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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 12:49:30 GMT -5
In our county of 500,000 we have 4 LCS. In my area/hometown there is only one and I don't go there because it's also a front for drug use as well and I go to a LCS that's a good 40 minutes drive and I don't go there that much. There isn't many of them left these days. So sad to read your post Michael. I know where I live is unusual. A year ago we had 6. Only 2 of them have been around for 20-30 yrs. The other 2 have only been around a short time & have limited hours.
The success of the one I go to is: the owner has been around since 1979 & runs his store well. It's well lit & friendly with helpful staff. Plus it is in a prime location. Right across from the train station where a lot of commuters pass thru/by daily. It is on the north side of the largest (small) city where most of the surrounding county would go to shop, eat out, etc. It is also in the news with any comic book themed movie, FCBD, etc.
The owner also donates a lot of trades to the local library. He is a former teacher & he still goes to the 13 high schools in the county & teaches a few days each year on sequential story telling in the art classes. Plus he taught a course at a local college on the history of comic books (which was a great class that I enrolled in).
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Post by rom on Apr 11, 2017 15:44:34 GMT -5
Interesting topic. I think all of us comic book fans have different ways we collect, and there's not one actual "correct/right" way.
I myself am in my 40's, and have been collecting off & on since I was a little kid back way back in the late '70's (though most of my collecting was in the early - mid '80's). After an especially long hiatus, I started collecting again in the late 200X's, primarily Collected Editions (Omnis; MMW; TPB's) - what started me off again was the superb Classic Daredevil by Frank Miller Omnibus (2007); I also got some floppies as well. I was going to my LCS for all of these. And, even though I live in a major metropolitan area, my LCS was not that close.
So, a couple of years ago, I got tired of the long trek to the store; the one I went to was quite a distance away & I didn't have time to go there every week (more like once every 1-2 months). Plus, I was moving away from buying floppies anyway at that point.
So, these days I only order online & don't get floppies at all; just CE's. It's great to just have these delivered right to your door, and the discounts also help.
To follow up on something mentioned in the last post, I also donate some of my older Trades/floppies to the local library if I don't need them anymore - or if they've been replaced by better CE's. I think it's a great way to give back to the community, and who knows - someone may read what you've donated & become a comic fan because of this
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 11, 2017 18:46:47 GMT -5
I've heard it theorized that with the prevalence of illegal downloads and scans there are more comics readers than ever before.
And there's almost certainly a larger percentage of the *adult* population that aren't adverse to reading comics - or at least the occasional Watchmen/Fun Home style graphic novel.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 11, 2017 18:48:50 GMT -5
Well, I did just buy Clowes Patience So good. SO GOOD. Clowes' last couple books were boring middle-aged ennui and I don't really remember much about 'em, but Patience knocked my socks off. One of my favorite things I've read all year.
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 11, 2017 18:52:06 GMT -5
I don't know, but I do know that the number is very small and shrinking all the time, and that the only way to save comics is to cater to those fans, and those fans alone, because anything else is just PC pandering to SJWs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 1:53:36 GMT -5
Using a comic shop locator app, I got 18 results within 50 miles of me. I know of at least 4 others in that range who aren't listed in the app. That doesn't include stores like 2nd & Charles that carry new comics along with other pop culture stuff and secondhand stuff, within that range. There are also many places to get back issues but not new comics in that range including 5-6 Half Price Books, 6-8 antique malls that have comic vendors in them, a couple of used book stores that carry comics, a couple of vintage shops that carry back issues and a host of other places. If I extend that range about 10 miles it encompasses two large permanent all year flea markets, and adds about a dozen comic vendors, about half of which carry new comics as well as older stuff. If I extend it to 100 miles I then add Cincinatti to the mix as well and somewhere between anther dozen and a score of comic shops. There are also about a dozen vintage toy stores in the initial range too, all of which have back issues of some sort available. That doesn't include the comic shop here in the town I live that closed last year either. We also have enough toy and comic cons going on that I could attend one about half the weekends of the year without driving more than an hour. Those cons feature probably a score of other comic vendors who only do shows and online sales and don't have brick and mortar shops.
It is a virtual hotbed of comic activity around here, but if you think about the law of averages and there only being 5K total Diamond accounts in North America, if I have 20-30 of those within 100 miles of me, there is a disproportionate number here in Ohio (and that's not counting the Cleveland, Toledo or Canton/Akron metropolitan area(s) that would likely add more to the total, which means there are vast swaths of the country that are under-served.
Now how well all these shops do is debatable, but well enough that many have been around for a good while and new shops have opened in the last 2-3 years. But many also deal in new & vintage gaming (tabletop & video games), vintage vinyl, and other pop culture collectibles to supplement their revenue streams and most have some sort of online storefront to increase their customer base. Many also do the con circuit and move stock that doesn't sell in store at shows to at least get their initial investments back. A few a hybrid sports card collectible shops too (more common in the Cinci area in the heart of Reds country).
That being said, most of these shops depend on their pull list customers* for floppy sales and don't stock heavily for walk in sales. Those that do have owners who meticulously track their sales from month to month and year to year to tailor their ordering to what actually sells. A few buy in to minimum order levels for rare variants because they have regular customers who buy the variants and cover the buy in expense (which can inflate sales numbers) and either eat the extra copies or sell them off down the road in dollar bins or at cons. For many of the shops, what is kept on hand for walk in casual sales is trades not floppies because that is what sells to that type of customer. Those that have healthy back issue sales with their customer base have large areas with back issue, but that is only about 1/3 to half the shops. A few have no back issues and that isn't part of their business model. Some of the shops have/had digital storefronts with comixology** which allows them to get a percentage of the money from digital sales at Comixology through their storefront, so customers can get digital copies but still support their lcs in some way.
It's important to not only ask how many shops are there, but what are they selling in what format. What do they carry? What percentage of their revenue stream is new comics? Trades? Back issues? Gaming (a lot of shops make more from Magic the Gathering and/or Heroclix around here than they do from new comic and back issue sales and can sell more cases of new Magic releases than they can issues of any one comic title or more than all the copies sold in a month form some publishers)? What are their shelf sales vs. pull list sales for new comics? What incentives (if any) do they offer for pull lists (some offer a % off, some free bags & boards, some nothing)? There are a lot of factors that go into gauging the health of the industry.
And beware of the spin put out by Diamond and some of the retailer associations. They will talk about growth of the industry and they celebrated that in 2014 comic sales equalled pre-speculation bubble bursting levels for the first time, which is all well and good except they were speaking in terms of dollars not units sold, and pre-spec bubble comics cost $1 each, and goods with higher price points (such as DC Direct statues and action figures, trades, omnibuses, etc. were few and far between so the industry moved a lot fewer items that cost a whole lot more to achieve that. Comics cost 4x what they did then, and more high ticket items brought in more dollars per unit, but it took them 20 years to match the dollars sold level they were at. Imaging if you were getting paid 4 times more per hour than you were 20 years ago, but just now made as much in a year that you did back then...is that really a cause for celebration and a sign of growth? They will never talk units moved when comparing to years past because units moved are shrinking. Talking dollars sold shows the illusion of growth, but that's all it is because msrp's keep going up to get that alleged growth in dollars. You have to look at did revenue increase at a higher percentages than average msrp's, and in most cases the answer is no.
I don't think comic fans or customers will go away, but the industry has to evolve and move into the 21st century with its business models and practices, or it will become even more of a niche industry, one that may not be robust enough to support the direct market comic shop model as it currently exists.
-M
*the largest single obstacle to revenue stream and cash flow for a lot of these shops is pull customers who pile up several months of books they don't pick up and then disappear leaving them holding hundreds if not thousands of dollars of merchandise. One of the shops in the area was featured on Bleeding Cool after tweeting a pick of them holding up a sign in front of all the unclaimed pull books at their shop with a tally on how much it cost them (at wholesale not retail) for those books (iirc it was over $10K)
**I am not sure if this feature survived Comixology's acquisition by Amazon, I haven't heard any of the shop owners talk about it in a while, so the new corporate overlords may have discontinued the program.
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Post by Dizzy D on Apr 12, 2017 9:18:08 GMT -5
A question for our Brit members or non-North American members...how viable would comic shops be in your area if they did not have American comic books (i.e. comics from American publishers and their intellectual property) available to sell? How much of their revenue stream is from American comics vs. comics from other areas? Is there enough other product available to keep a specialty shop viable selling comics only? -M Depends really on the store over here: At the moment, comic shops I know about in my vicinity: 4 in Utrecht: 1 used to be focused on American comics and manga, but the manga has been overtaking the rest, American stuff is trade-only. Also has Magic cards and Warhammer miniatures. No European comics. 1 is a combination of European and American comics with a bit of manga. No card games, toys etc., just books. Focus seems to be mostly European these days, but it's like 60-40 or 70-30, the American stuff is still a good chunk. One of the few places where I can still get floppies and the shop I visit on a near-weekly basis (5-10 minute walk from my work helps. Then again, these 4 are all within a radius of 10 minutes from each other). 1 is European stuff only. 1 is a mixture of European and American with focus on European. 1 in Sittard, this shop I've been visiting since I was 6 years old, so I can remember all the changes it went through over the years. Used to be mostly European, then during the 90s it became almost solely American, then it returned to mostly European with a big chunk of American stuff (trade only). A bit of manga and Magic cards. 1 shop in Eindhoven: Very large shop, lots of European stuff, but also a lot of American stuff, both floppies and trades. Also a decent amount of boardgames, manga, Magic cards etc. Arnhem: haven't been there in a while, last time it was mostly European and American trades. Nijmegen: moved about a year ago. After the move not a lot of American trades left, mostly European. American stuff seems to be mostly Indy. Rotterdam: 2 stores (there are more, but I don't know the others): 1 European only. 1 Mixture of American and European (and quite a few puzzles).
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Post by rom on Apr 12, 2017 9:28:10 GMT -5
Great points, mrp.
Half Price Books has a lot of great CE's (both HC's & Trades), and it seems like every time I go in there (not often) they have more than the last time. I suspect that the CE's sold there cater to the casual comic fan and/or someone who may be getting these as a gift. I.e., I don't think that all of the people that buy CE's there would also shop at their LCS - or even know where their LCS is located (or care, for that matter).
It's also worth remembering the now-defunct Border's Books & Music (IIRC, all of these closed in 2010); when this chain closed I remember some comic fans lamenting the loss, due to the fact that the store(s) carried so many CE's. In fact, I was just getting back into comics again in the early '90's (after my first comic book collecting hiatus from around 1987 - 1992), and do remember getting into DC's Vertigo line because of the then-relatively new Trades I found @ Border's - i.e. the excellent Black Orchid mini-series, Sandman, Hellblazer, Preacher, etc.
I would be curious to know the #'s of comic fans who still collect floppies every month. As I mentioned in my earlier e-mail, I stopped getting any floppies a couple of years ago - it got to be too much of a hassle. I don't collect any new titles anymore, and the expense of having to buy bags & boards & then having bag/board the floppies was time consuming; needless to say, I don't miss not needing to do this anymore - LOL.
HC & even Trade CE's are a lot more durable and - for the most part - easier to read. Plus, if you want to collect a newer series you shouldn't have to collect the floppies, but can always just wait for the Trade to come out.
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Post by Dizzy D on Apr 12, 2017 9:43:29 GMT -5
Ah, I found some hard numbers (Belgium (Flanders and France only sadly, no numbers for the Netherlands or Wallonia. And the numbers for France are relative, not total numbers) Source: www.stripspeciaalzaak.be/Verkooptop10.php (in dutch) *= The site does not provide any information how Edistat comes by its numbers. So a bit of background apart from that. Belgium has a population of about 11 million. A bit more than half are in Flanders, about 6-7 million. The numbers published show about 150.000-200.000 comics sold every week for the total sum of about 2.5 million euros a week (so these are a combination of trades, softcover and hardcover BDs). Numbers may change if one week has some really anticipated comic coming out (new Asterix), but the numbers from the last few months seem pretty consistent. Highest is 3.2 million, lowest 2.4 million) The top-sellers for Flanders are local comics, with a few French comics thrown in. The Top10s from France show a lot of manga and occassionally an American trade (Walking Dead most recently) and of course the usual Franco-Belgian comics.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 12, 2017 10:20:47 GMT -5
Great points, mrp.
Half Price Books has a lot of great CE's (both HC's & Trades), and it seems like every time I go in there (not often) they have more than the last time. I suspect that the CE's sold there cater to the casual comic fan and/or someone who may be getting these as a gift. I.e., I don't think that all of the people that buy CE's there would also shop at their LCS - or even know where their LCS is located (or care, for that matter).
It's also worth remembering the now-defunct Border's Books & Music (IIRC, all of these closed in 2010); when this chain closed I remember some comic fans lamenting the loss, due to the fact that the store(s) carried so many CE's. In fact, I was just getting back into comics again in the early '90's (after my first comic book collecting hiatus from around 1987 - 1992), and do remember getting into DC's Vertigo line because of the then-relatively new Trades I found @ Border's - i.e. the excellent Black Orchid mini-series, Sandman, Hellblazer, Preacher, etc.
I would be curious to know the #'s of comic fans who still collect floppies every month. As I mentioned in my earlier e-mail, I stopped getting any floppies a couple of years ago - it got to be too much of a hassle. I don't collect any new titles anymore, and the expense of having to buy bags & boards & then having bag/board the floppies was time consuming; needless to say, I don't miss not needing to do this anymore - LOL.
HC & even Trade CE's are a lot more durable and - for the most part - easier to read. Plus, if you want to collect a newer series you shouldn't have to collect the floppies, but can always just wait for the Trade to come out.
Problem was Borders was carrying far more inventory than they were selling. Their bankruptcy took down Tokyopop (in the US, at least) because they owed them so much money for their massive over-ordering. Borders was run by poor business people, who chased a fickle youth dollar and never looked to the future. They invested heavily in CD inventory, as file sharing and digital delivery methods became prevalent. They over-invested in dvd with similar results. They went nuts with manga and other trades and graphic novels and sat on a ton of inventory. They handed their on-line presence over to Amazon, for years, and trained their customers to shop Amazon, rather than their own company. They were way late to the e-book and e-reader table and ended up stuck at the kiddie table. They would have died long before had they not been in the unique situation that their chief creditor was also their chief shareholder. He used them to balance his portfolio for several years before it was no longer worth it. They were in trouble as far back as the late 90s, where morale was so bad in their stores that several voted to unionize (which did nothing for them and the unions were mostly gone in the next 5 years). They also went overboard opening new stores, adding to a capital drain. They were a textbook example of how not to run a business. Unfortunately, their customers were the ones left out in the cold, as well as publishing. Publishing took a big hit, as the third largest book buyer was now gone. The volume was not absorbed, much, by Amazon and B&N. There are far more delivery methods now that I don't think you can base much on numbers of comic shops or presence in bookstores, or things like that. Diamond's sales figures represent only their distribution; but, they are distributing to a lot of bookstores, as well as comic shops. When I worked for B&N, we were getting some of our trades from Diamond, for the independents. Our newsstand material came from our magazine distributor, so we didn't have direct market-only books. Just before I left, the company expanded the comic presence on the newsstand. Just after I left, they curtailed it significantly, in many of the stores (depends heavily on newsstand sales for an individual stores; it varies a lot). Graphic novels and manga have always been a strong niche there, though heavily dominated by DC and Marvel (as you would expect). The company got more and more itchy about carrying books for more than initial release and wasn't reordering on independents that didn't sell out the initial order. For instance, we got the first IDW Corto Maltese volume; but none after. We could local order things and did; but, the buyer's would mark things for return rather quickly. Manga is still the strongest segment of the bookstore comic sales, as those are faithful buyers and they bring in more new readers than American (from my local experience). The American stuff depended on things like the superhero movies and tv shows, special displays, buyers putting new releases in prime locations (ie front of store). The bestselling American title we had was The Walking Dead. We got all kinds of new readers from fans of the show. Anything else might sell one or two copies out of the 3 or 4 we received, with our initial order. By contrast, the graphic novel hybrids for kids, from Scholastic and other childrens publishers, sold dozens and more; things like Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Dork Diary, Big Nate, and Smile. Thats where the youth dollar goes. From what I saw, about 1 in 20 of those kids would move up to American comics. 1 in about 6 or 7 would at least sample manga. That's where the future of the medium lies, in terms of consumers. Now, comic formats are being used more and more in ways similar to the Japanese approach, meaning that people read comics in different formats; but, not necessarily traditional comics. The publishers that nurture those formats will probably be healthier in the long run. These aren't just fiction, but things like history and reference books Number of comic shops can be greatly misleading, as many come and go faster than rabbits breed. Longevity in the market for the stores within a market has a greater factor. A lot of stores go under within 5 years, due to poor business factors and other forces. Retail rent is a big one and one of the biggest factors that affects traditional retailing, large and small. A lot of these big box department stores that are being closed are being chosen because their revenue vs lease isn't advantageous enough, not because they had poor sales. The poor performing stores are targeted first, the expensive leases are targeted second. Fandom is a totally separate element. Fandom has always been a niche demographic of a niche market. Fandom buys the cult titles, readers buy the one that fans hate, yet never go away. If you combined all comic delivery methods and compared to earlier decades, the numbers are bad; but, the same is true for other print publishing, both magazines and books. I don't think the market is dying; but, it doesn't seem in any danger of growing, much.
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 12, 2017 11:59:56 GMT -5
Borders is a sore point for me. I used to write for and edit a magazine about British comics. We were doing quite well until the collapse of Borders UK took away our distribution network and we never got paid for the last issue they carried.Totally destroyed us.
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Post by rom on Apr 12, 2017 13:42:21 GMT -5
Good info./insights re: the closing of Borders, everyone. I was not aware of these issues. I remember thinking the CD's in the store were always overpriced, with few sales. The DVD's always seemed overpriced as well. However, the books/CE's seemed to be on sale...sometimes.
I remember seeing a documentary years ago (I believe it was one of Michael Moore's docs., but can't remember which one) which had a segment about how Border's staff were fighting for higher wages, since the minimal wages they were getting paid were terrible. It definitely did not seem to be a great place to work.
Barnes & Noble bookstores also have overpriced CD's & DVD's, but the books/Trades are also sometimes on sale (like Border's). They also seem to be better organized than Border's was. In recent years, I've noticed they've started carrying nice, higher end toys/collectibles related to comic books/movies - i.e. Star Wars, super heroes, etc. And, I'm sure they're making good $ by having Starbuck's coffee in the stores; Border's also had a great coffee place which I liked just as much (if not more) as Starbucks's, but I'm not sure how profitable it was in comparison.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 12, 2017 17:05:12 GMT -5
What the average consumer doesn't understand about CD and DVD prices, in places like Walmart and Best Buy vs B&N and Borders is that those bix box retailers use them as "loss leaders." They are priced low to get you in the store and buying and swing you towards the things where they make more money. B&N and Borders didn't buy in the same volume and couldn't offer those same loss leader prices. They had to charge a more realistic market price to recoup their costs. They didn't make much on that product, even at the higher price. Distributors take a big cut.
Books were a different story. The average discount from a publisher was 50% of the sale price; so, bookstores could better earn a profit, if they sold the book. However, there are other costs that factor into that profit, rent being a very big one. At B7N, the place where we made the most money was our bargain section. We got remaindered books for a song and made big profit, even selling them for $6.98. Many of the reference books and some fiction came from our own publishing wing and those were printed cheaply and meant big profit. Also, a large chunk of them were public domain; so, we weren't sharing royalties. Some were special licenses. We had a license to reprint a 1960s Peanuts collection for a long time. Taschen let us reprint some of their titles, for a limited time. other publishers, especially European, did the same. Several of our history books were British, in origin.
The Michael Moore thing was comical, from B&N's point of view. If I recall correctly, his Capitalism book was out and he was doing a signing at a Borders store (mid-late 90s, early 2000s) and was speaking to picketing workers. A really foolish manager asked him not to talk to them and Moore responded by moving his signing table next to a display for Banned Books Week (where bookstores, libraries and publishers highlight books that have been challenged and banned in various communities and at various points in history). It featured heavily in the media, especially the publishing world (Publisher's Weekly) and was a major PR black eye for the company. about a half dozen stores (give or take) voted in unions, during that period. problem is, it's retail and their bargaining power was minimal. They paid dues, got little to show for it, and employees moved on, membership dropped, and the unions either left or were shown the door by the few remaining members.
B&N had a better relationship with its employees during the same time, though pay and benefits weren't much different. It paid decent, for retail, and came with decent benefits; but, you weren't going to get rich. What made it different was that the company was more responsive to bookseller suggestions and there was more of a team atmosphere, from my experience. Of course, a lot depended on the leadership of the store manager and district manager. I saw good and bad ones. In the last decade, that has changed a lot, as inner turmoil has affected B&N and just the sheer fight to survive against Amazon. They were always smart about keeping debt minimal and looking to the future; but, were never much for innovating. Also, when Steve Riggio stepped down as President, it felt like a lot of the heart of the company went with him. His brother Len is the chief shareholder and founder; but, Steve was a real driving force behind the scenes. he had a daughter with health and developmental issues and her health declined. he pulled back to care for her and she passed away a few years back. he stepped down permanently, after that. Len has made noises about retiring and dropped about a third of his stock, around the time I was leaving. He fought off two shareholder battles and some probes at hostile takeovers. I felt their days were numbered and that when Len stepped down, the company was going to start breaking up. They do well in the college market and just plain retailing; but, brick & mortar is really, really tough, right now. B&N has millions, Amazon has billions.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 12, 2017 19:40:10 GMT -5
When Borders was around, I must have signed up with their insider club. Each week I got an e-mail from them with a discount coupon. The discount was anywhere from 25-40% off. I bought something from them every week and never paid full price.
Doesn't B&N have a similar deal?
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 12, 2017 21:03:47 GMT -5
When Borders was around, I must have signed up with their insider club. Each week I got an e-mail from them with a discount coupon. The discount was anywhere from 25-40% off. I bought something from them every week and never paid full price. Doesn't B&N have a similar deal? Yeah, they send out weekly e-mail coupons. Same basic kind of thing, though there are better ones if you buy the B&N membership. Those can be used in conjunction with the membership and you can rack up some pretty good savings, if you work it right. It's been 3 years since I left; but, membership was $25, for the year. That got you 40% of bestsellers and an additional 10% off discounted items and 10% off, in general. That includes the cafe. Many people don't understand that B&N owns their cafes and just serves Starbucks' coffee; they aren't Starbucks cafes within a B&N store. Thus, Member discount applies there, too, and the B&N gift cards work there. Starbucks cards do not. We constantly had to educate people who handed us Starbucks gift cards and rewards cards. Membership also gets you free shipping. The only place it doesn't apply is the used bookseller network, via BN.com. Those are third party sellers and price is set and shipping required, since it is fulfilled by the seller, not B&N. membership didn't apply to e-books; but, did for Nook device purchases. I believe that still holds for the Samsung Galaxy/Nooks. We used to get a lot of flack for being the corporate giant and some of it was earned; but, some of it was vastly unfair. We were as big of a part in the community as independent stores, running fundraisers, providing tax revenue and jobs; same as them. We didn't target those stores, like Walmart does to mom & pop stores, ad we sent people their way if we were out of a book. Nobody at B&N cheered when Borders went under; we knew it was bad for the industry, we had friends and colleagues at those stores, and we all considered ourselves a community. Don't see that with Amazon. Problem is, price matters more than local, to the majority of consumers.
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