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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 10, 2017 20:40:06 GMT -5
Edit: Spinning out of the Starman thread. In contrast to the "All '90s Comics are Bad, Meme"... DC Comics were just KILLING it in the '90s in a way no major (certainly no corporate) publishing company ever has before or since. DC published 7 Miles a Second in 1996. The would not have published anything like it - an expressionistic, experimental, memoir about a gay man who dies of AIDS - in 1986. They would not publish anything like that today.* Karen Berger is a genius and there was a lot of great talent around at the time and blah.. blah.. blah... But more than that I think this is due to the newness of DC publishing adult comics. How does this work? We dunno. Berger at Vertigo and the various Paradox Press editors just published anything they thought was good and hoped to hell that some of it caught on. The market had changed so much that they weren't sure WHAT was going to connect. Understanding Comics, Sandman, Stuck Rubber Baby, a History of Violence, Road to Perdition, a BUNCH of offbeat and (potentially) offputting creator driven work from Peter Milligan**. And the pre-Vertigo books that were Vertigo-ized (Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Swamp Thing... etc.) all had some great runs during the '90s. Friggin' Gregory. DC published friggin' Gregory, which is the most Slave Labor comic imaginable.  And they published superhero books, too. They were fine. They are completely irrelevant to my argument, but there were a lot of decent, readable, if not groundbreaking super books coming out of DC in the '80s. The quality of DC (minus the imprints) was comparable to Marvel in the '80s (minus Epic.) If nothing else, DC's bread-and-butter superhero line was a damn sight more readable than their closest competitors. (Side argument: Marvel's worst decade was the '90s.) And their was some especially strong work from the Milestone and Wildstorm imprints. I'd defend Icon (from the former) as the strongest old-school superhero book of the decade and the latter.... well, a whole LINE of comics written by Alan Moore - and a damn sight better than what he had been doing for Image - was nothing to sneeze at.*** Add to that some very, VERY strong work aimed specifically at younger readers in the Superman and Batman adventures books, and you have (by far) the strongest decade any major comics publisher has had up to this point. *When it was reprinted a few years back, it had a Fantagraphics logo on the front. Today Fanta cares about publishing quality art that they believe in. And DC no longer does. ** Including Enigma, which is the best superhero comic published in my lifetime. Frickin' love Milligan. I mean, he was great but he went so much further into challenging, uncomfortable territory than any other writer in mainstream comics. He was the best comics dude at freaking out the squares since Crumb, and that need to count for a lot if comics are to maintain their era of filthy disreputability in the age of literary graphic novels. Flex Mentallo, another '90s DC, is the second greatest superhero comic of my lifetime. *** ABC was launched in 1999 so it was a late decade addition. But the line was never stronger than it was right at the beginning, back when many of the books came out kind of monthly-ish. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 11, 2017 0:15:51 GMT -5
I don't know if I would say they peaked in the 90s; it kind of depends on your definition of a peak. You could argue that they peaked in 1988-89, as the entire line was doing quite well and was the darling of the outside media, culminating in the mega-hit Tim Burton Batman film. After that, you have spectacular sales for stunts, like the Death of Superman and Knightfall. The superhero books started to fade more than a little by the mid-90s. Vertigo really came into its own with the 90s and certainly carried the company, in terms of quality. Piranha Press and Paradox press proved to be imprints dealing in prestige, if not commercial success. I agree that they produced some of the best material of the era, with things like the Cowboy Wally Show, Epicurus the Sage, Gregory and the Big Book of series, while Vertigo was riding high on the likes of Doom Patrol and Sandman (Swamp Thing was pretty much waning) and a slew of idiosyncratic titles, many with British talent involved. In those terms, you could argue that quality peaked in the 90s, though, looking at much of their other offerings, you couldn't say that about the company, as a whole.
I'd say, at that point, DC was a bit bi-polar, acting as a publishing giant with their superhero comics and and indie publisher, with Vertigo. In the 80s, they were quite like an indie publisher with a much bigger checkbook, as they were willing to try almost anything (except for Swamp Thing meeting Jesus), if they thought it might attract an audience. Once they were back up near the top and were getting outside press, they started getting a bit more conservative in their approach. They more daring editors were more on the fringe, lake Karen Berger and Archie Goodwin, as well as Andy Helfer (with Paradox Press and some of the superhero books) and Mark Nevelow (who orchestrated Piranha Press).
In terms of sales, DC peaked in the 1940s or 50s, when they had circulations in the millions.
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Post by hondobrode on Oct 11, 2017 7:48:08 GMT -5
I largely agree that DC was on fire in the 90's.
Vertigo, of course,
as well as Helix (Transmetropolitan),
Wildstorm was a major force,
America's Best Comics had the strongest little line of talent with Tom Strong, Promethea, and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,
the Homage line including the relaunch of Kurt Busiek's Astro City,
and the DCU had the popular Elseworlds and Tangent Comics.
Morrison was on Doom Patrol and Justice League. The Super titles were in the Triangle Era of greatness and the Death of Superman. Batman was broken by Bane. The legacy characters were introduced or highlighted : Connor Hawke, Kyle Rayner, Wally West.
Paul Levitz and Karen Berger were doing things right. They were taking chances and doing things besides The Same Old Spandex.
Yes, DC was rockin' in the 90's.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 11, 2017 9:15:23 GMT -5
Wildstorm/Homage were part of Image, then, and the ABC line didn't start until 1999; so, it was more of a factor in the 00s. In terms of Imprints, Milestone's success is probably more relevant to 90s DC. Helix is certainly relevant, though its success falls mostly below Paradox Press. Transmetropolitan is definitely the star of the line, though Sheva's War, from Christopher Moeller, was my favorite.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 10:06:49 GMT -5
I'm currently buying more DC than I have bought in over 15 years. they are KILLING it with the "Metal" series and crossovers, the "Mr Oz" storyline currently in the Supes books (as well as in Detective), the Batman/Flash "button" crossover. really. . most of the books since Rebirth have been excellent. and with the announcements recently of Milestone, and Vertigo coming "back" ? I think 2017/2018 might rival the 90's in terms of how great DC is doing. now if ONLY we can get a Legion book  |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 11, 2017 10:17:02 GMT -5
I read more in the 90's of DC than I did Marvel, despite having more exposure to Marvel's characters via TV than DC.
Batman in general but also
Batman - Legends of the Dark Knight
Batman Elseworlds
Batman Prestige format books becoming a more regular thing than before
Batman Adventures since I watched Batman TAS
I also liked the young characters taking legacy characters' names. I was hooked on GL and GA, and read some Flash (how I discovered Salvador Larroca's art) Kyle and Conner (god though I hate that name ... stop naming boys that white parents!) were two of my favorite characters, and I read both titles till the end.
I dabbled in the Tangent comics. I got much more of Amalgam . Legend of the Dark Claw? Holy crap how can you make Wolverine and Batman cooler and more badass? Combined them into a single character! All the Amalgam comics were at least entertaining to me. Some more than others, but most if not all I never regretted buying. I don't know how much Amalgam and many of the other Marvel/DC and/or DC/Dark Horse comics you'd credit to DC as far as what the OP is talking about since it was a joint effort. But I liked at lot of those crossovers in the 90's too. Batman/Grendel being one of my favorites.
Then there were a few short lived DC titles, mini series or one shots that I liked; Firebrand, Takion, Heckler, Final Night, Swamp Thing: Roots, Superman: War of the Worlds.
One of my favorite DC stories ever in Justice League Quarterly #2 by Keith Giffin.
There was also in the late 90's DC did a one shot issue of some golden age stories, I remember. One I have is Thrilling Comics #1, about Hawkman if I remember right. Also one about Wonder Woman, I am pretty sure I have. I remember liking those, though I didn't really know the golden age versions of these DC characters.
And then the Batman & Superman World's Finest 10 issue mini series written by Karl Kesel.
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Post by MDG on Oct 11, 2017 11:46:18 GMT -5
I don't know if I would say they peaked in the 90s; it kind of depends on your definition of a peak. You could argue that they peaked in 1988-89, as the entire line was doing quite well and was the darling of the outside media, culminating in the mega-hit Tim Burton Batman film. I agree about the 80s; it seemed DC was really trying to look for new audiences, with Vertigo as well as things like Nathaniel Dusk. They were also intentionally developing a more mature (industry, not personalities) way of working with talent. One thing DC had way over Marvel, especially as new formats and bookstore reprints began to appear, was that they took design seriously. DCs books looked great, while Marvels often seemed to be thrown together. Here's an example: the back cover of a Marvel prestige-format one-shot called The Draft:  "Hey, should we put something in the middle there? 20 words about the book? A logo? A big question mark? Anything?" "Nah, it's fine." In the meantime, DC was putting out books that looked like this:  Paul Levitz and Karen Berger were doing things right. They were taking chances and doing things besides The Same Old Spandex. I'd also give Jeanette Kahn and Dick Giordano a lot of credit. |
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Post by badwolf on Oct 11, 2017 12:05:05 GMT -5
I'd certainly agree about Vertigo and other "alternative" books. And Doug Moench's Batman (at least the ones with Kelley Jones, which are the ones I read) were great. Starman, I am recently discovering, was great.
They definitely peaked in certain areas...not sure about the company as a whole.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 11, 2017 12:36:02 GMT -5
I don't know if I would say they peaked in the 90s; it kind of depends on your definition of a peak. You could argue that they peaked in 1988-89, as the entire line was doing quite well and was the darling of the outside media, culminating in the mega-hit Tim Burton Batman film. I agree about the 80s; it seemed DC was really trying to look for new audiences, with Vertigo as well as things like Nathaniel Dusk. They were also intentionally developing a more mature (industry, not personalities) way of working with talent. One thing DC had way over Marvel, especially as new formats and bookstore reprints began to appear, was that they took design seriously. DCs books looked great, while Marvels often seemed to be thrown together. Here's an example: the back cover of a Marvel prestige-format one-shot called The Draft: "Hey, should we put something in the middle there? 20 words about the book? A logo? A big question mark? Anything?" "Nah, it's fine." In the meantime, DC was putting out books that looked like this: Paul Levitz and Karen Berger were doing things right. They were taking chances and doing things besides The Same Old Spandex. I'd also give Jeanette Kahn and Dick Giordano a lot of credit. Whole-heartedly agree. DC's design team was highly unsung and they put together some winning packages. Also agree about Kahn and Giordano. Kahn really doesn't get enough credit in comic histories for saving DC Comics. By the mid-70s, they were a mess. Kahn was brought in from the world of book and magazine publishing, where she had big hits with children's magazines, including Dynamite, for Scholastic. That thing was a favorite of my classmates, with the Scholastic book order program. It also featured Batman comics, which helped bring her profile to Warner. Kahn set out to drag DC into modern publishing, kicking and screaming all the way. She quickly found allies in young editor Paul Levitz, Joe Orlando, and Neal Adams. The old guard fought, but Kahn was tough. She was able to get Giordano to come back from the advertising world and return to doing what he did best (aside from drawing), editing and developing talent. It took time. DC went through some rocky events, like the Implosion; but, Kahn focused on what was working and the late 70s saw DC's quality begin to rise. By the 80s, her efforts were paying off, as we would see in new Teen Titans. She established a royalty program and creator incentives, which helped draw talent away from marvel and the emerging indies. She recruited editors from outside of traditional comics, like Karen berger and Barbara Randall. She enticed some long-time Marvel editors to come over, like Louise Simonson and brought Denny O'Neil back to the fold. The momentum built in the early 80s, culminating in DC's 50th anniversary and Crisis on Infinite Earths. After that, they exploded with great books and talent. |
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Post by MDG on Oct 11, 2017 13:51:03 GMT -5
Whole-heartedly agree. DC's design team was highly unsung and they put together some winning packages. Also agree about Kahn and Giordano. Kahn really doesn't get enough credit in comic histories for saving DC Comics.... She was able to get Giordano to come back from the advertising world and return to doing what he did best (aside from drawing), editing and developing talent.... Kahn was a hard sell for me, since she displaced Carmine (plus, she was--and i assume still is-- a girl). But she did good. I think that Giordano, as well as Joe Orlando, were much more effective as editors than artists. Whereas 30 years after the fact, I feel Carmine's greatest contribution to comics was setting the Silver Age style at DC (for the Schwartz books, anyway). And producing a lot of beautiful work. |
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Post by hondobrode on Oct 11, 2017 15:29:10 GMT -5
Not downplaying Giordano or Khan's achievements, but those were more in the 80's IMO.
Atlantis Chronicles
the Adam Strange mini
Books of Magic
Batman / Judge Dredd
the Challengers of the Unknown mini
Batman : Sword of Azrael
Batman vs Predator
Batman : Brotherhood of the Bat
Batman : Mitefall
Batman / Captain America
Batman : Black & White
Batman : Thrillkiller
Batman : War on Crime
Enemy Ace : War Idyll
Hawkworld
The Golden Age
Darkseid vs Galactus : The Hunger
Final Night
Jack Kirby's Fourth World
JLA : The Nail
DC One Million
Elseworlds Eighty Page Giant
Fanboy
JSA
Kingdom Come
L.E.G.I.O.N.
Legionnaires
Legion of Super-Heroes
Lobo Paramilitary Christmas Special
Night Force 2nd series
Power of Shazam
The Question Returns
Secret Origins
Superboy
Supergirl
Superman & Batman Generations
Superman / Fantastic Four
Superman For Earth
Superman vs Aliens
Valor
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 11, 2017 15:44:38 GMT -5
Understanding Comics, Sandman, Stuck Rubber Baby, a History of Violence, Road to Perdition, a BUNCH of offbeat and (potentially) offputting creator driven work from Peter Milligan**. According to GCD, Understanding Comics was published by Tundra in 1993 and HarperCollins in 1994, and wasn't published by DC until 1999. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 11, 2017 15:56:04 GMT -5
I agree that they produced some of the best material of the era, with things like the Cowboy Wally Show, Epicurus the Sage, Gregory and the Big Book of series, while Vertigo was riding high on the likes of Doom Patrol and Sandman (Swamp Thing was pretty much waning) and a slew of idiosyncratic titles, many with British talent involved. Do you mean Why I Hate Saturn? The Cowboy Wally Show was published by Doubleday in 1988 and reprinted by DC in 2003. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 11, 2017 16:02:11 GMT -5
I agree that they produced some of the best material of the era, with things like the Cowboy Wally Show, Epicurus the Sage, Gregory and the Big Book of series, while Vertigo was riding high on the likes of Doom Patrol and Sandman (Swamp Thing was pretty much waning) and a slew of idiosyncratic titles, many with British talent involved. Do you mean Why I Hate Saturn? The Cowboy Wally Show was published by Doubleday in 1988 and reprinted by DC in 2003. Yeah, I did mean that. Got my Kyle Baker projects mixed up. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 11, 2017 16:08:43 GMT -5
I think that Giordano, as well as Joe Orlando, were much more effective as editors than artists. Whereas 30 years after the fact, I feel Carmine's greatest contribution to comics was setting the Silver Age style at DC (for the Schwartz books, anyway). And producing a lot of beautiful work. Infantino was the one who hired Orlando and Giordano as editors (also Joe Kubert and Jack Kirby). That may be his greatest contribution. |
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