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Post by tarkintino on Jun 27, 2018 15:19:52 GMT -5
So too in comic books or any other art form. The difference between "bad art" and "amazing envelope pushing art" is often not evident at the time, because both fail to follow the established conventions of "good art" for their day. Thus Bach and Van Gogh are far more celebrated today than during their lifetimes. And the opinions of established artists about their peers, while of some value, are hardly the end of the story, because those artists are as enmeshed in the old order as readers are. The difference here is that Adams was never considered "bad art" at the time he made his mark in comics. Anyone claiming "bad art" is pushing a losing revisionist agenda supported by so few that it does not matter not to history made at the height of Adams' creativity, or now. I cannot recall a reader or critic who had to "appreciate" Adams' work after the fact (meaning years later), because his genius was evident right out of the gates. I've read one letters page after another from DC, Warren and Marvel where readers could not stop praising Adams, and comparing his work to artists readers considered inferior. He happens to be one of those talents that never had to "live to see his work appreciated" long after the heart of his career was over.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 29, 2018 0:10:39 GMT -5
Also, the conventions of narrative flow are enculturated. What one generation finds smooth narrative may be disjointed to an older generation and pedantic to a younger generation. A multi-threaded movie like Nashville, The Godfather Part II, or even The Empire Strikes Back never would have been made in the 1930s, when people expected cinema to follow a single story in chronological order. Later films like the "backwards" Irreversible or the "backwards and forwards meeting in the middle" Memento or the Ourobouros structure of After the Rain or the in-and-out-of-dreamworld Mullholland Drive can be daunting even to modern moviegoers and would have been unintelligible fifty years ago. But those who are raised on a diet of this sort of narrative come to recongize its tropes and can decode them with practice. So too in comic books or any other art form. The difference between "bad art" and "amazing envelope pushing art" is often not evident at the time, because both fail to follow the established conventions of "good art" for their day. Thus Bach and Van Gogh are far more celebrated today than during their lifetimes. And the opinions of established artists about their peers, while of some value, are hardly the end of the story, because those artists are as enmeshed in the old order as readers are. Absolutely true, but in the case of comic storytelling McCloud really codified the rules for what works and what doesn't and there hasn't been much of a challenge to that. And, I mean, did you see the Batman/Creeper page I posted? That's a narrative cluster$%^, and there is no time, no dimension, no possible reality where that is not a narrative cluster$%^. Sometimes bad is just bad.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 29, 2018 0:16:51 GMT -5
Have you read his Batman story, Night of the Reaper? Very powerful, effective storytelling. Yeah, probably... I read all the Rutland stories 5-6 years ago but don't remember anything about this story in particular so there's a chance I just missed it. I owned that comic but I sold it with most of my Batman stuff. I honestly didn't read any Batman (except Brave and the Bold, of course!) when researching this just because I don't have easy access. I'll try to see if one of my friends has a copy or maybe interlibrary loan a Tpb or hardcover. I think all the Adams Batman has been reprinted multiple times.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 29, 2018 2:13:38 GMT -5
I honestly didn't read any Batman (except Brave and the Bold, of course!) when researching this just because I don't have easy access. Then by your own statement, you're operating from a limited, evidence-challenged position not relying on sufficient volumes of work to reach any sort of fact-based conclusion, particularly when dealing with one of the industry's undisputed masters. For good reason.
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Post by rberman on Jun 29, 2018 7:48:11 GMT -5
Also, the conventions of narrative flow are enculturated. What one generation finds smooth narrative may be disjointed to an older generation and pedantic to a younger generation. A multi-threaded movie like Nashville, The Godfather Part II, or even The Empire Strikes Back never would have been made in the 1930s, when people expected cinema to follow a single story in chronological order. Later films like the "backwards" Irreversible or the "backwards and forwards meeting in the middle" Memento or the Ourobouros structure of After the Rain or the in-and-out-of-dreamworld Mullholland Drive can be daunting even to modern moviegoers and would have been unintelligible fifty years ago. But those who are raised on a diet of this sort of narrative come to recongize its tropes and can decode them with practice. So too in comic books or any other art form. The difference between "bad art" and "amazing envelope pushing art" is often not evident at the time, because both fail to follow the established conventions of "good art" for their day. Thus Bach and Van Gogh are far more celebrated today than during their lifetimes. And the opinions of established artists about their peers, while of some value, are hardly the end of the story, because those artists are as enmeshed in the old order as readers are. Absolutely true, but in the case of comic storytelling McCloud really codified the rules for what works and what doesn't and there hasn't been much of a challenge to that. And, I mean, did you see the Batman/Creeper page I posted? That's a narrative cluster$%^, and there is no time, no dimension, no possible reality where that is not a narrative cluster$%^. Sometimes bad is just bad. I did not scrutinize that page, and I wouldn't try to parse it outside of the context of the work in which it appeared, but I will take your word that it's a mess. There is certainly such a thing as a failed experiment, whether in page layout or any other aspect of design and execution. McCloud's work is descriptive rather than prescriptive. The very nature of art makes it resistant to prescription, and indeed many artists throughout history are contrarians who took attempted prescription as a challenge. "Who says your eyes have to be on opposite sides of your face?" (Picasso) "Who says music consists of sounds people were making on purpose?" (Pierre Schaeffer) "Who says that a performance consists of the sounds of the people on the stage?" (John Cage) "Who says that the USA's founding fathers ought to be portrayed on-stage by Caucasians?" (Lin-Manuel Miranda) Etc.
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