of different ways. In terms of overall quality, it's arguable which franchise is better. Both have had their high points and low points, so it's hard to say.
Thematically, Star Trek has more thoughtful storylines and sophisticated ideas. It's the more cerebral of the two (excepting the recent films), and is more obviously aimed at adults. On the other hand, George Lucas has gone on record as saying that Star Wars is meant to be entertainment for children. Star Wars is escapist fantasy that deals with mythic themes (good vs. evil, the hero's journey, etc), whereas Star Trek has historically drawn inspiration from real world issues and conflicts presented in the window dressing of science fiction.
I will say that the one area that the stewards of Star Wars have surpassed those of Star Trek is growing the fan base, particularly by attracting younger fans. From my own observations, the Star Trek fanbase is aging, and they haven't been able to sell the appeal of Star Trek to kids and teens. The Abram films are definite departure from the rest of the franchise in terms of tone, and appears to be Paramount's attempt to make Star Trek cool with kids, but just from what I've observed, it doesn't seem to be catching on with them. I see lots of kids running around in Star Wars t-shirts or playing with Star Wars toys, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a kid wearing Star Trek-themed clothes or playing with Star Trek toys. It remains to be seen how the new TV show will shake up the fanbase, but if I were a betting man, Star Wars seems to have a much brighter (and more profitable) future between the two.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2017 11:29:56 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a generational divide that affects whether one has greater enthusiasm for Star Wars or Star Trek? Kids who grew up in the 80s like myself have a tremendous affection and nostalgia for Star Wars, one that seems to transcend one's disposition towards other "geeky" forms of entertainment. I grew up in the '80s. I recall Star Wars dominating playtime and toy aisles in the early part of my childhood, falling into yard sale obscurity, and developing a resurgence in the early '90s that culminated in the release of the Power of the Force figures. I also recall Star Trek TNG dominating mainstream popular culture in the early '90s. For me, Star Wars was nostalgic kids stuff whereas Trek appealed to my newfound adolescent maturity. I thoroughly agree with this. Trek hasn't put out anything truly worthy of a fan base since Deep Space Nine. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 30, 2017 11:40:15 GMT -5
On the other hand, George Lucas has gone on record as saying that Star Wars is meant to be entertainment for children. He might've said that following the negative reception that many old fans gave the prequel trilogy, but Lucas's original stance was that he created SW for "the child in all of us" (quoting from his notes in the 1976 Star Wars novelization). Far from being just a kiddie's film, Lucas envisioned the original trilogy as appealing to kids and adults alike. He even tried to revert to that vision with the, frankly, rather dark Revenge of the Sith, following the poor reception that the more kiddie flavoured The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones got. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 12:46:40 GMT -5
I like them both, a lot.
I voted Star Wars in the poll though as it's more fun, and I am really enjoying the current Marvel Star Wars titles on Comixology. (The Vader mini-series alone would have been enough to swing my vote!)
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 30, 2017 21:32:59 GMT -5
You say "fortune cookie", whereas I prefer to see a beautiful Haiku. I think more fortune cookies should be written as beautiful haikus. Then we'd both win. I think we'd all win if more fortune cookies contained actual fortunes. Most of them I've gotten lately have been more advice than predictions. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 30, 2017 21:35:52 GMT -5
I believe there was one where they captured a young Borg and kind of adopted him, or something like that? I had already stopped watching the series at this point so never saw the episode, just heard about it, but it sounded like a bad idea to me. Yes. You're right it was a boring episode but they picked up with a great 2 parter years later in ST: Voyager that introduced Seven of Nine. I'm not sure the main reason she was put on the show was that she was a Borg. |
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