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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 18:40:38 GMT -5
I just wish they hadn’t leaked the ending: {Spoiler: Click to show}  |
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Post by Randle-El on Nov 29, 2017 21:28:37 GMT -5
Totally agreed, but the source material also had a much larger cast of heroes, many of them wielding impressive powers. There was at least some small measure of belief that they might stand some small chance of stopping Thanos if you couldn't even keep track of all the ultra powerful heroes who were present. This is a far more paltry showing in contrast. Agreed, I just think the original story would have been a little less silly if the writers had stuck with the really powerful characters and major cosmic entities. I distinctly remember some of the heroes being taken out in pretty embarrassing ways. Didn't Wolverine have his skeleton turned to mush, and Cyclops had an unbreakable box put around his head so he couldn't breathe or fire optic blasts? It's the same problem I have with DC and Batman fighting in big superhuman battles. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 29, 2017 21:33:54 GMT -5
I'm intrigued and I say this as someone who's pretty indifferent to most of the MCU output.
That said, I'm more interested in this from an industry perspective than a comic fan one. With such a massive story and cast, the budgets on these two movies are going to be insane. If one of these flops, it could sink the entire comic book film industry faster than Heaven's Gate sank the New Hollywood movement. If they manage to pull this off, it's a damn near Herculean feat.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Nov 30, 2017 1:24:44 GMT -5
Totally agreed, but the source material also had a much larger cast of heroes, many of them wielding impressive powers. There was at least some small measure of belief that they might stand some small chance of stopping Thanos if you couldn't even keep track of all the ultra powerful heroes who were present. This is a far more paltry showing in contrast. Agreed, I just think the original story would have been a little less silly if the writers had stuck with the really powerful characters and major cosmic entities. I distinctly remember some of the heroes being taken out in pretty embarrassing ways. Didn't Wolverine have his skeleton turned to mush, and Cyclops had an unbreakable box put around his head so he couldn't breathe or fire optic blasts? It's the same problem I have with DC and Batman fighting in big superhuman battles. It's been a while since I read the entire thing, but I distinctly remember Adam Warlock reiterating that the heroes didn't even have a chance of a chance of a chance to stop Thanos. It was just a hail mary attempt to distract him for a moment so Surfer could try and cop the gauntlet. Thanos being cocky and playing around the heroes for a minute or so is the only reason they didn't instantly get axed. Personally I think that is a glaring issue with the narrative. I don't see why Thanos would toy around with the people trying to stop them when he could get rid of them with a thought. Of course the story would be over once he puts on the glove I guess. Maybe that is how it should have ended. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Nov 30, 2017 3:31:41 GMT -5
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Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2017 8:29:17 GMT -5
It's been a while since I read the entire thing, but I distinctly remember Adam Warlock reiterating that the heroes didn't even have a chance of a chance of a chance to stop Thanos. It was just a hail mary attempt... Sure. But we didn't actually believe him. They always say it's impossible.  |
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Post by Randle-El on Nov 30, 2017 10:34:00 GMT -5
It's been a while since I read the entire thing, but I distinctly remember Adam Warlock reiterating that the heroes didn't even have a chance of a chance of a chance to stop Thanos. It was just a hail mary attempt to distract him for a moment so Surfer could try and cop the gauntlet. Thanos being cocky and playing around the heroes for a minute or so is the only reason they didn't instantly get axed. Personally I think that is a glaring issue with the narrative. I don't see why Thanos would toy around with the people trying to stop them when he could get rid of them with a thought. Of course the story would be over once he puts on the glove I guess. Maybe that is how it should have ended. I think the set-up with the story is flawed. If the gauntlet is as powerful as it was supposed to be, then he should have been unbeatable. Even having just a few of the stones would have given him a long list of abilities that would have prevented anyone from reasonably challenging him. That Thanos would in some way divest himself of his power is really just a plot device so that the story doesn't end in two pages. In a lot of ways, I think the Infinity Gauntlet story was the culmination of the event stories of the 80s and 90s constantly trying to top one another in terms of sheer scale and scope. There was nowhere left to go except have the heroes fight God. Except the writers realized nobody can beat God, so God has to not be God for a couple of issues just to make it a fair fight. Personally, I think the MCU movies need to take the overpowered nature of the gauntlet into account and let the next two Avengers movies be about Thanos's attempt to acquire all the stones, rather than him actually succeeding. If he actually gets all the stones, I can't see how the movies can end in his defeat without some similar contrivance as in the comics. By the way, just to be clear -- I'm not a hater and I actually like the Infinity Gauntlet story, but mostly in a 13-year-old sort of way. If I picked up the story now for the first time, I think I'd probably roll my eyes at it. But there are things that you enjoy within their context, and for me this is definitely one of them. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2017 10:43:34 GMT -5
Personally, I think the MCU movies need to take the overpowered nature of the gauntlet into account and let the next two Avengers movies be about Thanos's attempt to acquire all the stones, rather than him actually succeeding. If he actually gets all the stones, I can't see how the movies can end in his defeat without some similar contrivance as in the comics. This is why I've felt that Thanos Quest is a better story than Infinity Gauntlet. But you can't tell the story of Thanos Quest in an Avengers film. Thanos has to be the protagonist for it to work. My hope is that this film will fix the fundamental flaw in the original IG story by somehow making the odds believable while also accurately representing the power of the infinity gems, but I don't see how they're going to pull that off, and I've yet to see a Marvel film actually give all that much thought to its plot. Likely, they'll throw a ton of action and CG at us in the hopes that we never stop to question the logic of the struggle. |
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Post by rberman on Nov 30, 2017 11:06:09 GMT -5
My hope is that this film will fix the fundamental flaw in the original IG story by somehow making the odds believable while also accurately representing the power of the infinity gems, but I don't see how they're going to pull that off, and I've yet to see a Marvel film actually give all that much thought to its plot. Likely, they'll throw a ton of action and CG at us in the hopes that we never stop to question the logic of the struggle. Well, all they have to do is say "The gauntlet makes Thanos really powerful!" instead of "The gauntlet makes Thanos omnipotent and invincible!" How powerful? Powerful enough to be a credible threat, but one whose eventual defeat is also credible. I did kinda like the conclusion of Secret Wars I, where Dr. Doom received godlike power without godlike knowledge or wisdom, and found that he couldn't keep himself from repeatedly resurrecting Captain America. They could crib some version of that to show that power is only helpful in hands of those who know how to use it properly. Or they could use a "betrayed from within" like how Silver Surfer turned on Galactus in their first appearance, or how the Marcus-clone subverted Kang in the Damocles arc in Avengers. That path allows for some character drama, and Nebula and/or Gamora seem likely candidates to make it happen somehow. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2017 11:10:46 GMT -5
My hope is that this film will fix the fundamental flaw in the original IG story by somehow making the odds believable while also accurately representing the power of the infinity gems, but I don't see how they're going to pull that off, and I've yet to see a Marvel film actually give all that much thought to its plot. Likely, they'll throw a ton of action and CG at us in the hopes that we never stop to question the logic of the struggle. Well, all they have to do is say "The gauntlet makes Thanos really powerful!" instead of "The gauntlet makes Thanos omnipotent and invincible!" How powerful? Powerful enough to be a credible threat, but one whose eventual defeat is also credible. That's probably what they will do, but it seems like a cheap solution to me. Well that was really the point of both Thanos story arcs (1970s and 1990s). Both times, he attains godlike powers, but his own psyche gets in the way and creates his downfall because his mind is still human (or Titan). They did that in the original story too with Nebula. |
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Post by Randle-El on Nov 30, 2017 14:11:42 GMT -5
My hope is that this film will fix the fundamental flaw in the original IG story by somehow making the odds believable while also accurately representing the power of the infinity gems, but I don't see how they're going to pull that off, and I've yet to see a Marvel film actually give all that much thought to its plot. Likely, they'll throw a ton of action and CG at us in the hopes that we never stop to question the logic of the struggle. Well, all they have to do is say "The gauntlet makes Thanos really powerful!" instead of "The gauntlet makes Thanos omnipotent and invincible!" How powerful? Powerful enough to be a credible threat, but one whose eventual defeat is also credible. If they did that, it would have to be a retcon. Just to use one of the stones as an example, the eye of Agamotto (which is presumably an Infinity Stone as folks have been speculating) has the property to control time. That by itself is HUGE. If someone can stop time, turn back time, etc. by sheer force of will, they are pretty much unstoppable in a lot of ways. This is why I'm leery of stories that have to rely on time travel or time manipulation. Unless there is some plausible reason why that limits the use of it, the hero or villain should be able to do whatever they want. The show Heroes that was on NBC a few years ago had a character that could stop time and travel through time. They were constantly coming up with ways to nerf his ability, probably because they realized that a character that could do that could do anything. |
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 30, 2017 15:25:33 GMT -5
I just can't wrap my head around how they're going to make the story work. Scenario 1: They follow the basic premise of the comic, and Thanos already has all the gems (his obtaining them is told in flashback). In this circumstance, heroes like Spiderman and Black Panther would be absolutely worthless. You could spend two hours watching Cap coordinate attacks between Hulk and Thor that ultimately accomplish nothing, but not those guys. Scenario 2: Thanos is still attempting to acquire all the gems. Why are all of Earth's heroes there stopping him? Are all the remaining gems on Earth??? Way back when I was reviewing both Thanos Sagas ( here and here) I concluded that the only Thanos story that truly and completely worked was Thanos Quest, because that was the one time it was Thanos' story and not a bunch of heroes hopelessly attempting to thwart him for the millionth time when we knew they couldn't succeed. Maybe they'll just significantly de-power the Infinity Gems? That's the problem with overpowered villains vs. gimmicky overpopulation of heroes--it tends to be unbelievable, as each hero is underpowered, or just outclassed by the Big Bad. But the MCU can't get out of its own way (sort of like Marvel's comics of the 80s and 90s), so we get what almost promises to be low angels of people warning against some Grand Problem, and a CG-fest of hero bodies swarming Thanos and his minions. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Dec 2, 2017 2:26:12 GMT -5
It's been a while since I read the entire thing, but I distinctly remember Adam Warlock reiterating that the heroes didn't even have a chance of a chance of a chance to stop Thanos. It was just a hail mary attempt to distract him for a moment so Surfer could try and cop the gauntlet. Thanos being cocky and playing around the heroes for a minute or so is the only reason they didn't instantly get axed. Personally I think that is a glaring issue with the narrative. I don't see why Thanos would toy around with the people trying to stop them when he could get rid of them with a thought. Of course the story would be over once he puts on the glove I guess. Maybe that is how it should have ended. I think the set-up with the story is flawed. If the gauntlet is as powerful as it was supposed to be, then he should have been unbeatable. Even having just a few of the stones would have given him a long list of abilities that would have prevented anyone from reasonably challenging him. That Thanos would in some way divest himself of his power is really just a plot device so that the story doesn't end in two pages. In a lot of ways, I think the Infinity Gauntlet story was the culmination of the event stories of the 80s and 90s constantly trying to top one another in terms of sheer scale and scope. There was nowhere left to go except have the heroes fight God. Except the writers realized nobody can beat God, so God has to not be God for a couple of issues just to make it a fair fight. Personally, I think the MCU movies need to take the overpowered nature of the gauntlet into account and let the next two Avengers movies be about Thanos's attempt to acquire all the stones, rather than him actually succeeding. If he actually gets all the stones, I can't see how the movies can end in his defeat without some similar contrivance as in the comics. By the way, just to be clear -- I'm not a hater and I actually like the Infinity Gauntlet story, but mostly in a 13-year-old sort of way. If I picked up the story now for the first time, I think I'd probably roll my eyes at it. But there are things that you enjoy within their context, and for me this is definitely one of them. Well there is the issue. If you build up the gauntlet as this treasure trove of power once the proper sequence of events is coordinated, the audience is going to want to see that. I know I did when I read the story. Of course I was thinking "ok so what is the grand plan for stopping him if he apparently has this much power". I guess the only option is to have the character themselves defeat themselves or whatever through some character flaw. I remember vaguely in the relaunch of Wonder Woman by George Perez Aries gets all of this acquired power, and is about to basically end the story with his taking over. Except Diana tells him if he were to rule the universe and destroy everything he would get bored and be alone for eternity. Aries realizes this and forfeits his position. Don't know how the movie will do it, but I'm guessing Thanos screws himself in some way. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Dec 2, 2017 3:29:39 GMT -5
I do hope we get a scene along this lines of this in the upcoming film or the next. It's my favorite from Infinity Gauntlet.  |
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Post by String on Dec 2, 2017 14:53:37 GMT -5
Personally, I think the MCU movies need to take the overpowered nature of the gauntlet into account and let the next two Avengers movies be about Thanos's attempt to acquire all the stones, rather than him actually succeeding. If he actually gets all the stones, I can't see how the movies can end in his defeat without some similar contrivance as in the comics. ^This. There are a variety of ways that they can show how virtually unstoppable Thanos would become should he acquire all the stones without him actually doing so. A prophecy or some type of cosmic vision perhaps. This would help build the tension and suspense, both for the general audience and for the characters themselves. But it makes more sense to me to have these two films as a race to keep Thanos from fully assembling the stones instead. Thus, the Soul Gem, whose location is still unknown so far, may be a potential key in stopping him, either with it's properties and/or whoever ends up wielding it. The trailer looks amazing. This type of film, featuring multiple characters from a wide range of films dealing with a confluence of plot threads that have been laced throughout those same films, this is a major feat for Marvel Studios. Given their overall success and quality of film over this past decade, I would have to think that their work stands as one of the greatest feats in cinematic history. |
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