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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 13, 2017 13:18:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the info tarkintino and chaykinstevens!
Skull The Slayer has intrigued me...how does it stack up? I have long considered trying it and Kull. Conan too, which I have read some of the earlier stuff but it does not pull me in like superhero books do. I really, really loved the first three issues at the time, the Marv Wolfman ones. They were very much in the Edgar Rice Burroughs tradition, but with an added touch of modernity (the Bermuda triangle and space aliens being involved). High adventure, civilized people thrown into the age of the dinosaurs, etc. Then under Englehart and later Mantlo it suffered from two simultaneous syndromes: the "Sudden change of direction" syndrome, and the "Let's kill all these characters for shock value but oh whoops we better get them back as our hero now has no one to talk to" syndrome. The final issues and the Marvel-two-in-one conclusions tried to get back to the original concept, but you can't unscramble an egg so it didn't really work. The art also became sort of generic... Steve Gan had done an interesting job in the early issues, but was replaced by the ever-dependable but kind of by-the-numbers Sal Buscema. Overall I would definitely recommend it if you find the series at a low price, but wouldn't pay more than a couple of bucks for each issue. I never minded the meandering story so much, but agree it's not exactly essential ... worth reading if you can get it reasonably priced. I detested the 2-in-1 conclusion however, as it totally wiped out every bit of character development from the cast, making them all sort of inexplicably annoying.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 13, 2017 14:05:28 GMT -5
I have to say I'm kind of lukewarm to the Liberty Legion crossover. Some of it was crushing disappointment. I didn't get to see an issue of the Invaders until they were well into their second year. By that point, Roy and Frank were cooking of the book and had the team dynamic down, some credible threats, some nostalgia, and some great action. I had seen the blurb about the Liberty Legion earlier on and liked the name. I didn't get to even see a glimpse of them until late in the Invaders, when they have been taken out by the villain, en masse. They are out cold, chained up, for the entire story. Then, the next issue I saw was the last issue, with Whizzer and Miss America working with the team, against the Nazi JLAers (Master Man, Warrior Woman, U-Man, Baron Blood). When I hit college and found my first comic shop, I hunted down the Invaders and the Liberty Legion Marvel Premiere's. That crossover had been built up in my head and what was there was more epic than what was on the page. Also, Don Heck's art just didn't work for me. I like his Avengers work and some of his other stuff (and he was great with non-superhero tales); but, not here. Plus, I've never been much of a fan of brainwashed heroes fighting other heroes. I wanted to see them bashing Nazis.
Looking back on it, the story is good, though rather uneven, in stages. I do think the Invaders chapters are stronger than the Marvel Premiere ones.
As for classic characters, that's open to argument. Marvel may be top dog now; but, Timely was even in the top 5, in the Golden Age. They lived on the success of Cap, Namor, and the Torch, and by flooding the stands with knockoffs. Most of the Liberty Legion characters were minor back-up features, with few appearances. Patriot was popular and lasted through 1946; but, never got his own title. Whizzer lasted long enough to be part of Timely's late entry into super-teams, the All-Winners Squad (along with Miss America). However, he was considered to be a joke (name and costume lending itself to urinary jokes) and a por man's Flash (Johnny Quick was held in higher regard, too, thanks to Mort Meskin). Miss America was the lone one with her own title, which became a magazine format comic, with its second issue; but, she was overshadowed by romance stories and Patsy Walker, in her own book. Roy seemed to have the greatest fondness for Whizzer and Miss America, because of All-Winners, and uses them the most. The rest of the Legion mostly get cameos.
Timely had some more interesting, though also short-lived characters, which only later got some attention. The Twelve gathered a bunch of them and Thunderbolts brought Citizen V to the limelight (first as a fake, then the real hero and his legacy). The Destroyer shows up when Invaders hits the teens, and becomes a major component, for a brief period. He had one of the better visuals of Timely and some decent stories, though he was a Cap knockoff (written by Stan Lee). Black Marvel was mostly forgotten, until much later, as were the Blazing Skull and the original Vision. Both of those would have fit in well with the Legion, especially in their own stories, as they would add power to the group. If memory serves, in the climax of the Kree-Skrull War, Rick Jones brings forth Blazing Skull, Fin, Vision, Angel, Patriot, and Cap, Namor & the Torch. Don't know why he left some of those guys out, this time.
I kind of wish Roy had spent some more time developing the Liberty Legion. As it is, they kind of get tossed aside for a while, get a few cameos, then Whizzer and Miss America get to be a part of the end of the series. There is a whole lot you can do with these characters, since there is little history to them, though no one but Ed Brubaker and Kurt Busiek seemed to care, after Roy, apart from a few uses of characters like Blazing Skull (in the Midnight Sons title) and a few with the Vision and the others mentioned. Heck, I can't remember anyone even touching the Angel until Brubaker's Marvels Project, which lifts a lot from Invaders, Sgt Fury, the early Cap/Namor/Torch comics, and a few other things. Granted, he wasn't as high profile; but, he was certainly bigger, at the start, then guys like Captain Wonder and Blue Diamond.
For my money though, this storyline marks where Invaders really starts to take off. Apart from an interruption with a couple of reprints, disguised as flashbacks, Roy and Frank start throwing out new characters and missions at a lightning pace.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 13, 2017 15:58:40 GMT -5
codystarbuck , you point out one of the biggest differences between DC and Marvel, the absence of a rich Golden Age tradition (beyond Torch, Cap and Namor) and the lack of a deep bench. This first became apparent to me when I was buying Fantasy Masterpieces/ Marvel Super-Heroes. I LOVED the old stories, but it was clear that 1940s Timely was artistically more than a few steps behind DC. And their characters were inevitably more obscure. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it was usually because many of them had very short "lives." Compare that to the DC second-tier characters. Hell, Green Arrow and Aquaman have been published almost uninterrupedly for nearly 80 years. While I liked the idea of the Liberty Legion, they were hardly the JSA. They weren't even the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Didn't Roy play up the LL's status as bit players? Wasn't part of the reason for their existence that they were filling in for the Big Three on the homefront, b/c they just didn't have the required power or cachet to take the fight to the Axis directly? That's sure how it seemed. IIRC, the Invaders hadn't even heard of the LL when they first met. Myself, I though that the LL was probably introduced just a tad early in the run. Roy never met an obscure hero he didn't like, which was fine in the abstract, but in practice it meant that Roy was forever overloading the truck. Then he'd dump it it out in one issue and lots of good stuff got buried beneath his seeming impatience to cram every bit of World War Two, Timely back-up characters and homefront culture into a very few pages. His All-Star Squadron got like that for me, too. Just too many characters all at once. Makes you realize how deftly Len Wein handled the three-issue team-up among the JLA, JSA and Seven Soldiers. I wonder if that's why Roy later in the run did "solo" issues of certain characters...
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 13, 2017 17:01:20 GMT -5
codystarbuck , you point out one of the biggest differences between DC and Marvel, the absence of a rich Golden Age tradition (beyond Torch, Cap and Namor) and the lack of a deep bench. This first became apparent to me when I was buying Fantasy Masterpieces/ Marvel Super-Heroes. I LOVED the old stories, but it was clear that 1940s Timely was artistically more than a few steps behind DC. And their characters were inevitably more obscure. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it was usually because many of them had very short "lives." Compare that to the DC second-tier characters. Hell, Green Arrow and Aquaman have been published almost uninterrupedly for nearly 80 years. While I liked the idea of the Liberty Legion, they were hardly the JSA. They weren't even the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Didn't Roy play up the LL's status as bit players? Wasn't part of the reason for their existence that they were filling in for the Big Three on the homefront, b/c they just didn't have the required power or cachet to take the fight to the Axis directly? That's sure how it seemed. IIRC, the Invaders hadn't even heard of the LL when they first met. Myself, I though that the LL was probably introduced just a tad early in the run. Roy never met an obscure hero he didn't like, which was fine in the abstract, but in practice it meant that Roy was forever overloading the truck. Then he'd dump it it out in one issue and lots of good stuff got buried beneath his seeming impatience to cram every bit of World War Two, Timely back-up characters and homefront culture into a very few pages. His All-Star Squadron got like that for me, too. Just too many characters all at once. Makes you realize how deftly Len Wein handled the three-issue team-up among the JLA, JSA and Seven Soldiers. I wonder if that's why Roy later in the run did "solo" issues of certain characters... Good points and it highlights a problem I have with some of Roy's nostalgic comics. He's crafted good stories with these old characters; but, quite often, his desire to bring them as they were, in a more modern setting, doesn't quite work. The Liberty Legion would have been more interesting if he had fleshed them out more. Instead, it felt like he wanted to stick in these other old characters; but, he didn't like them enough to really do anything substantial with them. So, yeah, they felt like second stringers. I would also agree that All-Star Squadron got unwieldy; but, it was pretty focused for the first couple of years. By contrast, Len Wein kept the elements that were good in the original and then tweaked them for the modern audience. JMS did a bit of that, in the Twelve, though I kind of thought he overdid it a bit there, like he was trying to do a combination Captain America/Invaders/Watchmen. Brubaker did a nice job with Marvel's Project, mixing in elements of continuity with some new twists. He certainly did much to give the Angel some substance. When you look at the Golden Age, DC really had the depth and breadth of superheroes. Fawcett had the Marvel Family; but, the rest, like Mr Scarlet, Spy Smasher and Bullet Man just feel a bit average and mostly forgettable, other than Fawcett used some good artists. MLJ had some nice ideas; but never seemed to execute them as well as they could, though Charles Biro's shop did seem nicely pulpy stories with a few. It's no surprise that they were quickly upstaged by Archie. The Shield got there first, but he was rather boring, compared to Simon & Kirby's Captain America. I think that is why the revival attempts of the MLJ heroes always peters out quickly, as there isn't much to most of them. There is potential; but not much history. Quality did some fine superhero stories, but art always outdid story, there, with people like Lou Fine and Reed Crandall elevating some of the writing. Plastic Man and Blackhawk had the best stories; but, Quality had a pretty decent line of heroes, which is why they worked relatively well at DC (with Len Wein and others, as the Freedom Fighters). I liked James Robsinson's approach with Starman and The Golden Age (the mini), where he had a reverence for the characters; but not necessarily their old stories. He kept the good elements and added new twists, gave them more personality, made them more real. The Times Past stories in Starman used many an obscure character well, like the Quality Comics Jester, Phantom Lady, and even Alias the Spider. His Vigilante mini, with Bugsy Siegel and the Hollywood underworld, was really underrated and very good. I wish I could say the same for his use of some of the First Issue Special characters, from his Superman run.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 15, 2017 17:16:52 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere #30
The Cover Thought I would throw this in, with a nice piece of fan art showing what happen "one minute later". The original cover is nice. Kirby's Red Skull for sure but I feel that the background character really lack in detail. Also, does Skull always wear a one piece green suit? I have not read a lot of stuff with him in it from this timeframe and I must say, I don't dig the look.
The Story So last ish, Torch was flying towards the building where Bucky and Thin Man have set up base. Bucky and Thin Man flag Torch down (he seems to have not been heading to this exact spot) and they fight. Torch has them toasted but instead of finishing them, he takes off. This upsets Skull, and we get some fill in regarding how he first captured the Invaders (he was responsible for organizing the war bonds parade in order to get the Invaders right where he wanted them by disguising as the organizer, Bettman Lyles). We also learn that good ole Brain Drain invented the sky vortex....ah his legacy lives on. For as much of a role as he has had in the continuing stories here, I still wish they would have made him a better looking character.
It is then revealed that Skull's base is in the same building as the Liberty Legion, just in the basement. Skulls disguises himself as Lyles and goes up to get some inside info on the team. They have captured Toro, who proves he has his powers by jumping out a window and making a "V" shape in the sky in flames. This angers Skull/Lyles, and he leaves. That night, Skull broadcasts a message about a beat down against the Legion at good ole Yankee Stadium. So that is where we head, and a crowd is there to watch. Skull drops the Invaders from his zeppelin above. He uses the cloud cover to project his nullifying ray, allowing him better control over the Invaders.
Now it is here that the whole story becomes confusing for no reason, in my opinion. First, the bit back when Skull, disguised as Lyles, came asking questions. Apparently it was not Toro, it was Bucky who lept out the window. Then, it was Miss America who made the flaming V in the sky. Now, why did they disguise the fact that they had Toro? It is revealed that the team did determine Lyles was an imposter and the stunt supposedly allowed Skull to think that Toro was fine and would not still feel the effects of his controlling device and lead them to him (when in fact, Toro was hidden away unconscious and would be used to do exactly that)
Anyways, this elaborate ploy allows Bucky to sneak off while the others battle at the stadium. Toro is woken and he takes off, up to the zeppelin in the sky and well...fire + hydrogen = KABOOM!. The Invaders are released from Skull's control and they help the Legion stop the falling fiery fragments of the zeppelin from hurting the people at the stadium. The story finishes with Bucky getting recognition for his efforts in thwarting the Skull, who is presumed dead but hey....we know that is not true.
Opinions This was a bit of a letdown for me. Initially I was confused by Bucky's scheme to throw off the Skull. Plus I do not understand how Miss America creates fire during this odd plan. I just think they could have gone about it in a better way. Like maybe exclude the scene of Lyles/Skull needing proof that they have Toro? All this actually does is cause Skull to go back to and make his rays stronger anyways because he believes it to not be strong enough. It really just did not work and flow nicely and caused me to turn back several times to try and figure out what the heck they were getting at.
Also, Don Heck's art is worse than Robbins for me personally. I did not like it at all.
Quote of the Issue "Why didn't that firebrand obliterate those two upstart meddlers while he had the chance?"- Red Skull expressing his frustration at the beginning when Torch just takes off for base instead of fighting Bucky and Thin Man.
Roy's Ramblings There is a nice page explaining further the past appearances of the Liberty Legion. Roy also explains some of the changes they made, including some alterations to Patriot's costume, limiting some of Miss America's powers (she originally had X-ray vision) and also changing the color scheme on Thin Man (he was originally red and blue but there were already a lot of those colours used in this mag). Roy also expresses hopes of a Liberty Legion solo mag...something that obviously never came to fruition.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 16, 2017 0:36:29 GMT -5
The Red Skull appeared as you see him, in his earliest stories; and, pretty much the same when revived, with Cap (first via flashbacks). Eventually, he moved into other duds, including a variation on the SS dress uniform, which is what you mostly get these days (well, apart from the whole HYDRA replaces the Nazis take we seem to be stuck with). Lot of Golden Age villains had something along these lines, or a variation on a theatrical or circus costume.
I think this second part of the Marvel Premiere is probably most responsible for the Liberty Legion not getting the reception hoped; though, Roy has to shoulder some of it, as he doesn't really develop them and make them interesting. He had 4 issues; but, they don't exactly dominate the story. Bucky is more central to things and if you are playing second fiddle to the kid sidekick, you have problems.
I always liked the idea of the Liberty Legion; I just don't think Roy put in the effort he did in the All-Star Squadron. The later Kid Commandos (Bucky, Toro, Golden Girl and the Human Top) have similar problems. Roy seemed more content with throwing out characters as gimmicks, rather then developing them to add something more to the series, or to spin-off. I think he was more interested in inserting these old characters than doing something long term with them. He put far more into characters like Spitfire and Union Jack than he did for any of the Liberty Legion. With the Invaders, he seemed mostly interested in the big guns, and his own creations, than anything else. With All-Star Squadron, he seemed to be more interested in the lesser known heroes (or less seen), like Robotman, Liberty Belle, Johnny Quick, and Firebrand (which he gender swapped, replacing the original with a previously unknown sister). He centered the book on those characters, plus under-utilized JSAers, like Atom and Dr Midnite.
I said before I like Don Heck on the Avengers and some of his other work; but, not this. He really wasn't giving it his all. Robbins both understood the period and the pulpier nature of those old Timely stories and the Alex Schomburg covers. That really comes to the forefront in the next storyline.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 16, 2017 7:10:29 GMT -5
Yeah Heck's art was just so simple. His faces had no detail and he really failed to capture the final battle. A shame since the issues leading up to it worked yet they felt the need to stuff this last bit into Marvel Premiere. I get that they were hoping for bigger plans from the Liberty Legion but I can see why it wasn't as well received.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 16, 2017 10:36:12 GMT -5
Yeah Heck's art was just so simple. His faces had no detail and he really failed to capture the final battle. A shame since the issues leading up to it worked yet they felt the need to stuff this last bit into Marvel Premiere. I get that they were hoping for bigger plans from the Liberty Legion but I can see why it wasn't as well received. Take a look at who inked it. That may well have a lot to do with it. I suspect Vinnie Colleta needs to take a fair bit of the credit. Heck was never well suited to doing super-hero books. If you look at his earlier work it's heads and shoulders above most of his long-underwear books. He was, at heart, a romance artist. He was also very susceptible to his work being hacked by inkers. Heck also got a lot of rush assignments. So he was working on short deadlines.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 16, 2017 12:47:19 GMT -5
Yeah Heck's art was just so simple. His faces had no detail and he really failed to capture the final battle. A shame since the issues leading up to it worked yet they felt the need to stuff this last bit into Marvel Premiere. I get that they were hoping for bigger plans from the Liberty Legion but I can see why it wasn't as well received. Take a look at who inked it. That may well have a lot to do with it. I suspect Vinnie Colleta needs to take a fair bit of the credit. Heck was never well suited to doing super-hero books. If you look at his earlier work it's heads and shoulders above most of his long-underwear books. He was, at heart, a romance artist. He was also very susceptible to his work being hacked by inkers. Heck also got a lot of rush assignments. So he was working on short deadlines. And that's the thing; Heck was better at everyday stuff and was put on assignments that either didn't suit him or were, as said, rush jobs. He supposedly went to Kirby for help, in laying out superhero action sequences. If you look at his Iron Man stuff, he could really do the soap opera stuff, in and around the office and such; but, the action stuff was where he needed help. He wasn't alone in that. A lot of guys were put on superhero stuff that didn't suit them. They were put with inkers who didn't compliment them. They were so busy churning the stuff out that speed counted for more than artistic merit. By the time of The Invaders, Marvel was flooding the stands, again, with product. DC was doing the same, as both were also trying to squeeze Gold Key, Harvey, Archie and Charlton off the stands, not to mention each other. Heck was one of several casualties of the death of romance comics. There were guys who specialized in them, as well as others who did westerns and war comics. The more the companies churned out superheroes, the less work there was in other genres. The romance comics still had pretty good sales, when they were starting to be phased out. The more they disappeared, the more their audience did. They did have the problem that girls tended to move on from comics much faster than boys, so their turnover was higher. Also, there wasn't much continuity to keep readers, so they sampled more, rather then bought regularly. By the mid-70s, romance books were pretty much gone and the other comics that drew in young girls were either gone or starting to go on life support. By the end of the decades, the bulk of the female audience was gone and has never returned, in large numbers, apart from manga, which is really a separate market. I think if the publishers had made a more concerted effort in producing good romance comics and characters for the female audience, they would have been more successful, long term. Comics were a boys club, on the creative side, which didn't help.
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 17, 2017 1:04:22 GMT -5
Heck was never well suited to doing super-hero books. If you look at his earlier work it's heads and shoulders above most of his long-underwear books. He was, at heart, a romance artist. He was also very susceptible to his work being hacked by inkers. Heck also got a lot of rush assignments. So he was working on short deadlines. I appreciated Heck's Avengers run, as he brought a--shall I say--more "realistic" vision of how superheroes would appear if real, sort of like the rough work of a police sketch artist: stylish, but just real enough.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Sept 17, 2017 8:09:08 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere #30
The Cover Thought I would throw this in, with a nice piece of fan art showing what happen "one minute later".
It's not fan art, but a commision drawn and coloured by Chris Ivy, who worked as an infer for Marvel and DC in the 90s. Here's a link to some more Invaders "One Minute Later" commisions: link
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 17, 2017 18:13:29 GMT -5
Invaders #7
The Cover I like this cover but it definitely is not all Kirby. I think Frank Giacoia gets credit on most sites I found. At any rate, the only thing I would change is the face on Baron Blood. It looks better on the interior pages. I like the background of the moon and the London cityscape.
The Story So the team starts off back in London, battling some Nazi planes. They take them down, and we see Torch wanting some alone time to think about how he is not human like the others. This seems to be a semi-recurring theme in these stories, as Torch realizes he is not like Cap or Bucky or even Namor and seems to struggle with his android origin. While the others grab a bite to eat (and Namor seeks a break underwater), Torch is off walking and passes a lady (Jacqueline) with another soldier. Moments later, the woman screams and Torch rushes to find her being attacked by...Baron Blood! A brief battle ensues but the Baron escapes. Torch offers to drive Jacqueline home where he meets her father, Lord Falsworth.
Her father feels compelled to share his history, telling Torch that during WWI, he was Union Jack! During this, his daughter mentions Baron Blood has returned. Lord Falsworth explains that the Baron was a threat that he and some other costumed heroes back then could never defeat. The Torch feels the need to summon his friends, and does the flaming V in the sky. Cap, Bucky and Toro see it and take off in Namor's plane. En route, they literally run into Baron Blood. During the collision, the Baron escapes again. The team manages to land the damaged ship, must to Namor's chagrin, as he arrives by his own accord. We see the Baron land somewhere and disguise himself.
The team is invited in for dinner. Just before they are all to sit down, Lord Falsworth introduces his nephew...who is actually Baron Blood in disguise!
Opinions I like this intro to Baron Blood. I also like the meeting with Union Jack. I was not a big fan of the other characters he rolled with during the first war and I hope we don't see them. I am intrigued to find out the relationship between Falsworth and Baron Blood (if there is one or if the Baron is just pulling this charade).
Quote of the Issue "Hey, if you're the Human Torch, will you burn your autograph into this car for me"- the response Torch says he normally gets when people meet him.
Roy's Blurb Roy has a blurb on the letter's page thanking fans for their letters because now Invaders is becoming a monthly title! He also promises the next dozen issues to be great...which is what I am expecting at this point in a series. Or, at least quality superhero fun. Time will tell with my future reviews!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 18:39:03 GMT -5
OpinionsI like this intro to Baron Blood. I also like the meeting with Union Jack. I was not a big fan of the other characters he rolled with during the first war and I hope we don't see them. I am intrigued to find out the relationship between Falsworth and Baron Blood (if there is one or if the Baron is just pulling this charade). I'm excited for you if this your first time experiencing Baron Blood.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Sept 17, 2017 19:06:46 GMT -5
Have never read anything with him. I do think I have one of his appearance in Cap from the early 80s...its in my always growing "to read" pile.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 17, 2017 20:31:00 GMT -5
Roy isn't just blowing smoke; the next dozen issue are great (though there is at least one, if not two reprints, taking up most of the book). You will enjoy the next issue, as it addresses your questions.
Union Jack was a great idea. The rest of the freedom's Five are fairly forgettable. Phantom Eagle had already appeared in Marvel Super-Heroes. He's a bit of an Enemy Ace knockoff, though on the Allied side. Not particularly memorable, though Garth Ennis had some good, pulpy fun with him. Union Jack, though, just fits perfectly with british patriotism; their Captain America. Roy writes a pretty darn good two (and a bit) parter here, which doubles as a good superhero story and a pretty good vampire tale. It would set up the classic story from Roger Sterne and John Byrne, as well later takes on modern Union Jacks, and Paul grist's excellent Jack Staff, which began life as a proposal for a Union Jack story.
Lord Montgomery Falsworth proved memorable enough to turn up in Captain America: The First Avenger, as one of the Howling Commandos (essentially replacing Percy Pinkerton, as the resident Brit). If you look closely at his web gear, in the film, it forms the Union Jack cross. I still wish they had held out for a full-on Invaders appearance and the Howler's but, it wasn't a bad compromise.
This is where the series really became a classic for me. It's a nice mixture of a superhero team book, a war comic, a horror comic, and a bit of history, all rolled up into one.
Torch is plagued with self-doubt, especially over the next few issues. Roy replayed a lot of Vision material, here, though some of it was there, at the start, in the original Torch adventures. Same with Namor. Roy continued the cliche of in-fighting within the team, for dramatic conflict. There is nothing wrong with that; but, over time, the characters should work things out. With the Avengers, you could throw in new members to upset the balance, but having the same characters always in conflict gets a little old, over time. One of the things I liked about Marv Wolfman, on New Teen Titans, was that he moved beyond that and had them come together as a team, eventually settling rivalries and developing mutual respect and friendship. He let them evolve more than a lot of writers, Roy included, often did. Roy doesn't go too overboard with it, though.
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