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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 25, 2018 9:06:51 GMT -5
Also I couldn't remember where this page was in time but I did want to include it.. The storytelling is spot on here. The intent, emotions, physical location and POV character are completely clear, even though the latter change. My usual complaint with Adams' storytelling is that you have to read the captions closely to find out what's going on, but here we have 7 words in 8 panels and everything is crystal. Neal Adams absolutely had the chops, and when he was focusing on storytelling he was just great. ( Which means that he wasn't always focusing...) It's possible he was beginning to be pulled away to advertising but most of the non- design heavy pages were good storytelling.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2018 9:46:40 GMT -5
So the argument is basically 'sometimes Neal Adams drew stuff I didn't like, therefore he sucks'? I think I'll pass on the rest of this 'lets piss on Neal Adams' thread. So critiquing art and exploring whether its influence is positive or negative is "pissing" on someone. Lighten up.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2018 9:49:07 GMT -5
Gene Colan was doing the same thing with panel layout in Dr. Strange. Steranko did it as well. But let's criticize experimentation if it occasional isn't perfectly executed. His influence gave us Frank Brunner, Bill Sienkiewicz, Mike Kaluta, Jim Starlin and may others. The premise of this thread isn't supported by history. What's next? How bad Kirby was for comics?Why would that thread be bad? Whether it's in the affirmative or the negative how is discussion of the artform and the influence of the creators, positive or negative, a bad thing? It's not like anyone is walking up to Neal or Jack and shitting on their sneakers.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2018 9:58:01 GMT -5
Gene Colan was doing the same thing with panel layout in Dr. Strange. Steranko did it as well. But let's criticize experimentation if it occasional isn't perfectly executed. His influence gave us Frank Brunner, Bill Sienkiewicz, Mike Kaluta, Jim Starlin and may others. The premise of this thread isn't supported by history. What's next? How bad Kirby was for comics?Why would that thread be bad? Whether it's in the affirmative or the negative how is discussion of the artform and the influence of the creators, positive or negative, a bad thing? It's not like anyone is walking up to Neal or Jack and shitting on their sneakers. I changed that line in my original post. The problem i have is not to discuss Adam's influence, good and bad, it's that this thread says it was MOSTLY bad. That is his overall impact was bad for comics. I strongly disagree.
And shouldn't this whole thread just be part of the "There I said it!" thread?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2018 10:35:47 GMT -5
Why would that thread be bad? Whether it's in the affirmative or the negative how is discussion of the artform and the influence of the creators, positive or negative, a bad thing? It's not like anyone is walking up to Neal or Jack and shitting on their sneakers. I changed that line in my original post. The problem i have is not to discuss Adam's influence, good and bad, it's that this thread says it was MOSTLY bad. That is his overall impact was bad for comics. I strongly disagree.
And shouldn't this whole thread just be part of the "There I said it!" thread?
So rebut the thesis. You disagree. That means you can have a discussion regarding the merits of both sides. Can't the same be said of most threads? Reptisaurus seems to think this is worthy of deeper analysis than a throwaway remark in that thread.
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Post by rberman on Jun 25, 2018 10:57:09 GMT -5
In an interview with Amazing Heroes, Gil Kane touched on Adams' influence. Brief comments about Adams are on pgs. 24 & 28, but the entire piece is worth reading. Kane also mentions the prevalence of "advertising techniques" in comics - he doesn't attribute it to Adams, but no doubt Adams was a driving force behind that. It ties in well with your point about "the kinds-of-stories-that-Neal-Adams-can-tell became over-represented in American superhero comics." You can read it here. Wow! What an interesting interview that was. It was a mix of wonderful historical insights and "old man yells at cloud" myopia. To wit: * Kane complained that the best comic book creators leave the field because they feel stifled by its limitations, when really they leave because they can earn more money to feed their families working in related endeavors that are less of a niche market. A few years after this 1990 interview we see a whole wave of authors returning to work in comic books (Peter David, Neil Gaiman, Joss Whedon, J. Michael Straczynski, etc.) from the more lucrative pastures of Hollywood because they found comic books to be less constraining for the stories they wanted to tell. * Kane's assessment that Bill Sienkiewicz was the golden boy of 1990 seems anachronistic. 1984, OK. But a lot happened between those two years. * Kane feels that comic books have lost a sense of cosmic grandeur and are now about mundane battles against common hooligans. That doesn't do justice to the breadth of topic in any era of comics. Do you really want "A Contract with God" or "The Elektra Saga" to be about interstellar battles? Hasn't Spider-Man always worked best slinging through the canyons of Manhattan, not fighting Skrulls in outer space? There are lots of different kinds of comics, and lots of different styles applied to each kind of comic, and saying "You can't use that style of art on that genre of story" seems like one of the most un-artistic things I can imagine. It would be like saying "Historical events can only be related in acoustic ballads, never in rock songs." And then a new generation of artists comes along and asks, "Who made that rule? God?" And that's how the world of art advances, not by idolizing and ossifying the heroes of yesteryear, who never did such a thing themselves.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 25, 2018 11:00:41 GMT -5
Why would that thread be bad? Whether it's in the affirmative or the negative how is discussion of the artform and the influence of the creators, positive or negative, a bad thing? It's not like anyone is walking up to Neal or Jack and shitting on their sneakers. I changed that line in my original post. The problem i have is not to discuss Adam's influence, good and bad, it's that this thread says it was MOSTLY bad. That is his overall impact was bad for comics. I strongly disagree.
And shouldn't this whole thread just be part of the "There I said it!" thread?
There's nothing wrong with a provocative thread title. It worked in this case to spark discussion. By having its own thread , it can be discussed entirely before the topic is changed.
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Post by rberman on Jun 25, 2018 11:06:00 GMT -5
I changed that line in my original post. The problem i have is not to discuss Adam's influence, good and bad, it's that this thread says it was MOSTLY bad. That is his overall impact was bad for comics. I strongly disagree.
And shouldn't this whole thread just be part of the "There I said it!" thread?
There's nothing wrong with a provocative thread title. It worked in this case to spark discussion. By having its own thread , it can be discussed entirely before the topic is changed. Clickbait for the win! I don't mind the provocative title though. A contrarian analysis can be fun at least as as Devil's advocate to spur discussion, and probably has some grain of truth in it worth uncovering in its own right.
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Post by rberman on Jun 25, 2018 11:12:20 GMT -5
A year or so ago, my wife convinced me to watch "The Minority Report." My curiousity about the concept was stronger than my dislike of Tom Cruise, so I watched it, and noticed that a lot of the movie seemd to have high-contrast. It occurred to me that a lot of Adams' work - at least his 60s and early 70s stuff - has a similar look. I know Adams often worked from photos he took, so I wonder if he deliberately took high-contrast photos to increase dramatic lighting, tension, and mood. Yes, when I think of Neal Adams, I think of Batman with a rim of yellow across part of his body indicating a distant light source.
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Post by rberman on Jun 25, 2018 11:22:19 GMT -5
So there are two Neal Adamsses. First, there's the crazy experimental design based Neal Adams who whips out a comics page comprised of five septagonal panels surrounding a half oval that's larger on one end with a giant figure of R'as Ah Ghu; overlayed on top of the whole shebang. Then there's the relatively placid "I told Stan I wouldn't scare the kiddies" restrained Neal Adams who works (mostly) within traditional square grids. I'm going to complain about the former for a minute. You can blame some of the problems with this page on the coloring, but there's no denying that the character continuity between the first, second, and third panels is really weak, which this makes the whole page hard to follow. There's SOME effort in transitioning focus between lead characters, (the energy lines and the floating legs) but the rapid-fire switching of three POV characters in three panels is jarring. Just taken as a four panel grid decontextualized from the larger comic book, I see your concern. I'd want to know more about the entire issue for context, though. Ever since Battleship Potemkin, artists have used abrupt cross-cutting as a way of building tension through multiple scenes advancing in parallel. If each of those scenes is set up properly in advance, then a four panel sequence like this could be completely legitimate; the reader already knows the plot threads for each individual character and can parse this page very easily. But if the Mephisto panel (for instance) just appeared out of the blue in a story about Sif fighting a Frost Giant or something, then it would indeed be weird. So, what was the context of this page within the original comic book? Was it set up?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2018 12:23:33 GMT -5
Some general caveats and a note on style: ...... My discussion here concerns only Adams' Marvel and DC comic book (not magazine) work from the '60s and '70s. Two reasons: (A) That period is by far the most influential and most discussed period of Adams career, and (B) That period is all that I'm familiar with. Toyboy and Ms. Mystic could (for all I know) be 1,000% improvements on Adams' Silver and Bronze age work. ...... Not even close....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 12:36:23 GMT -5
Big Neal Adams fan but I do see how his style of art led to the Image guys style later. Great cover artist. Interiors - pretty pictures. Didn't always do the job of storytelling.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2018 12:43:56 GMT -5
I just want to weigh in, briefly (yeah, right!). I grew up with Adams and his influence; well, his influence more at DC, in the look of Batman. In many ways, I preferred his work to what I would see at Marvel, as it had a power and dynamism, and the art was interesting to look at. However, I do think he was guilty of style over substance in his stories. Whether that is a result of over-indulgence or trying to prop up what he felt was a weak sctript could be open for debate. Like most artists, he had his favorite tropes. His storytelling could be bad. Quite frankly, thentire Continuity line was a mess, both in writing and much in art. The coloring in them always struck me as really weird and the pages were often a violent mess. In that, I think he had a negative influence on some of the younger artists who followed and got lazy. However, much of that continuity work was Adams reworking pages drawn by assistants or overtly inking other artists work (usually young artists). I personally feel he destroyed Esteban Maroto's work, with his Zero Patrol reworking of Maroto's classic Cinco Por Infinito.
All of that said, there is a ton of great Neal Adams work out there, with some great pieces beyond the superhero genre. As said, he was great at mystery/horror and he also did some fine western work. He could do urban crime adventure. I do think he was better when focused on comics, in his own work, rather than flitting in and out with advertising work and producing comics as a side (which is one of the problems with Continuity, as a publisher).
I do think you could level some of the same criticisms to Steranko, where the image was often more important to the story. Colan I would say less so, as he brought a cinematic touch to his work, but still kept it, generally, in service to the story.
In regards to Kane's interview, I've read several with him. It's no surprise he was Chaykin's mentor. He is an opinionated guy; but, that what also made him one of the innovators, as he held the work to a higher standard than many of his contemporaries. He could be quite curmudgeonly, though. I do think he is write that many left the field for greener pastures. The examples of Gaiman, Whedon and Straczynski, though, don't quite work in the same context as Peter David, nor of the writers who left, permanently. Whedon and Straczynski were fans who came into comics to dabble in something they loved; but, it was not their main priority. Gaiman moved into the prose world and only dabbled in the odd comic piece, when time allowed. Comics became secondary when his literary career took off. Peter David was someone who kept a firm hand in both areas. However, he was mostly doing licensed work in the book world, as his own projects were never the sellers that his Star Trek or Marvel books were. He is one of those writers who is better at playing in someone else's sandbox than building his own. Many writers and artists left permanently, as there was more money in advertising, animation, tv, film, etc.. Some did drop back buy, especially when invited or when retired from their higher paying gigs. Agesim also played heavily into that, as many were pushed aside for younger creators and moved on to replace and build income.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jun 25, 2018 13:23:53 GMT -5
I couldn't follow Neal Adams or Gene Colan comics as a little kid. I think it's great though to have all kinds of variety in comics including these kinds of dynamic realism types of books for older readers. I love them now, but everything doesn't have to be like them, nor everything cartoony, nor everything very straight forward. As for the bad influence... I've always thought more in terms of the adult stories with the heavy real world elements by Denny O'Neil and Gerry Conway... drugs, racism, death... in their way they were making an honest attempt to communicate about their concerns with readers, but there was always something just a bit uncomfortable about the fit in a Green Lantern/Green Arrow or Spider-Man comic book, even with gorgeous illustration (which by the way Stan Drake was pioneering in the newspaper strips before Mr. Adams came into that same area and then on to the comic books). I think however that Batman story by Denny O'Neil, 'There Is No Hope In Crime Alley', is one of the very best superhero comic stories I've ever read. Bad influence? Anything can be. I got to talk to Mr. O'Neil for almost an hour once in the '80s just before he left Marvel and asked him about the fit of adult content with superhero comics. This might not apply to more adult styles of art, but he did say looking back at his younger more earnest self it may have been a mistake, at least in terms of how it led some others to maybe become too serious with the super characters. I don't know if Gerry Conway would feel that way about the deaths of Gwen Stacy and the Green Goblin or the drug issues in Spider-Man back around the same time. Gil Kane and Neal Adams can be seen in later artists like Mike Grell and John Byrne, so if you don't like their work... I do! I can't say Mr. Adams was bad either because he had a lot to do with past creators getting some redress and recognition! I think his X-men and Avengers mini-runs with Roy Thomas stories were the best though, and the Detective Comics that weren't trying to be important or 'deal with issues'. I'm sure that as the readership was mainly still around the 12 year old age range they were not commercially successful enough to go on long or produce a lot of similar comics for quite awhile, until the age range moved up and the specialty shops bit by bit became the main market. No sacred cows here though, rail away. You are free to like different kinds of comics! I think Beanworld is one of the all-time best, and I still like Neal Adams, so there!
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Post by Duragizer on Jun 25, 2018 13:37:39 GMT -5
So, Neal Adams is to drawing what Alan Moore is to writing?
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