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Post by badwolf on May 19, 2017 10:19:16 GMT -5
I would argue that things like the destruction of the Skrull homeworld and establishing Galactus' nature and place in the universe were pretty big changes. The only thing that made me go Whaaaat (at the time) was Johnny and Alicia as a couple, but now that I understand adult relationships more it doesn't seem crazy to me any more. I think Lee/Kirby proclaimed Galactus as a force of nature way back in his first appearance. Hmm, maybe, but it seemed like up to Byrne's story he was still seen as a "villain." |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 19, 2017 10:30:13 GMT -5
Byrne was very good with the "illusion of change" concept. He made seemingly important modifications, but none that affected the core essence of the book, and (especially) none that demanded a major retcon later on. (Alicia was a Skrull? REALLY? Is that what passes for coherent storytelling?) Reed and Sue moving to the suburbs, adding temporary members, Sue losing her baby, Johnny falling for Alicia, they were all things that caused fans to go " Whaaaat? This is an outrage!" but were easily rectified if the need arose, and kept the book dynamic. Later writers didn't get that. If you have Johnny and Alicia marry, then you may have a problem. That's not an illusion of change, that is change. And while I am actually all in favour of change if it is a good one (like the introduction of a secong Richards child) I wary of changes that have "retcon coming right up" written on their forehead. Makes you wonder how far Byrne would have gone with the Johnny/Alicia relationship. Were they going to get married? I sort of doubt it. My guess is that Byrne would have eventually brought Ben back in the mag, and used the soap opera aspect of the triangle for as long as it was interesting. Then, who knows? It might even be that in the end, nobody ended up with anyone... thus leaving the door open for future reunions, or relationships with other people. |
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Post by Cei-U! on May 19, 2017 12:00:02 GMT -5
Here's the thing about the Johnny-Alicia coupling that I, at least, still react to with the aforementioned outrage, and I'm about to get deeply personal here so buckle up. Sue herself once compared Ben and Alicia to a fairy tale couple, the monster with the heart of gold and the blind girl who can't see his deformity. But to a disabled little boy who often wondered if he would get to find grown-up love as an adult and who had no real life role models to suggest he would, Ben and Alicia represented the hope that, yes, there IS someone for everyone. They should have been married years before John Byrne picked up the scripting. That would have been an appropriate advancing of the characters' stories, as well as an incredibly positive message recognizing the physically disabled as responsible, mature members of society. Sometimes what a character represents is more important than the needs of a single creator or storyline. Byrne destroyed that for the sake of some sleazy soap operatics. I don't know if he was too blind to see what he had or too callous to care. Either way, it felt like a betrayal by someone I *thought* understood what made the Fantastic Four work. It left a bad taste in my mouth I can still taste today.
Cei-U!
I summon the Pepsodent!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 19, 2017 12:32:17 GMT -5
Here's the thing about the Johnny-Alicia coupling that I, at least, still react to with the aforementioned outrage, and I'm about to get deeply personal here so buckle up. Sue herself once compared Ben and Alicia to a fairy tale couple, the monster with the heart of gold and the blind girl who can't see his deformity. But to a disabled little boy who often wondered if he would get to find grown-up love as an adult and who had no real life role models to suggest he would, Ben and Alicia represented the hope that, yes, there IS someone for everyone. They should have been married years before John Byrne picked up the scripting. That would have been an appropriate advancing of the characters' stories, as well as an incredibly positive message recognizing the physically disabled as responsible, mature members of society. Sometimes what a character represents is more important than the needs of a single creator or storyline. Byrne destroyed that for the sake of some sleazy soap operatics. I don't know if he was too blind to see what he had or too callous to care. Either way, it felt like a betrayal by someone I *thought* understood what made the Fantastic Four work. It left a bad taste in my mouth I can still taste today. Cei-U! I summon the Pepsodent! While certainly not personal to me, as it was to you, I feel the same way about the Johnny-Alicia thing. Beyond that, it is anathema to the characterization of pretty much everyone in the FF as established through the years of the series. Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a continuity freak (though I was at one time...I got better). But you don't get to simultaneously claim the kind of reverence that Byrne claimed for the FF and also make everyone in the book act completely out of character for a relationship that makes no sense. |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 19, 2017 14:02:36 GMT -5
I read what you guys have written and I ask myself if there's anything that's untouchable in these comic book histories. Bucky was brought back 60 years after that fact, Barry Allen was resurrected after 30 years and so was Norman Osbourn. Maybe WE are the problem and we are too attached to these fictional stories and people. Those 3 resurrections never sat right with me, but it's anything for a story nowadays.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 19, 2017 17:53:20 GMT -5
A tangent that I hope won't completely derail the thread - I, and others I know, have said that the best Fantastic Four stories of the last few decades are the movie The Incredibles and the First Family stories in Astro City.
So what's your favorite Faux Fantastic Four?
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Post by Phil Maurice on May 19, 2017 18:41:22 GMT -5
A tangent that I hope won't completely derail the thread - I, and others I know, have said that the best Fantastic Four stories of the last few decades are the movie The Incredibles and the First Family stories in Astro City. So what's your favorite Faux Fantastic Four? Good question. Does "Lost in Space" count?  |
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Post by Hoosier X on May 20, 2017 13:17:30 GMT -5
A tangent that I hope won't completely derail the thread - I, and others I know, have said that the best Fantastic Four stories of the last few decades are the movie The Incredibles and the First Family stories in Astro City. So what's your favorite Faux Fantastic Four? Yeah, those First Family stories are great! Sometimes the Tom Strong series has more than a hint of The Fantastic Four. |
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Post by berkley on May 20, 2017 16:49:28 GMT -5
Thankfully, I had stopped following the FF quite some time before Byrne started his run on the series so I missed all that. But when I heard about the Johnny+Alicia thing years later on the internet my reaction was "What the - ?! They can't be serious!"
To me it sounds like the kind of mindless shuffling of characters and relationships that writers fall back on in desperation when they run out of ideas: "Let's see, we have characters A, B, C, D, & E, what can I do with them this month? I know, A & B have been together for like a hundred years, that's boring! I'll split them up and put B & D together! Ha, ha, that's sure to get a reaction!"
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2017 17:17:14 GMT -5
Thankfully, I had stopped following the FF quite some time before Byrne started his run on the series so I missed all that. But when I heard about the Johnny+Alicia thing years later on the internet my reaction was "What the - ?! They can't be serious!" To me it sounds like the kind of mindless shuffling of characters and relationships that writers fall back on in desperation when they run out of ideas: "Let's see, we have characters A, B, C, D, & E, what can I do with them this month? I know, A & B have been together for like a hundred years, that's boring! I'll split them up and put B & D together! Ha, ha, that's sure to get a reaction!" The Byrne run was rather good, did you ever go back and read it? |
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Post by badwolf on May 20, 2017 17:51:22 GMT -5
Thankfully, I had stopped following the FF quite some time before Byrne started his run on the series so I missed all that. But when I heard about the Johnny+Alicia thing years later on the internet my reaction was "What the - ?! They can't be serious!" To me it sounds like the kind of mindless shuffling of characters and relationships that writers fall back on in desperation when they run out of ideas: "Let's see, we have characters A, B, C, D, & E, what can I do with them this month? I know, A & B have been together for like a hundred years, that's boring! I'll split them up and put B & D together! Ha, ha, that's sure to get a reaction!" I would agree if Ben had still been around, but he was staying on another planet and no one knew if he'd ever be back, so it's not as terrible an idea as it seems. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 20, 2017 17:56:23 GMT -5
Thankfully, I had stopped following the FF quite some time before Byrne started his run on the series so I missed all that. But when I heard about the Johnny+Alicia thing years later on the internet my reaction was "What the - ?! They can't be serious!" To me it sounds like the kind of mindless shuffling of characters and relationships that writers fall back on in desperation when they run out of ideas: "Let's see, we have characters A, B, C, D, & E, what can I do with them this month? I know, A & B have been together for like a hundred years, that's boring! I'll split them up and put B & D together! Ha, ha, that's sure to get a reaction!" I would agree if Ben had still been around, but he was staying on another planet and no one knew if he'd ever be back, so it's not as terrible an idea as it seems. Nope. It's just as terrible as it seems. And Ben staying on Battleworld was a bad idea too. |
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Post by badwolf on May 20, 2017 17:58:24 GMT -5
And Ben staying on Battleworld was a bad idea too. Well, I don't disagree with that. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 20, 2017 22:00:54 GMT -5
I would argue that things like the destruction of the Skrull homeworld and establishing Galactus' nature and place in the universe were pretty big changes. The only thing that made me go Whaaaat (at the time) was Johnny and Alicia as a couple, but now that I understand adult relationships more it doesn't seem crazy to me any more. I think Lee/Kirby proclaimed Galactus as a force of nature way back in his first appearance. I'd say that was more metaphorical than anything else, in the "Galactus is so mighty that he's more like a hurricane than a bandit" sense. Galactus was a big deal, sure, but in a later issue of Thor he was revealed to be just an alien whose race was annihilated by some plague or other, who tried to end his days by plunging into a star... the radiation of which turned him into a planet-eating menace. So, just another radiation-created threat. The whole concept of his being the last person from a previous universe came much later. What Byrne established was Galactus's status as a truly transcendent power, one of the summits of a triangle formed with Death and Eternity. (I don't think it makes much sense, honestly, but there we are). |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 19, 2023 16:11:47 GMT -5
Just started reading the Moench run for the first time. Not a well-remembered run by any respect, and seemingly painstakingly avoided in this thread. But I've been wanting to read the Byrne run for ages now and figured tha the run immediately proceeding it would offer good contrast. Plus, it's Doug Moench, and I've read precious few Moench stories that I've ever considered less than worthwhile. In the past, this is absolutely the kind of thing I would have started a review thread for, but with all the demands placed upon me by the new podcast, occasionally chiming in on this thread will have to suffice. May I find it more enjoyable than you all did |
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