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Post by Icctrombone on May 18, 2017 8:06:33 GMT -5
I place the Defalco/ Ryan run high on my favorite list. Maybe higher than the Byrne run.
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shiryu
Junior Member
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Post by shiryu on May 18, 2017 15:57:22 GMT -5
I have massive gaps in my FF reading experience as they were never among my favourite Marvel characters. From what I've read, I'd go with the Byrne run too, but I'm now reading the classic Lee/Kirby stories (some for the first time) and they are better than I thought. Very silly most of the times, but pretty fun.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 18, 2017 17:30:51 GMT -5
This needs to be a poll with options: (A) "Lee/Kirby" and (B) "Childhood Nostalgia." (That covers all the possible answers, right?) Yup. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 18, 2017 18:35:26 GMT -5
This needs to be a poll with options: (A) "Lee/Kirby" and (B) "Childhood Nostalgia." (That covers all the possible answers, right?) To a degree, though for myself, I find nostalgia-driven affection for something easily distinguishable from the esteem I hold things in because I think they're actually good. Also, nostalgia isn't always enough to keep me liking something I used to enjoy as a kid. Yeah, but it's Fantastic Four. Every future creator was blatantly aping Lee and Kirby. and they were all aware that they weren't as good. If you tell John Byrne or Mark Waid that you like their Fantastic Four run better than Lee and Kirby they will view you as slightly dumber. Which is why the Fantastic Four is the weakest of the long-running Marvel titles, overall, from the bronze age to present. Everything up to Jonathan Hickman's run in the late aughts is blatantly and obviously derivative of the original run. While most creators tend to come to (say) Captain America with their own vision, the best that anyone ever aims for on Fantastic Four is to be a pale imitation. |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 18, 2017 19:58:28 GMT -5
To a degree, though for myself, I find nostalgia-driven affection for something easily distinguishable from the esteem I hold things in because I think they're actually good. Also, nostalgia isn't always enough to keep me liking something I used to enjoy as a kid. Yeah, but it's Fantastic Four. Every future creator was blatantly aping Lee and Kirby. and they were all aware that they weren't as good. If you tell John Byrne or Mark Waid that you like their Fantastic Four run better than Lee and Kirby they will view you as slightly dumber. Which is why the Fantastic Four is the weakest of the long-running Marvel titles, overall, from the bronze age to present. Everything up to Jonathan Hickman's run in the late aughts is blatantly and obviously derivative of the original run. While most creators tend to come to (say) Captain America with their own vision, the best that anyone ever aims for on Fantastic Four is to be a pale imitation. Wow. That's like the most intelligent analysis of the FF experience. I will say that Roy Thomas and a few others did more with the dynamic like adding other members or having Reed and Sue go through a rocky patch in their marriage. |
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Post by Farrar on May 18, 2017 21:37:07 GMT -5
Which is why the Fantastic Four is the weakest of the long-running Marvel titles, overall, from the bronze age to present...While most creators tend to come to (say) Captain America with their own vision, the best that anyone ever aims for on Fantastic Four is to be a pale imitation. This. The FF's core concept was strong and established from the start. There was no place to go after L&K but down. There was more room to grow with the other Marvel titles/characters such as Cap, Thor, et al. |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 21:53:17 GMT -5
I place the Defalco/ Ryan run high on my favorite list. Maybe higher than the Byrne run. I really liked the Defalco/Ryan run as well. |
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Post by hondobrode on May 18, 2017 22:42:16 GMT -5
I've heard from many that this run was pretty good.
Might have to try it sometime.
Same with DeFalco / Frenz on Thor, derivative though they may be.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 23:49:45 GMT -5
I've heard from many that this run was pretty good. Might have to try it sometime. Same with DeFalco / Frenz on Thor, derivative though they may be. I've heard good things about their Thor run as well. |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on May 19, 2017 4:12:27 GMT -5
Lee and Kirby, everything was building the Marvel U, with more BIG concepts than any other,but truly game changers that others have fed off for years.
The 70's through to Byrne may have contained some entertainment, some okay stories, but really, where is the truly original here.
Byrne, some good, some boring, but heart in the right place. Suffered greatly on rereading a couple of years ago.
DeFalco and Frenz, derivative but fun, however again...wheres the innovation.
Hickman, IMHO the first to try and live up to the legacy, the drive to expand the limits of superhero books, with an emphasis on family and some excellent work on exactly what the FF was really all about.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 19, 2017 5:27:57 GMT -5
Lee and Kirby, everything was building the Marvel U, with more BIG concepts than any other,but truly game changers that others have fed off for years. The 70's through to Byrne may have contained some entertainment, some okay stories, but really, where is the truly original here. Byrne, some good, some boring, but heart in the right place. Suffered greatly on rereading a couple of years ago. DeFalco and Frenz, derivative but fun, however again...wheres the innovation. Hickman, IMHO the first to try and live up to the legacy, the drive to expand the limits of superhero books, with an emphasis on family and some excellent work on exactly what the FF was really all about. All the really good runs added something to the legend. Brynes runs has aged a bit but he added two really nice stories : The Trial of Reed Richards for saving Galactus and the story that led up to it where they defeat Galactus only to save him. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 19, 2017 7:52:30 GMT -5
Byrne was very good with the "illusion of change" concept. He made seemingly important modifications, but none that affected the core essence of the book, and (especially) none that demanded a major retcon later on. (Alicia was a Skrull? REALLY? Is that what passes for coherent storytelling?)
Reed and Sue moving to the suburbs, adding temporary members, Sue losing her baby, Johnny falling for Alicia, they were all things that caused fans to go "Whaaaat? This is an outrage!" but were easily rectified if the need arose, and kept the book dynamic.
Later writers didn't get that. If you have Johnny and Alicia marry, then you may have a problem. That's not an illusion of change, that is change. And while I am actually all in favour of change if it is a good one (like the introduction of a secong Richards child) I wary of changes that have "retcon coming right up" written on their forehead.
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Post by badwolf on May 19, 2017 9:10:16 GMT -5
I would argue that things like the destruction of the Skrull homeworld and establishing Galactus' nature and place in the universe were pretty big changes. The only thing that made me go Whaaaat (at the time) was Johnny and Alicia as a couple, but now that I understand adult relationships more it doesn't seem crazy to me any more.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 19, 2017 10:11:59 GMT -5
Byrne was very good with the "illusion of change" concept. He made seemingly important modifications, but none that affected the core essence of the book, and (especially) none that demanded a major retcon later on. (Alicia was a Skrull? REALLY? Is that what passes for coherent storytelling?) Reed and Sue moving to the suburbs, adding temporary members, Sue losing her baby, Johnny falling for Alicia, they were all things that caused fans to go " Whaaaat? This is an outrage!" but were easily rectified if the need arose, and kept the book dynamic. Later writers didn't get that. If you have Johnny and Alicia marry, then you may have a problem. That's not an illusion of change, that is change. And while I am actually all in favour of change if it is a good one (like the introduction of a secong Richards child) I wary of changes that have "retcon coming right up" written on their forehead. Makes you wonder how far Byrne would have gone with the Johnny/Alicia relationship. Were they going to get married? |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 19, 2017 10:14:28 GMT -5
I would argue that things like the destruction of the Skrull homeworld and establishing Galactus' nature and place in the universe were pretty big changes. The only thing that made me go Whaaaat (at the time) was Johnny and Alicia as a couple, but now that I understand adult relationships more it doesn't seem crazy to me any more. I think Lee/Kirby proclaimed Galactus as a force of nature way back in his first appearance. |
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