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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2019 1:53:03 GMT -5
My own opinion about Crossovers
I was shocked to see the 1st Superman versus Spiderman Crossover and then it's started to steamroll with the 2nd one, then Batman and The Hulk, X-Men and the Teen Titans, and so forth and that lead to ACCESS where they got this wild idea of merging Batman and the Wolverine and that came to be Dark Claw and all that.
I saw kids at the Comic Book Stores eating this up and wanting more and more. 2-3 years ago ... I asked why Marvel and DC Comics stopped doing this and got an answer that I didn't like and accept it as its worth. I was sad and very disappointed that these things stopped for that reason alone. It's broke my heart and I just feel that many crossover fans like myself wanting for more and never got a chance to do so.
It is ashame to read that members here don't want this at all and this alone that the fans today never had a chance to experience this and this makes me sad.
I would die for an Original JLA taking on Galactus, Lex Luthor battling the Fantastic Four, Wonder Woman taking on She Hulk, The New Teen Titans tackling the Avengers, Swamp Thing vs Man-Thing, Zatanna squaring off the Scarlet Witch, and all this ENDLESS possibilities that would crave an average reader today.
I'm still sad and like that member shared that viewpoint to me ... I'm mad at DC and Marvel for not doing these anymore
Case Closed.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 11, 2019 2:59:27 GMT -5
Super-heroes as a genre exist because publishers made a money grab. It is the driving force of the comic industry and always has been, not a flaw of modern comic publishers. -M I think the focus of the majority of creators from the '60s onward on superheroes regardless of commercial success has been detrimental in some ways to the industry. What used to be a mass medium has shrunk significantly along with subject matter, it's lost place filled by manga imports and Scholastic when it need not have been that way. Yeah, strong agreement all-round. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2019 3:29:13 GMT -5
Lighten up! I'm expressing a preference, not getting to the semantics of shareholders and the like. One can do that, you know. I'd like orange-flavoured Pepsi. That's a preference. But if I told you that, I suppose I'd be lectured about how the Pepsi Corporation couldn't do that because there isn't the financial demand. In an ideal world, I'd like to see fewer crossovers, events, tie-in issues, etc. That's a preference based on free speech. I'm not saying that WWE or comic publishers should *willingly* and *knowingly* lose money. It's a frivolous comment (my comment) based on a preference. Don't take it too seriously. Sometimes we can make comments based on an ideal world. In an ideal world, I'd live in Guernsey, have a universal basic income and WWE's Raw would revert to one hour. In reality, none of those things are happening. But I can talk about them or dream, right? Expressing preferences is all well and good, but any discussion of a direction for comics that does not take into account the business realities of the industry is just wishful thinking and unrealistic expectations, and those things only lead to more disappointment and bitterness. If you want to have a meaningful discussion of the direction comics should move in, you have to have a starting point that is based in reality, because any real plan has to address what actually is and why it is before there can be any effective or meaningful change. Without starting from reality and addressing the whys as to how it got that way, you might as well be calling for unicorns streaming rainbows in their wake every time you turn a page for all the realistic chance of it happening. -M Where is it written in the stars that I have to take into account the business realities of the industry in a thread like this? Can I discuss, in any thread, why I'd like to live in Guernsey - and how great it would be? Can I just do that? Or would I need to take into account, and add, the financial realities of why I can't currently move to Guernsey. Can't a guy dream? I can (and do) express a preference for fewer PPV events/shorter episode running times for WWE. I am not suggesting or believing that WWE will willingly and knowingly lose money. That'd be absurd. But I can express a preference for change. And I can do that - surely? - with regards to comics. There are topics here, such as the comic shop topic, which can and do take into account the business realities. And a topic called "The financial reality of Marvel's future output" is the perfect place to bring up facts and figures. I just don't think it's necessarily compulsory. One, such as myself, can express a desire for fewer crossovers/fewer events - and it aint mandatory to include the business reality in there. True, I like it when anyone here shares financial facts and figures. And I get it. But there's no harm in dreaming of an industry that puts out comics with standalone tales, has fewer crossovers, has events only ever few years, etc. |
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Post by james on Oct 11, 2019 5:29:24 GMT -5
Kang
Future Foundation
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 11, 2019 15:31:35 GMT -5
Expressing preferences is all well and good, but any discussion of a direction for comics that does not take into account the business realities of the industry is just wishful thinking and unrealistic expectations, and those things only lead to more disappointment and bitterness. If you want to have a meaningful discussion of the direction comics should move in, you have to have a starting point that is based in reality, because any real plan has to address what actually is and why it is before there can be any effective or meaningful change. Without starting from reality and addressing the whys as to how it got that way, you might as well be calling for unicorns streaming rainbows in their wake every time you turn a page for all the realistic chance of it happening. -M True, I like it when anyone here shares financial facts and figures. And I get it. But there's no harm in dreaming of an industry that puts out comics with standalone tales, has fewer crossovers, has events only ever few years, etc. But Taxidriver, Manga doesn't do those things ever, and nobody ever buys Manga. Why Shonen Jump only sells 1.5 million copies every week, and millions more in reprint collections of individual story. Why would you do that when you can sell 100,000 copies of Shitty Crossover # 6,356 is a country more than twice the size, to an audience that won't care in the slightest 2 months from now when you release the trade? You have to think about business models! |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 11, 2019 15:37:54 GMT -5
I mean, we understand the business model of American Comics. It just seems pretty clear that limiting the potential buying audience of such an innately populist medium as comics to the most hardcore of fans so that you can bilk them out of as much money as possible is (A) a bad financial decision - look at how much more comics sell in countries that make comics for people who don't have an advance degree in Crisis Studies, and (B) culturally damaging to the perception of the art form as a whole.
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Post by The Captain on Oct 11, 2019 15:53:31 GMT -5
...that this thread even exists. Yes, I've contributed to it (and those who know me know the topic I wrote about), but to a first-time or only occasional visitor or new member to the site, what does it say about our community that we devote even a little time and energy to writing about the things we DON'T like about comics, when we should be celebrating comics?
I'm going to do something about changing the tone. Check out my new thread, coming shortly.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 11, 2019 17:50:49 GMT -5
Comics has always been an industry of quantity over quality and quick money grabs from the 1930s to the present. Comic fans just don't want to accept that it was that when when they liked hte comics being produced and want to blame that for the comics when they don't like the ones being produced. That's a blanket assessment. Even at EC, where shock was used to attract readers, there were deliberate, new avenues of storytelling implemented to challenge readers in ways never seen before that time in a comic. That's more than a money grab, and it was not a lucky coincidence. If the entire industry was nothing except quantity over quality, few would have dared to challenge the stagnant way comics had been produced, and the industry would have died off long ago. When it gets to the stage where publishers just crank out one loud, overblown, seen-it-all-before, so-called "event" after another "this changes everything" / "shock" reboot after another, the medium becomes irrelevant--which has been the case for over 20 years, since its biggest publishers insist one going back to those long-dried up wells that fail to inspire new generations to energetically support new ideas--or revolutions (because its not happening) in the way they did at key, historic points in now long in the distant past. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2019 18:31:37 GMT -5
I hate the fact that Juggernaut has never fought Destroyer. Talk about the irresistible force meeting the immovable object!
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Post by lordyam on Oct 12, 2019 2:10:04 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings on Crossovers. A few have been well regarded or stand above the heard (Annihilation is one I haven't read but which is consistently ranked high). Thing is Annihilation was a less explored area so the changes were more likely to stick. Secret Wars 2015 was a good story in that it really gave the Fantastic Four a good ending and even allowed Doom to be redeemed in a way that wasn't a complete asspull. If the story ended there it would be the PERFECT conclusion to Marvel's first family....but because of the gravy train they're inevitably brought back and Doom has his character development undone.
I also hate people who put Watchmen on a pedestal. It's a good comic but there are flaws (Nixon being president for 5 terms is sod breaking even by comics standards), but also the fact that sally jupiter had a child with the guy who tried to rape her is sleazy as all hell, and when you actually look at Ozymandias's plan it's actually incredibly stupid since people are ALWAYS going to find SOMETHING to disagree over (Doctor Strangelove parodies this with the Mineshaft Gap). Lex Luthor actually got it right in Doomsday Clock by pointing out how utterly stupid Ozy's plan really was.
This also extends to the idea Watchmen can NEVER have a sequel. When you have THAT much stuff left open ended people are going to want one regardless and while I understand not wanting a BAD sequel dismissing any sequel at all just seems silly (there have been great sequels made years later such as Blade Runner 2049).
Finally I hate lack of closure. One of the greatest Superman stories (the Black Ring where he and Luthor have their final duel prior to Flashpoint) was a PERFECT ending to Lex Luthor but the writers only got away with it because they were going to reboot. Otherwise they'd have brought Lex back. As mentioned earlier the fact that they're bringing back the F4 after SW2015 was such a perfect ending is also rather irritating.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 12, 2019 2:27:12 GMT -5
I HAD A LIST OF LIKE 700 THINGS AND THEN I READ The Captain's POST ABOVE. Now I don't feel like hating things anymore, and all my work is wasted. Thanks a lot. |
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 12, 2019 3:42:28 GMT -5
I HAD A LIST OF LIKE 700 THINGS AND THEN I READ The Captain 's POST ABOVE. Now I don't feel like hating things anymore, and all my work is wasted. Thanks a lot. Give it time. Loathing has a way of resurfacing, especially when it has long years of disillusionment underlying it. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 12, 2019 5:23:22 GMT -5
I HAD A LIST OF LIKE 700 THINGS AND THEN I READ The Captain 's POST ABOVE. Now I don't feel like hating things anymore, and all my work is wasted. Thanks a lot. Give it time. Loathing has a way of resurfacing, especially when it has long years of disillusionment underlying it. Ok, so my relationship with comics is that I like reading comics. If I had years of disillusionment I'd find another hobby. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 12, 2019 5:24:46 GMT -5
Probably little trains.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 6:15:01 GMT -5
For me, no matter the frustrations (e.g. finding "War of the Realms" daunting to try and read), and no matter the stories I read which I don't enjoy, 90% of what I do read is enjoyable for me. No regrets. I read the first volume of Justice League Dark recently. Loved it. I didn't enjoy some recent X-23 stories, but something always comes along to enjoy. Bit like taxi drivers, really. For every miserable, horrible, impolite driver, you'll find a dozen chatty, charming, affable, friendly souls. Won't say who I'm referring to, of course.  |
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