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Post by brutalis on Sept 4, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -5
I liked Daredevil #6-11 with Wally Wood and Bob Powell art, the new all red costume debuted, there was a newspaper headlines theme to a couple of covers, the Ani-Men, Stilt Man, Sub-Mariner and Mr. Fear... mostly just the great art remains in memory. Then #12-19 was by John Romita with Ka-Zar and Spider-Man appearing. The Gene Colan era started with The Owl as a villain in #20. I left off somewhere in the #30s in my collecting (then when I bought #157 and saw Colan I thought maybe he'd been doing it for all that time). If I could read a run now (I started when Miller was the regular artist, #162-163 being the first I bought new)... I'd probably go for the ones with the Black Widow co-billed. From the mid #30s to #138 are all a complete mystery to me.This piqued my curiosity. I wonder how the issues were portrayed, or better yet, what type of stories were written. Were they more like soap opera style from issue to issue. That would make it interesting for a while. The issues from 30-49 are your typical Stan Lee soap opera styling, same as he did for Spider-Man. Roy Thomas comes on with issue 50 to 71 and readily follows the Lee concepts. Gerry Conway comes aboard with #72 through 98 utilizing the standard Marvel and Lee mode. Colan is the primary artist holding the whole shebang together until issue 100, which means superb artwork. Gerber takes on writing with #99 finishing out the Widow teaming up in the San Francisco era and returning the Mani in Red to solo status. Through out this you get art from Don Heck, Bob Brown and some Colan issues sprinkled in between. All of this is fairly mediocre for the most part but there are issues here and there which do better. Each reader's mileage will vary depending on your tastes.
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Post by sabongero on Sept 19, 2019 17:53:28 GMT -5
This piqued my curiosity. I wonder how the issues were portrayed, or better yet, what type of stories were written. Were they more like soap opera style from issue to issue. That would make it interesting for a while. The issues from 30-49 are your typical Stan Lee soap opera styling, same as he did for Spider-Man. Roy Thomas comes on with issue 50 to 71 and readily follows the Lee concepts. Gerry Conway comes aboard with #72 through 98 utilizing the standard Marvel and Lee mode. Colan is the primary artist holding the whole shebang together until issue 100, which means superb artwork. Gerber takes on writing with #99 finishing out the Widow teaming up in the San Francisco era and returning the Mani in Red to solo status. Through out this you get art from Don Heck, Bob Brown and some Colan issues sprinkled in between. All of this is fairly mediocre for the most part but there are issues here and there which do better. Each reader's mileage will vary depending on your tastes. The Black Wide & Daredevil tandem, was it very entertaining? Also in terms of relationships, did Matt Murdock have any other women around this time while he was in a relationship with Black Widow, and was there closure to their relationship ?
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 19, 2019 21:27:10 GMT -5
I Started with the Gene Colan DD, which I still love, especially inked by Syd Shores and Tom Palmer. Personal favorite is issues 57 & 58. I also enjoyed the Ann Nocenti, Romita Jr run a lot.
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Post by berkley on Sept 19, 2019 21:30:57 GMT -5
I like all the early stuff before the Miller run - in fact DD was always a favourite character of mine when I was a kid, much more than Spider-Man, for example. The Wood and then the Colan artwork is fantastic and I also like Romita's short run - the Ka-Zar story made a big impression on me when I read it in a Giant-Size reprint around 1970, I believe.
I think the artwork was really the biggest problem during the period between Colan's departure and Miller's arrival. Very inconsistent and even when they found a steady artist like Bob Brown, the results were pretty mediocre, to my eyes (no disrespect to Brown, from whom I've seen much better work elsewhere).
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 20, 2019 8:06:38 GMT -5
I agree Berkley. After Colan left, DD was lackluster. Marvel (Stan?, Roy?) knew that too, why else would they allow an artist without a track record, who was untested as a writer, take over the book.
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Post by sabongero on Sept 20, 2019 11:18:14 GMT -5
I Started with the Gene Colan DD, which I still love, especially inked by Syd Shores and Tom Palmer. Personal favorite is issues 57 & 58. I also enjoyed the Ann Nocenti, Romita Jr run a lot. Ann Nocenti wasn't she the editor of New Mutants? What did you think of her run? Are her stories full of commentaries on society's ills of the time when she was writing Daredevil?
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 20, 2019 17:55:59 GMT -5
I don't recall her run on DD being more socially aware than other comics.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 23, 2019 8:01:44 GMT -5
The issues from 30-49 are your typical Stan Lee soap opera styling, same as he did for Spider-Man. Roy Thomas comes on with issue 50 to 71 and readily follows the Lee concepts. Gerry Conway comes aboard with #72 through 98 utilizing the standard Marvel and Lee mode. Colan is the primary artist holding the whole shebang together until issue 100, which means superb artwork. Gerber takes on writing with #99 finishing out the Widow teaming up in the San Francisco era and returning the Mani in Red to solo status. Through out this you get art from Don Heck, Bob Brown and some Colan issues sprinkled in between. All of this is fairly mediocre for the most part but there are issues here and there which do better. Each reader's mileage will vary depending on your tastes. The Black Wide & Daredevil tandem, was it very entertaining? Also in terms of relationships, did Matt Murdock have any other women around this time while he was in a relationship with Black Widow, and was there closure to their relationship ? Somewhat. They played their relationship as dysfunctional for the most part. The made a great partnership but both were extremely stubborn, temperamental and prone to arguing and flying off the handle emotionally. Which made for a fiery roller-coaster of soap opera moments and eventually lead to their separation. Considering the comings and goings and flirtations of Matt with Moondragon and Natasha with Hawkeye and their constant break-ups I was surprised they actually managed to stay together for very long. The closure was Natasha choosing to walk away from Matt for fear of being considered nothing more than a "sidekick" and not a full partner and she accepted Avengers membership rather than remain DD's partner.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 23, 2019 17:07:54 GMT -5
I don't recall her run on DD being more socially aware than other comics. Not sure about DD (I only read a couple of her issues) but she did a Web of Spider-Man annual about animal rights.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 23, 2019 19:05:25 GMT -5
Gene Colan had a real sense of humor. So, from the moment he took over from John Romita, the book essentially became a SITCOM. Really crazy, stupd stuff like "The Hop-Frog", and "Mike Murdock", actually work better if you look at that entire run that way. What's crazy, is that when Gene took over from Romita, it was announced as being "temporary", while Romita worked on the ASM ANNUAL #3 (which Don Heck wound up doing the pencils for anyway, over Romita's layouts). When Roy Thomas got on the book... well... HE actually wanted to write. And you can see the massive change in tone right there. All the humor went right out the window, since Roy was supplying the plots, instead of Gene. By the way... check out the short comedy back-up in DD ANNUAL #1, in which we see an alleged late-night "plotting session" between Gene & his editor. What most fans never realized was... the portrayal of their working relationship in that story... was FAR MORE ACCURATE than it seemed. Now, when Gerry Conway took over... let's just say he didn't have Roy Thomas' sense of humor. (Yes, I'm making a joke. At Thomas' expense. Heh.) I suppose the best thing about Conway's run was that after going thru multiple inkers, some better or worse than others, Gene was finally re-treamed with Tom Palmer, with whom he first worked on DR. STRANGE. They remain one of the best penciller-inker teams in comics history, I feel. Steve Gerber, I understand, said in an interview, that when he started writing at Marvel, he had (his words) "NO IDEA" what he was doing. I came to love Gerber's work... but, BOY, you can see him grow as a writer over the course of time. Bob Brown-- unfortunately-- like far too many artists who worked at Marvel-- tended to get WAY better inkers when he was at DC. So, YEAH, his stuff did look better elsewhere. My own personal favorite inkers for him at Marvel include Sal Buscema (who did DD #107, the one that guest-starred Captain Mar-Vell), Paul Gulacy (who did #108-- funny enough, the first DD issue I bought off the rack at my local drug store), and Dave Cockrum ( AVENGERS #126, the issue with Klaw & Solarr, I think). A funny bit of trivia I noticed a few years ago. BOTH Daredevil and The Black Widow FIRST got their "cable" devices with which they could swing over the city, in the SAME month-- DD in his own book, BW in TALES OF SUSPENSE with Iron Man & Hawkeye. Isn't that wild, considering they later became professional partners and romantic lovers? By the way... I've long felt that Steve Gerber was the ONLY writer at Marvel, other than Jim Starlin, who ever-- EVER-- wrote Moondragon sympathetically. As I said, I came in with DD #108, the issue where Matt went back to NYC, Natasha stayed behind, and en route, Heather gave Matt the brush-off. That issue, incidentally, has always struck me as the very first "BACK TO BASICS" move of any long-running Marvel series that had grown far from its roots, and a writer decided to take things back to the way they were. MANY other books followed this path over the years (famously John Byrne's F.F. run), but I can't recall anyone doing it before Gerber on DD. I guess I'll always consider DD #108-up as "my" run on the book, as those where the ones I bought as they came out. I could say a lot more-- especially about Marv Wolfman's run... maybe later.
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Post by berkley on Sept 24, 2019 2:07:44 GMT -5
Some very interesting ideas there, profh0011: I always assumed that Colan's change in style was down to a combination of change in inkers (I think Giacoia left around the same time?) and a gradual evolution of his style, but you've got me thinking. I admit that I've never sat down and read the whole series through from start to finish (I mean up to Colan's departure, or the middle of Miller's run, when I lost track of pretty much everything Marvel), maybe it would look that way to me too, after such an exercise.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 26, 2019 21:45:05 GMT -5
What I continue to find ironic... A couple months after "Born Again", I got totally and forever FED up with DAREDEVIL. It felt like, I cold put up with Miller tearing long-running characters to pieces before my eyes... but not anybody else. So I just said to HELL with it, stopped reading, and have never looked back since.
Quite some years later, when the 1st DD Materworks book came out... it became one of my favorite Masterworks books ever, and I read it cover-to-cover 3 times. Bill Everett's lone issue REMAINS a real classic. And Wally Wood's short run became one of my FAVORITES, ever, of the series. (Joe Orlando's 3 disastrous issues I rank among the worst comics Marvel published in all of the 1960s. Good grief.) It's just crazy that I never read most of these until long after I quit reading the series in general.
Quite a few years later... when I got the 2nd DD Masterworks book... good lord. I've never been so disappointed in a short run in my life... especially considering how much I'd loved John Romita's stuff since the late 60s on. He always seems to say he would have preferred staying on DAREDEVIL instead of switching over to SPIDER-MAN... but I rank his DD run as the WORST stuff I have ever seen from him. Especially his first 3 issues. Over at one of my blogs, I did a 4-page article detailing the early history of the series, and when I got to "origin of Ka-Zar" story, I concluded that it was the sad result of a relay-race kind of situation, where one person had an idea, another one made some suggestions, another one expanded on it, another one made drastic changes, and then another one came in and put the final kibosh on it. I counted no less than 5 different writers involved.
Romita's DD run got way better once Matt returned to New York.
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 26, 2019 21:52:28 GMT -5
You just reminded me, I still have to read that part of the run. I have everything up to #74 (mostly reprints but a few originals), but then, 82, 86, 99-102, and then, from #105-up. I obvously need to get at least ESSENTIAL DD Vol.4, but there's only 2 issues in Vol.5 I'd need, and I'd hate to buy a whole book like that for 2 missing episodes.
I really love the ESSENTIAL books, as they're a really cheap way to get a PILE of consecutive issues. When both Marvel & DC finally started doing reprint collections like these, I remember my reaction wasn't so much "What a GREAT idea!" as... "What the HELL took them so long?"
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Post by berkley on Sept 26, 2019 23:08:25 GMT -5
You just reminded me, I still have to read that part of the run. I have everything up to #74 (mostly reprints but a few originals), but then, 82, 86, 99-102, and then, from #105-up. I obvously need to get at least ESSENTIAL DD Vol.4, but there's only 2 issues in Vol.5 I'd need, and I'd hate to buy a whole book like that for 2 missing episodes.
I really love the ESSENTIAL books, as they're a really cheap way to get a PILE of consecutive issues. When both Marvel & DC finally started doing reprint collections like these, I remember my reaction wasn't so much "What a GREAT idea!" as... "What the HELL took them so long?"
The Essentials are the black and white reprints, right? I prefer them over the badly coloured Masterworks but would still prefer something in colour - just done better, i.e. closer to the original look, than the Masterworks.
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Post by electricmastro on Sept 28, 2019 0:03:12 GMT -5
The one where Daredevil goes up against Hitler is definitely a highlight.
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