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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 6, 2018 9:32:30 GMT -5
  I've always gotten the feeling that his lack of prominence at Marvel has as much to do with poor marketing and politics as it does the peculiarities of the character. The first thing that always struck me about him, when he was reintroduced in 60's, was how he blurred the lines between hero and villain, which had to make him the first anti-hero in American mainstream comics up until that point. Granted Namor's more exotic, but he really served the function that Wolverine and the Punisher would serve in the 70's and beyond. I feel if this had been focused on an expanded a little better, particularly in the 70's and 80's, he might have been the vanguard for the late 70's anti-hero movement. Then again, given how exotic and powerful he is, maybe not. I suppose the main reason he never quite reached Spider-Man, Cap or Hulk stature at Marvel is the Pre-Marvel Age bias that's always existed. Sure, the original Human Torch and Sub-Mariner were the first Golden Age heroes, but since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had nothing to do with their origins, they've always suffered from this stigma I think. Second is the weird bias comic fans have always seemed to have against aquatic characters. This has always seemed odd to me seeing as how so many people love the ocean and how easily most fans seem to accept heroes from other planets, dimensions, etc. It's almost as if the aquatic environment is too alien for some, but not alien enough for others. So, should Sub-Mariner be more popular in your minds, or did he reach the limit of his potential as a character? Curious to read what you guys think. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 9:55:55 GMT -5
I suppose the main reason he never quite reached Spider-Man, Cap or Hulk stature at Marvel is the Pre-Marvel Age bias that's always existed. Sure, the original Human Torch and Sub-Mariner were the first Golden Age heroes, but since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had nothing to do with their origins, they've always suffered from this stigma I think. Second is the weird bias comic fans have always seemed to have against aquatic characters. This has always seemed odd to me seeing as how so many people love the ocean and how easily most fans seem to accept heroes from other planets, dimensions, etc. It's almost as if the aquatic environment is too alien for some, but not alien enough for others. Both excellent points. Namor was very popular at Timely back in the 40's. So what changed in the 60's? The race to the Moon. Suddenly we humans were flying into space & actually going to the Moon! The undersea world lost its appeal as we looked to the stars. This was reflected in our entertainment. I also think Namor was hurt by being looked at as Marvel's Aqumaman (even though he predates Aquaman). Basically another character that just "talks to fishes". And he wasn't as powerful as other Marvel heroes like the Hulk & Thor. He lost some of his uniqueness. He basically became a "watered down" (pun intended) version of other Marvel heroes. Strong? So was the Thing. A King? So was Black Panther. Could fly? So could Thor. Was a hot head? So was the Hulk. And so on. |
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 6, 2018 10:24:13 GMT -5
Fascinating topic.
I think we need to realize that some characters can start off on the "A List", but numerous factors, such as public interest, creators not knowing what to do with a character, particularly when times and reader tastes change (e.g. the dawn of the Silver Age's emphasis on science-created characters), or as you suggest, a bias among the creative and editorial staff. Green Arrow and DC's Sandman were once popular Golden Age characters, but it took a full decade after the start of the Silver Age for Green Arrow to adopt (rather, gifted) a personality so famous, few even know he was once just Batman with arrows. The Wesley Dodds Sandman--while never selling like Golden Age Sub-Mariner--was still a very popular character appearing in several titles, but that status all but disappeared in his 1960s/70s appearances, ultimately moved back toward the "mystery" character second tier during DC's brief interest in characters such as the revived Phantom Stranger and their version of The Shadow.
In other words, there's no guarantee for a character to be an "A-lister", or if he was at on time, maintain it. I do think your theory of aquatic environments not being "alien enough" is true for some fans, as they seem to think being a character who needs to live in water limits his value in a world where just about every human operates on land, leaving the random Nemo-esque character, undersea monsters/aliens, war or non-wartime submarine-based military antagonists sort of lacking the color and visual "pop" of earth-based or otherworldy creatures/tech.
In Namor's case, not only was he a water-based character, but his regal manor probably turned off Silver Age readers, since so many superhero characters were--by that time--presented as being less formal hero types, leaving little room (or patience) for a human-hating throwback. The same could be said of Thor, but his selling point was being able to mesh well with other heroes of the age, Avenger or not. The same could not be said of Namor, even after being made a founding member of the Defenders. There was just something about him that prevented the character from being one readers would want to follow in hero or (more importantly) personal life.
The fact he's survived for several decades, through endless ups and downs of the comic industry probably earns him more credit than he's getting here. Always being added to important points in Marvel history (e.g., Roy Thomas creating the Invaders, with Namor as one of the key members, serving as a retconned bridge to the Golden Age All-Winners Squad) places him on the "important" list of characters, but falls short of joining the Marvel Mount Rushmore of Spider-Man, Captain America and the Hulk.
Funny ting is, DC's Aquaman was--arguably--a "sillier", less developed character, but he's had a greater presence on the non-comic media stage than the generally respectable Namor.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 6, 2018 10:48:36 GMT -5
You have a couple of factors at play here. One, Namor hasn't had many "great" writers. His best material came in the 40s and 60s, then he would turn up from time to time, without much in the way of advancing the character. His solo series, with Byrne and all has moments; but, it could be kind of inconsistent. Plus, that ponytail looked stupid as hell. Making Namor look like some yuppie with a mid-life crisis wasn't the way to go. The second is that Namor was deliberately an abrasive character, which is hard to connect with, as a reader. He was great in small doses; but, rarely worked long term. Funnily enough, the more Aquaman was turned into a namor-like character, the less the audience liked it.
I always felt he worked better in Defenders and the FF, than in his own titles or the Avengers. The Defenders were misfits, the FF and he were in a rocky relationship that worked because of the personalities. I did think he was well used in Invaders, though he was rarely the focus.
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Post by sabongero on Jan 6, 2018 12:06:19 GMT -5
A little off topic, I just wanted to ask a question. Is Sub-Mariner, the first superhero to emerge or created from Timely Comics/Marvel Comics?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 6, 2018 12:11:04 GMT -5
A little off topic, I just wanted to ask a question. Is Sub-Mariner, the first superhero to emerge or created from Timely Comics/Marvel Comics? Sub-Mariner predates Martin Goodman publishing comics. Sub-Mariner first appeared in Motion Picture Funnies which was put together by Lloyd Jaquet's packaging house, Funnies, Inc., to be given away at movie theaters. The venture was a bust and Everett took Sub-Mariner to Timely. This has always made me wonder why Everett's estate never attempted to re-capture the copyright on Subby as he is a very clear example of a character that was not work for hire. |
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Post by shaxper on Jan 6, 2018 12:11:35 GMT -5
A little off topic, I just wanted to ask a question. Is Sub-Mariner, the first superhero to emerge or created from Timely Comics/Marvel Comics? He is the first of what we consider to be "Marvel characters," but his first appearances in Motion Picture Funnies Weekly were not published by Timely. Edit: looks like Slam beat me to it. |
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Post by hondobrode on Jan 6, 2018 12:22:48 GMT -5
I think Namor, or Roman spelled backwards, is just kind of hard for readers to like.
He's one dimensional in the sense that he's always one thing : angry.
Back in the Golden Age when the whole industry was pretty new, and every issue he was whoopin on Nazis, then sure kids bought his mag.
Also, back then, he was unique as an angry character, and kind of the first character to address humans polluting the seas, etc.
I like him as an FF family anti-hero and an Invader.
He also works because of the oddball nature of the Defenders.
Totally didn't fit in the mutant side, even though they're saying he's a mutant I guess.
I've wondered this same thing before. People just don't warm up to the guy. At least Aquaman has more than one emotion. I think that's what made the difference there.
DC pretty much keeps Aquaman going in some form. Marvel is inconsistent with Subby.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jan 6, 2018 12:50:16 GMT -5
In spite of being aware of the character for about 35 years now, Namor is still pretty much a cipher to me beyond his earliest Golden Age adventures. The Punisher is clear to me and probably anybody who's, well, ever seen a picture of the guy - he kills bad guys. Wolverine is an X-Man who fights ninjas. The Hulk - who, if you're looking for someone to pin an anti-hero label on in the 1960's should probably be your guy, is a sympathetic monster who wants to be left alone but circumstances force him into unenviable situations. To this day, I don't know what the Sub-Mariner has been up to since Johnny Storm located him (one issue before a better foil for The Fantastic Four debuted in FF 5) in that bowery other than try to marry Sue Storm from time to time and hang around with The Defenders. I couldn't even guess how a typical comic would read for the guy.
It's been said that a good guy is only as strong as his enemies and while there are a number of successful heroes without a powerful Rogues Gallery, I honestly have no idea what even a basic outline of a Sub-Mariner foe would look like. The Punisher is successful in spite of not having many recurring foes outside of Jigsaw, but I could certainly describe the type of enemy he faces on a day to day basis, for instance. With Namor, I get the impression that he's just an anti-social guy who doesn't like surface dwellers. Is there some malignant being in the Marvel Universe who only he can deal with, or is he just a pissed off guy who goes to the surface and pick fights with surface dwellers from time to time? Sure he's a Prince of Atlantis and that would be pretty fascinating in our world, but isn't a King/Queen/Prince a stepdown from being a superhero in the Marvel Universe in terms of excitement? Perhaps he spends his time hording off invasions from other areas of the sea and that could make for some very intriguing reading, but if this is what he does on a monthly basis, I have no idea how I'm supposed to know that.
Like The Punisher was to Spider-Man for several years, Namor was a recurring obstacle for The Fantastic Four. Unlike The Punisher, I'm not aware of anyone taking him further than that. Frank Miller made Frank Castle look interesting to readers of Daredevil and I believe Steve Grant and Mike Zeck followed up on that with his own series. I suspect Wolverine benefited from similar attention by way of Chris Claremont and John Byrne and later Frank Miller, but I'm unaware of Namor making that step up from supporting player/member of a team to interesting fella in his own right. Am I wrong? Has there been a really good Sub-Mariner run that people rave about that I've simply missed?
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Post by MDG on Jan 6, 2018 13:29:53 GMT -5
A little off topic, I just wanted to ask a question. Is Sub-Mariner, the first superhero to emerge or created from Timely Comics/Marvel Comics? Sub-Mariner predates Martin Goodman publishing comics. Sub-Mariner first appeared in Motion Picture Funnies which was put together by Lloyd Jaquet's packaging house, Funnies, Inc., to be given away at movie theaters. The venture was a bust and Everett took Sub-Mariner to Timely. This has always made me wonder why Everett's estate never attempted to re-capture the copyright on Subby as he is a very clear example of a character that was not work for hire. I'm sure you're right, but I expect Cei-U will find something to correct. I love Namor with the Reed-Sue-Namor dynamic, but otherwise, the undersea setting, as with Aquaman, can be a drag. It's also fun when he makes war on the surface world, but I think most readers have a surface world bias. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jan 6, 2018 13:32:10 GMT -5
A lot of people have hit on some good ideas I feel, with regard to him being one dimensional and perhaps viewed as Marvels Aquaman, even though Namor came first.
Some other things to consider perhaps. One, he relies on water for his strength. So you cannot have him venture too far from the ocean for too long. Also, his name. People know Sub Mariner but if you say Namor, there are a lot of people who don't know that name. I know it said it on the cover but just a thought. As a collector I have only read Invaders and some of his guest appearances in other titles. I have more interest in eventually trying to pick up some issues from his original run. He is more interesting to me than Aquaman by far.
I think ultimately it has to be the fact that he always be hatin on surface dwellers. I would also be interested to know if there is a great Subby run that really stands out because I don't think there is.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 6, 2018 13:56:21 GMT -5
Because when he was revived in the '60s, pretty much every trace of his previous personality was gone. He had the same visual look as Everett's character, but his attitude and (most importantly) sense of humor were (A) completely different and (B) completely gone respectively.
Stan's greatest strength as a writer was setting, placing characters in a version of New York that felt real.
The Sub-Mariner was a non New York based character who wasn't particularly relatable. He didn't have the day to day concerns of a Peter Parker or even a Bruce Banner - He was royalty and the things he dealt with were Oh No A Giant Sea Monster Is Attacking My Kingdom I Need To Throw a Temper Tantrum At It.
Same reason that the Inhumans never caught on. Same reason the Black Panther is so dog-gone (cat-gone?) tough to write. Stan Lee was bad at writing these types of characters so he didn't give later creators a functional template.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 14:32:32 GMT -5
Because when he was revived in the '60s, pretty much every trace of his previous personality was gone. He had the same visual look as Everett's character, but his attitude and (most importantly) sense of humor were (A) completely different and (B) completely gone respectively. Great points. There are many characters from the Golden Age that didn't translate well in the Silver Age. Namor is one. I would include others like Plastic Man & Capt Marvel as well. They never recaptured their original "charm" or "magic" in the 60's & later. Part of it was the lack of the original creators. Another part is certain characters just work better in a certain age & lose something when they are "modernized". |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 14:37:26 GMT -5
I think we need to realize that some characters can start off on the "A List", but numerous factors, such as public interest, creators not knowing what to do with a character, particularly when times and reader tastes change (e.g. the dawn of the Silver Age's emphasis on science-created characters), or as you suggest, a bias among the creative and editorial staff. In Namor's case, not only was he a water-based character, but his regal manor probably turned off Silver Age readers, since so many superhero characters were--by that time--presented as being less formal hero types, leaving little room (or patience) for a human-hating throwback. The fact he's survived for several decades, through endless ups and downs of the comic industry probably earns him more credit than he's getting here. Always being added to important points in Marvel history (e.g., Roy Thomas creating the Invaders, with Namor as one of the key members, serving as a retconned bridge to the Golden Age All-Winners Squad) places him on the "important" list of characters. Sorry I edited your post. I love all the points you made listed above. I love the character but totally understand why he never caught on with Silver Age readers & modern readers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 14:47:26 GMT -5
I would also be interested to know if there is a great Subby run that really stands out because I don't think there is. I always liked Byrne's Namor (1990) #1-25. |
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