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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 18, 2018 12:44:55 GMT -5
Figure sitting next to the Howard Hughes doppelganger looks like Bowery Namor before he was shaved by Johnny Storm. might also bea reference to the older Hughes, when he totally lost it, with long hair and fingernails, and jars of urine.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 18, 2018 13:26:11 GMT -5
Figure sitting next to the Howard Hughes doppelganger looks like Bowery Namor before he was shaved by Johnny Storm. might also bea reference to the older Hughes, when he totally lost it, with long hair and fingernails, and jars of urine. Definitely a possibility.
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Post by rberman on Jul 19, 2018 5:42:34 GMT -5
Smax #1 “Isn’t It Good to Be Lost In the Wood” (October 2003)
Cover Tags: “Torn Between Two Worlds!” and “Also Starring Toybox!”
The Story: Back at the end of Top 10, Jaafs “Smax” Macksun had received news of his uncle’s death, while his cop partner Robyn “Toybox” Slinger had sustained a broken leg during an arrest-turned-battle. So they both take a leave of absence from the police business and go on a field trip to Smax’s home dimension, which turns out to be a medieval Fantasyland. First, Robyn drops by Jeff’s trailer out in the country. It’s apparently bigger on the inside than the outside. Look at the difference in the exterior and interior width: Back in Top 10, when we saw Jeff’s home, a voice was singing medieval-themed lyrics. I assumed at the time that this was Jeff’s radio or CD player, booming out some fantasy-themed heavy metal along the lines of Led Zeppelin. Nope, turns out it’s a singing Claymore, so the music probably sounds like flutes and lutes, or just plain acapella. Robyn and Jeff take a taxi into Neopolis, then a teleporter to his home dimension. After dropping their luggage at Ye Olde Accursed Tavern, Robyn’s broken leg is healed by a overly friendly elf named Aldric. Time to visit Jeff’s family next; his aunt and uncle are dwarves, but his twin sister Rexa is as tall and blue and warrior-like as he is. Jeff pretends (for reasons later to be disclosed) that Robyn is his wife. This enrages Robyn, who has made a big deal out of her lack of attraction to Jeff, which is sincere, not just a “she protesteth too much” thing. She stalks back to the inn for the night. End of chapter! Easter Eggs: The brief Neopolis part of the trip gives one more opportunity for sci-fi cameos, from a billboard of Cypher (from The Matrix) asking, “Why didn’t I take the blue pill?” to a Tron lightcycle on the road to a Myst-themed sign asking you to “Bring me the blue pages.” There’s a pumpkin-headed guy, and Rorschach, and a Roger Dean-style poster for “Yes World,” and one of the ESPers from Akira and “To Infinity and Beyond!” (from Toy Story) and “Babel Fish for Sale” (from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) and Hammerhead and Walrus Man from the Star Wars Cantina and Chairface Chippendale from The Tick… you get the idea. Immediately inside the fantasy world, there’s a rainbow bridge and a leprechaun with a pot of gold. Jean Grey’s Phoenix raptor rises into the sky in the distance, and a spiral path may be the beginning of the Yellow Brick Road. There’s a quartet of rabbits, with Lewis Carroll’s White Rabbit getting mugged by Beatrix Potter’s Peter Rabbit, Walt Disney’s Oswald the Rabbit (Mickey Mouse’s processor), and some other pink anime-looking rabbit. The Accursed Tavern has a large tree fallen across its roof and a Pet Cemetery beside it, plus the Snow White’s witchy stepmother’s Magic Mirror hanging on Robyn’s bedroom wall. A Griffindor (sic) pennant hangs in the dining room, one of four Harry Potter references that I caught throughout the series. Robyn is repulsed by a proffered meal which includes not only roast babies but also a unicorn, the goose that laid the golden eggs, and a mermaid. Further down the road are a couple of tall-hair troll dolls, a pint-sized Green Goblin, and Cinderella’s pumpkin carriage, making its first of three appearances. A wino Mad Hatter imbibes a bottle marked “Drink Me.” Jeff has a dwarven uncle named Durnik, which was the name of the loyal smith companion in David Eddings’ well-regarded 80s fantasy series The Belgariad. This society uses patronymics, so that Jaafs Macksun is the son of Mack, while his aunt is MInka Lugsdotter (Lug’s daughter). The only country in our world which still uses patronymics is Iceland, as seen for instance in the name of Icelandic musical artist Björk Guðmundsdóttir. Inside the dwarven gingerbread house, the chair backs are made of broken Lik-M-Ade sticks, those hard pieces of white candy that you could dip into flavored sugar packets. My Two Cents: Remember that time that the Atom shrank so small that he left the world of super-heroes and science and entered a microscopic sword-and-sorcery adventure? This is that. If “The Forty-Niners” was a more serious Top 10 tale than the original series, “Smax” leans even heavier into whimsy, dispensing with the police concept almost entirely. Almost nothing in the story requires Smax and Toybox to be the protagonists; with a little tweaking of details, it could have been any odd couple from the big city going to visit the enchanted hometown of the grumpy member of the pair. This first issue is all about the “fish out of water” aspect for Robyn (and thus the reader), with Jeff/Jaafs as the tour guide and exposition master. Zander Cannon handles art duties (but not colors) without Gene Ha this time around. I really miss Ha’s gift for well-executed, appropriate facial expressions, but Cannon can render the level of background material required to realize Alan Moore’s legendarily detailed scripts.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 19, 2018 11:31:13 GMT -5
The first issue has a great page, as Jaaf and Robyn ride in the taxi to Neopolis, where you see one of the Wacky Racers, a Tron lightcycle, the Magic Schoolbus, Kaneda (Akira) on his motorcycle and the jawa sandcrawler. When they get out, you can see Neil Gaiman's Death walking ahead.
The gateway for their departure is a tribute to Ditko, complete with an attendant who looks like Wong. When they arrive in Fairyland, they are met by Shakespeare's Three Witches. When they first step outside, you see a pair of elves, from Elfquest.
There are tons of easter eggs throughout, including Cinderella and the Lorax. Robyn's room is piled with mattresses, with a pea under them, ala The Princess and the Pea. There is a nice return gag, for it, at the end.
I found that Cannon's lighter style suited things, as it gives it the fantasy quality that Ha's more realistic style wouldn't. The helps lull you into a false sense of security, as this appears to be a comedy; but, there is a sense of something lurking underneath all of the bright cheery things and people.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 19, 2018 11:37:06 GMT -5
ps the pink rabbit character mugger is from an indie comic, I think. My first thought was Sam & Max; but Max is a white rabbit, though Steve Purcell's style was similar. I know I've seen it in a comic shop or comic-related magazine; but, can't recall which.
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Post by rberman on Jul 20, 2018 5:32:06 GMT -5
Smax #2 “… And Isn’t It Bad, So Quiet There in the Wood?” (November 2003)
Cover Tag: Smax the Adventurer, with Conan-homage art, as Smax stands atop a heap of slain foes while a scantily-clad Robyn covers herself with her arms. She’s not that kind of girl! (It’s a Conan homage.) The Story: At the funeral for Jeff’s dwarven uncle, Robyn is still enraged that he dragged her into the family drama by pretending she was his wife. Most of this issue is a combination of exposition and flashback telling his life story to her. His mother was an adventurer who was raped and imprisoned by an ogre. After their mother died in childbirth, Jeff and his sister Rexa were raised in abuse by the ogre, who began sexually abusing Rexa as well. Jeff murdered dad, and the towering twins were taken in by a dwarven clan. Jeff became a questing adventurer like his mother before him, but when he failed to rescue a girl from the dragon behemoth Morningbright (who looks more like a giant cat than a lizard), he moved to Neopolis to become a policeman. The dead girl’s dying hand left a permanent ash print on his chest, now known as the “Maiden’s Mark.” Also, Jeff bonded sexually with his sister while growing up imprisoned in a cave under their abusive father. It’s now expected that he will marry her, but he’s grown accustomed to Neopolis’ moral structures and now feels weirded out by the idea of marrying his sister. So, there’s that. Robyn ponders the mysterious words of the lethal dragon in Jeff’s tale: “Heed, earthly lass, lest our rustic orb become your nemesis.” Hey, it’s an acronym: H…e…l…l…o…R…o…b…y…n” Whaaaa….. My Two Cents: Hearing this story of a brutish father and an impoverished upbringing, one is tempted to play armchair psychiatrist to speculate on Mr. Moore’s childhood, his “crazy recluse” persona, and the reasons for his recurring fascination with characters who exploit sexuality, especially adolescent sexuality. See also the Sidekicks in Top 10, Sturm und Drang in The Forty-Niners, Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, all the Lost Girls, Dr. Manhattan’s seduction of young Silk Spectre II, young Evey trying to be and later pretending to be an underage prostitute in V for Vendetta and… well, that’s all the Alan Moore I have read or heard much about, so you’ll have to tell me whether Lolitas and baby prostitutes lurk in the halls of Promethea and other properties where he’s free to choose his own topics. Not that people only write their own lives, but in coded ways they often do, especially when a thematic thread runs through many works. Anyway, there doesn’t seem to be a lot out there about young Alan Moore, except that he did grow up in deprivation in midland England with his parents and brother. Though a voracious reader, he was kicked out of high school at age 17 for dealing drugs and spent much of his twenties working odd jobs before breaking into comics. Whatever the case, Moore pretty much tells us everything there is to know about Smax in this one issue, which is a variation on “the one that got away,” the unsolved case that nags at him. But he’s no Captain Ahab, as we’ll see next issue; he has to be dragged into tying up this loose end from his past. His vulnerability diffuses Robyn’s anger at being made a pawn, while giving her a tantalizing puzzle to solve, that this message from the pivotal moment in Jeff’s life decades ago also somehow contained a personalized message for her. Easter Eggs: This issue features few gags since most panels are just Jeff and Robyn walking through the woods. All the dwarves have very specific faces, which I suspect mean something to Alan Moore and perhaps fans of British culture, but their significance is totally lost on me. I don't know whether to count this as an Easter Egg or a trick of perspective or an art error, but Smax's height seems to vary substantially. Cannon consistently renders Robyn's headas coming up about to Smax' armpit, making him two heads taller than she is. Gene Ha sometimes seemed in this ballpark, but in some panels, especially in the "Godz Bar" sequence, made Smax astonishingly taller than that even: In a similar vein, throughout this series, Jeff’s real name is consistently spelled “Jaafs,” except that when spoken by Morningside the dragon, it’s “Jaffs.” It’s too specific to be an accident, but its meaning eludes me.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 20, 2018 11:58:29 GMT -5
The cover is more than just an homage; there are easter eggs there, too. The axe is Kull's ("By this axe I rule"). Just to the right of Robyn's shoulder is the Glaive, from the movie Krull (love that film, flaws and all). To the left of Jaafs' knee is Connor MacLeod's katana. The shield at Robyn's foot looks like a US Highway road sign and a smiley face, mixed together.
With Morningbright, I think Moore was trying to convey other dragons of folklore that were different than the idea of a big, fire-breathing lizard. As for the significance of Jaafs, I think he was going for something Icelandic, like the Eddas, which kind of fits into his backstory.
No idea about the dwarves; but, I suspect that might have been Cannon, using friends and others to give them more distinctive features. It seems more like the kind of thing Moore would leave to the artist, unless he wanted a specific reference.
The blue crystals in Morningbright's cave are probably a reference to the German fantasy film, The Blue Light, from Leni Riefenstahl. In the film, a young woman, thought to be a witch, guards the secret of a cave of blue crystals, which create a mysterious blue glow in the mountains. She shares the secret with a young painter, who betrays it and the villagers descend upon the cave to loot it.
I think way too much is made of Alan Moore and prostitutes and other elements. His depiction is far more realistic than Frank Miller's, in his works. Also, consider that Moore grew up in an urban area, in the underclasses, and probably was well aware of prostitution and such. Sex is a major element in his work; but, it is not the fetishized sex of most "adult" comics. He doesn't, generally, use pin-up models and pornos; but, instead, elements from erotic literature. The man had a polyamorous relationship, when he was married (of course that didn't end well) and Melinda Gebbie has also worked in the themes of sex, in her comics. Lost Girls gets into the psycho-sexual elements of those literary characters, something which underlines many Victorian works. Killing Joke is a myth that has grown over time. At no point is it explicitly stated that Barbara Gordon was sexually violated. She was undressed and photographed, which is depraved enough; but, everything else is left ambiguous and is inferred by readers. Those who imagined sexual assaults have then passed it on to those who haven't read the book. It's not a big leap, mentally, to imagine sexual abuse, given the unclothing and Barbara's expressions in the photos James Gordon sees, though they are faces of pain and she was shot in the pelvic region. It is just as conceivable that Joker tortured her by putting pressure on her wound.
Moore's use of sex or sexual overtones (or undertones) usually has a point in the story. Evy needs money and prostitution is about the only avenue open to her. It's her first attempt and she is bad at it, especially as she tries to pick up a pair of cops. That is an old story of urban vice. In Watchmen, the whole idea of costumed vigilantes is explored for the psychological underpinnnings of the mentality. One of those subjects is fetishism and outright sex. Sally's mother dresses in a provocative outfit and plays the tease with everyone. Lori grows up in that environment and is stage managed by her mother into taking over the role, at a very young age. She is fascinated by John and he returns her interest, as part of his curiosity and probably because of seeing time in a non-linear fashion, knowing that they will be together. Lori was shaped by her very specific environment, just as Evy was placed into a set of specific circumstances.
Jaafs and Rexa are actually part of a very old tradition in storytelling. The unedited versions of many fairy tales and myths revolve around sexual matters and myths are filled with lovers who are relatives. They are the earliest beings and they mate together, to create the next generation. Moore (and other British writers) use the older forms of the stories, rather than the more sanitized Disney versions that Americans grow up with. Also, the taboos of not mating with relatives are relatively recent, in society. In many small communities, it was very common for first cousins to be married; and, in some very isolated environments, siblings were not unheard of. If you consider that in other species, it is not unknown for litter mates to mate, then it is not hard to see that it is more common than people think, in human history. As Jaafs constantly points out to Robyn, this is an old world, without the taboos of modern society, for good and ill.
I think this is less Moore confronting metaphorical demons of a possible past as much as confronting modern readers with older concepts; ones that American comics have not addressed, in their arrested adolescence. Ours is a rather repressed society, in all facets, based partly on our puritanical origins. I think Moore is challenging the reader to expand their world view and consider ideas beyond the safe ones that traditional comics and American media have presented. We make jokes about Jerry Lee Lewis marrying underaged cousins, while we are mostly oblivious to the lyrics in the Police's "Don't Stand So Close to Me," with references to "...that book by Nabokov..." A lot of European works of note challenged the sexual repression of their times (Barbarella, the work of Guido Crepax, Manara's works, etc...). Most were both applauded and vilified for it. Here in America, our exposure has mostly been limited to what was translated in heavy Metal, to a more select audience, who more often saw it as nudity and sex, rather than more complex stories with frank depictions of erotic themes, or just adult behavior as a small portion of a larger adult story. At the same time, they bring the dark secrets to light, to make us acknowledge them and discuss them, in a mature attempt to heal and grow.
Howard Chaykin is one of the few American creators to challenge similar morays, in his work. However, he presents a very fetishized world, one of a particularly Baby Boomer experience, with garter belts and black stockings, stiletto heels and leather, casual sex and domination themes, and large breasts. Many of his works are crime stories and the characters within that genre tend to be people with hidden secrets and sex tends to be this kind of fetishized world. Things is, American audiences were trained with buxom women in scanty and impractical costumes, with scenes or torture and danger, and little depiction of even romantic love, let alone sex. Chaykin is deliberately provocative, as is Moore, especially of the repressed comic book readership (especially Chaykin, who was one of them, in his youth). Chaykin probably goes more for shock value than Moore, as Chaykin is focused more on the visual, while Moore is more on the concepts. Chaykin goes more for the Chinatown reveal, while Moore is more subtle in his dealings with things like incest, uncovering the layers of protection until the secrets are revealed, showing how it has affected those around the person.
Sex and prostitution are not major elements of Tom Strong, though there is some sex there (mostly implied), nor was it a big part of Halo Jones or the Bojeffries Saga. It's not a huge element of Supreme or 1963. Moore uses it when it serves a purpose within his story and doesn't just throw it in all of the time. Sex isn't a central part of Miracleman, beyond the depravities of Dr Gargunza (mostly visited on Miracle Woman), though sex occurs in the work. It is mostly in the background. You don't find it in much of his DC work, apart from Swamp Thing, which was a horror title, for mature audiences, which dealt in all kinds of dark secrets, many with psycho-sexual connotations.
I think Moore likes to be the provocateur. For someone so allegedly reclusive, he is very public. He has conducted tons of interviews, in print and on camera. He doesn't attend conventions in the US; but, has in the UK. He talks of magic and worshipping snake gods; but, then describes what is, basically, meditation. he has dabbled in drugs and sexual experimentation, just like his literary heroes, Michael Moorcock and William S Burroughs. I think he enjoys tweaking the noses of society, especially comic readers. I think his success is a direct reflection of how good he is at targeting our psychological buttons.
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cee
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Post by cee on Jul 20, 2018 12:38:33 GMT -5
Moore isn't that reclusive : he's got quite a rich social life by anyone's standard, is doing plentu of public appearances. He doesn't travel outside the UK since he doesn't have apassport, being an anarchist. He can still travel through Europe, but that's about to end with Brexit. He is so good because he works hard
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Post by rberman on Jul 20, 2018 14:18:36 GMT -5
Lots of good things to discuss here! I think way too much is made of Alan Moore and prostitutes and other elements. His depiction is far more realistic than Frank Miller's, in his works. Also, consider that Moore grew up in an urban area, in the underclasses, and probably was well aware of prostitution and such. Sex is a major element in his work; but, it is not the fetishized sex of most "adult" comics. He doesn't, generally, use pin-up models and pornos; but, instead, elements from erotic literature. The man had a polyamorous relationship, when he was married (of course that didn't end well) and Melinda Gebbie has also worked in the themes of sex, in her comics. Lost Girls gets into the psycho-sexual elements of those literary characters, something which underlines many Victorian works. Killing Joke is a myth that has grown over time. At no point is it explicitly stated that Barbara Gordon was sexually violated. She was undressed and photographed, which is depraved enough; but, everything else is left ambiguous and is inferred by readers. Those who imagined sexual assaults have then passed it on to those who haven't read the book. It's not a big leap, mentally, to imagine sexual abuse, given the unclothing and Barbara's expressions in the photos James Gordon sees, though they are faces of pain and she was shot in the pelvic region. It is just as conceivable that Joker tortured her by putting pressure on her wound. I am agnostic on whether Barbara Gordon was raped. However, being forcibly undressed and photographed counts as sexual assault in my book, even without the gunshot wound. I agree that Moore works all of these elements into the story. It's just striking how, of all the stories that exist to be told, teen sexuality is the story that he often wants to tell. There are lots of ways that Moore could have communicated "Evey is at the end of her financial rope." He could have shown her eating from garbage cans, or getting evicted from a rat-hole. Instead, Moore chose teenage prostitution. There are lots of ways he could have shown that the vicar (bishop? I don't remember his rank now) of Westminster Abbey is a horrible person. He could have kicked a homeless guy or strangled a parakeet or punched his wife or kids. Instead, Moore chose teenage prostitution. There are lots of bad things the Seven Sentinels could have been up to in Top Ten behind the facade of their heroism. Collaborating with aliens. Protection racket. Blackmailing authority figures with their super-powers. Instead, Moore chose teenage sexual abuse. There are lots of bad things that Sturm und Drang might have to be ashamed of, as former Nazi ubermenschen. Rounding up Jews and homosexuals. Using their powers to exterminate people in concentration camps. Strafing the Dunkirk evacuation or the Omaha Beach landing. Instead, Moore chose incest. What would make for a good complication between Jeff and his family when he returns home from Neopolis? Of a wide range of obvious fantasy-themed choices, Moore chose incest. I haven't read "Lost Girls," but from what little I've heard, it starts with "What if fairy tale characters were re-imagined with a focus on..." and, of all the possible endings to that story stem (warfare, detective stories, the glass ceiling, etc.), Moore chose " young women having sex." It strikes me as reasonable, when a theme recurs prominently across an author's oeuvre, to suppose he has an affinity or attraction to that theme. Tolkien wrote a lot of fairy stories but not science fiction. Asimov wrote a lot of science stories but not fantasy. That says something about the two men, their upbringing, their thought lives. What I see in the Moore that I've read (which is far from comprehensive, mind you) is that the running theme is not genre (cop stories, sci fi, super-heroes, gothic fantasy, horror, medieval fantasy) but rather the prominence of teenage sexuality. Perhaps more Moore reading in the future will cure me of a false impression, as you suggest. The Silk Spectre issue that you raise makes some sense, at least for mom, since "Why in the world would a crime-fighting woman dress like Phantom Lady does?" is a totally legitimate topic for a comic-book deconstructing Golden Age tropes. Laurie being a teenager when she meets Manhattan is mainly a necessity based on how old her mother is, the circumstances of her conception, and how old she's going to be in the "present tense" frame of the story. Obviously the Disney versions are nowhere near the original stories, which were not intended for kids. I'd be curious to know the sources from which British kids of the mid-20th century (your Gaimans and Moores) heard their fairly tales. Even the Brothers Grimm working in the early 19th century Bowdlerized the stories they collected. Mind you, the incest proscription is not just "a taboo of modern society"; incest is forbidden in the Old Testament and the Code of Hammurabi, for instance. As you say, people living in tiny communities do resort to closer and closer relatives to satisfy the sexual urge. But if Moore's agenda is to "challenge the reader to expand their world view" to include incest as a healthy form of human flourishing, I for one say "No thank you." I am sure you are right about that. There's a certain pleasure in being a contrarian. (I confess to finding that inside myself.) Besides, controversy sells, and sex sells, and the combination moreso.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 20, 2018 15:40:36 GMT -5
See, I think Moore is reflecting discussions of the subject, in other circles. For instance, the British tv series, Prime Suspect (a detective series, with helen Mirren), in the late 90s, focused on a case involving "rent boys" (adolescent male prostitutes), the murder of one, and a pedophile ring, with connection to a gay club and a youth center.You had a lot of stories come out in the media about sexual abuse by people in authority, teenage prostitution (a byproduct of abuse), and things like child pornography rings and sex trafficking in the Third World (especially Thailand). The British media are less squeamish about exploring these subjects than US media. It also has a long history with the issues, given prostitution in the Victorian era, in the depression, the war era and post-war Britain. I think Moore is as much exploring those same issues in his work and probably also knows that it will set off responses in the reader. Remember, much of his work revolves around horror and terror, with the biggest horrors and terrors in life coming from human predators. I suspect it is a mixture of interest in the subject, from living in urban environments, in hard economic times, as a member of the underclasses; as well as thinking commercially, by using shocking themes to add depth to his work. It is also possible that there are personal issues involved that he brings to the work. Thing is, I haven't heard or watched an interview that really delves into that, as most tend to be either fawning things, about his success or focus on the more commercial pieces of his body of work, like Watchmen, or the creative process.
Moore isn't the only one exploring the same themes, though; just the most prominent. Rick Veitch explored the twisted nature of costumed vigilantes with adolescent sidekicks, in the Bratpack and Brian Michael Bendis did it in Powers. Even the Venture Brothers touched upon it. Around the same time frame and before, we had Hulk stories about childhood abuse and a Spider-Man story, about Peter admitting to being aused by someone, when he was young (as part of a targeted story on the subject, ala the famous drug issue).
Within the context of Top Ten, it is fitting that these issues come up. Police officers and detectives deal with the worst elements of humanity and do so repeatedly. I knew someone who was a social worker, who dealt with youth cases, when the authorities were called in. She saw a lot of abuse and the inability of the system to adequately address the problem. She taught an adolescent psychology class, which I was taking, and told us a very few stories about some of the cases she was involved with, including one where, because the child recanted her accusations, she had no alternative but leave a child in a situation where she knew there was abuse, because she had no legal recourse. She cancelled class that day, after explaining why she wasn't equipped to teach it. I later met her a few times, when I worked for Barnes & Noble and got to know her more. She left the field for her own mental health and instead was working with a shelter for abused women and children, where she felt she could make a more positive impact.
I saw more than enough as a Naval officer, far more than most of my peers from school. I was at a program that helped with alcohol addictions and people with eating disorders and met one young female sailor, who was 19 and fresh out of boot camp, who had a severe drinking problem. She had been the victim of abuse from her father, who even held a gun to her head and threatened to kill her. I was an acting officer of the court in a court martial proceeding for a warrant officer, who had been sexually abusing his 15 year-old daughter, since she was 7. Around the same time, there was a sailor in the brig who was accused of sexually abusing his infant child.
I can only guess at Moore's motivations; but, I do think he, generally, treats the subject with more depth and sensitivity than most of his contemporaries, except maybe Neil Gaiman. I think Gaiman approaches those kinds of subject from a more optimistic perspective.
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Post by rberman on Jul 20, 2018 15:59:25 GMT -5
Apart from the underage angle (which speaks to vulnerability and thus despicableness), note also how prominent the theme of prostitution is in Top Ten. What's the other job of super-hero-turned-serial killer M'rrgla Qualtz? Porn star. What's her super power? Making people imagine sex with her. Whom does she kill? A hooker. Who helps the cops flush her out of the sewers? Hookers. Which of the many people that Kemlo meets in his cop job becomes a love interest with whom his boss tells him to "follow his heart"? The hooker. With which cop does he have the most interaction? Sung Li, the naked "Girl One" created by leering scientists.
Mind you, a certain amount of prostitution-related drama is expected in a cop story, since cops recognize the value of informants who (a) hang around the streets at night and see things, (b) are criminals who can be pressured to tell what they know, and (c) are not violent offenders who will hurt someone if not locked up this very moment. And Moore does handle other crimes in Top Ten, like reckless teleporting, public drunkenness, and Baldur's murder. Drugs play a recurrent role in the story also: Gromolko makes them, Boots distributes them, Ultima deals them, Blue Jay consumes them. But the crime that Moore keeps coming back to repeatedly is prostitution.
Perhaps one day we'll get a well-researched Alan Moore biography. For now, we can just notice the trend, and speculation quickly turns into a dead end. He's an enigma shrouded in hair and shadow. And there are no hookers or drugs in this Smax series, though we will see some vulnerable children upcoming.
P.S. "Krull" is a semi-guilty pleasure for me as well. So cheesy, yet with some really fun ideas, and great music by James Horner (some of it re-used for The Wrath of Khan and Aliens), plus surprise appearances by Liam "Qui-Gon" Neeson and Robbie "Hagrid" Coltrane and Francesca "Bene Gesserit Witch!" Annis.
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cee
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Post by cee on Jul 20, 2018 16:42:24 GMT -5
1 - It's just striking how, of all the stories that exist to be told, teen sexuality is the story that he often wants to tell. 2 - I haven't read "Lost Girls," but from what little I've heard, it starts with "What if fairy tale characters were re-imagined with a focus on..." and, of all the possible endings to that story stem (warfare, detective stories, the glass ceiling, etc.), Moore chose " young women having sex." 3 - Obviously the Disney versions are nowhere near the original stories, which were not intended for kids. 4 - Incest is forbidden in the Old Testament and the Code of Hammurabi, for instance. As you say, people living in tiny communities do resort to closer and closer relatives to satisfy the sexual urge. But if Moore's agenda is to "challenge the reader to expand their world view" to include incest as a healthy form of human flourishing, I for one say "No thank you." 1 : If you look at the sum of his comic works, it's hardly a trend. Violence is a much more prevalant theme. But in my opinion, what Moore's really about is applying the principle of reality to fantasy. How close we are to fantasy in our reality is a much more prevalent theme. I believe I've read every Moore comic, and it wouldn't be before I became aware of such attacks against his work that I even noticed it could be argued so. But again, I don't find it prevalent. Sexual violence and abuse are the most common forms of violence in humanity, though, most often exercised against women. And Moore being a feminist, he's just more honest about it than most comic book writers who mostly rely on fist fights and such to depict violence, or straight up murder. Depicting violence against women in fiction is imporant. Dumas and Hugo's novels are filled with that as well. 2 - Lost Girls is such a different book than the one you just described. I understand you haven't read it, but it is such a fantastic book with a much different concept. It is more akiin tis : "what if those fiction (not fairy tale!) characters were real, and met in their adult life, at a crucial point in history and geography, to tell each others what their sexual lives are like and have been, at a time were this topic was becoming a major one in society, when people's behaviors became much more liberal. Not being especialy attracted to the topic, it's a wonderfull thing that Moore and Gebbie managed to create one of the most innovative comic book ever, with dozens of new storytelling techniques and a vast range of art styles. It's easily in my top 3 comic books ever. 3 - Actually, they were. And your inclination (you're not alone there) to believe they weren't may be at the root of many controversies around Moore, IMHO sadly... American society is becoming increasingly more conservative, and context gets lost too often. Just look at the Ren & Stimpy show with 2018 eyes : most people would never believe this was a kid's show, and the most popular one in the early 90ies moreover. 4 - And yet, it happens everyday, in big cities as well if not more. But no, Moore's agenda isn't to "challenge the reader to expand their world view" to include incest as a healthy form of human flourishing. Why would you even think that? Do you think that Thomas Harris is an advocate for cannibalism as a healthy form of human flourishing? Sorry if I misunderstood you.
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Post by rberman on Jul 20, 2018 17:05:18 GMT -5
1 - It's just striking how, of all the stories that exist to be told, teen sexuality is the story that he often wants to tell. 2 - I haven't read "Lost Girls," but from what little I've heard, it starts with "What if fairy tale characters were re-imagined with a focus on..." and, of all the possible endings to that story stem (warfare, detective stories, the glass ceiling, etc.), Moore chose " young women having sex." 3 - Obviously the Disney versions are nowhere near the original stories, which were not intended for kids. 4 - Incest is forbidden in the Old Testament and the Code of Hammurabi, for instance. As you say, people living in tiny communities do resort to closer and closer relatives to satisfy the sexual urge. But if Moore's agenda is to "challenge the reader to expand their world view" to include incest as a healthy form of human flourishing, I for one say "No thank you." 3 - Actually, they were. And your inclination (you're not alone there) to believe they weren't may be at the root of many controversies around Moore, IMHO sadly... American society is becoming increasingly more conservative, and context gets lost too often. Just look at the Ren & Stimpy show with 2018 eyes : most people would never believe this was a kid's show, and the most popular one in the early 90ies moreover. 4 - And yet, it happens everyday, in big cities as well if not more. But no, Moore's agenda isn't to "challenge the reader to expand their world view" to include incest as a healthy form of human flourishing. Why would you even think that? Do you think that Thomas Harris is an advocate for cannibalism as a healthy form of human flourishing? Sorry if I misunderstood you. 3 - I'm thinking of how Ariel survives the end of The Little Mermaid and gets married, rather than dissolving into sea foam. I haven't seen Disney's Hunchback movie, but I understand it has a happy ending as well, whereas the book (and the Disney stage musical based on it) depict Esmerelda dying and the Hunchback pining away to death after killing a bunch of guards. 4 - I had to look up Thomas Harris, but I see he's the creator of Hannibal "the cannibal" Lecter, who as far as I know is a villain rather than a role model. As for why I would think Moore is promoting incest in the Smax series, I don't want to say any more on that topic until we see how Moore plays out this plotline in the posts I'll be making here over the next few days. Stay tuned!
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cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
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Post by cee on Jul 20, 2018 17:32:41 GMT -5
3 - Yes, and those still were read by kids (I know kids used to read actual real books, chocking, isn't it?) I grew up reading the Grimm Brothers collections and much darker ones, and so did many of my friends when we were not even 10. 4 - Respectfully, I strongly disgree with this (even if I understand the tease ) : he's just telling a story with an internal logic, and I don't see how while reading this, it would change my mind about my sister. The fact that the story has a happy end doesn't mean it is promoting incest, it's just that in the context of this story, it works, and it does. Did you feel disgusted by it? Are stories about incest not supposed to be told? They do exist in reality, though. I thought it was a beautifull little tale of acceptance, but never did I take its message to be "go and be incestuous with your sister, it's great". It's just a great way to remember that morality is as relative as anything else. BTW no, Lecter wasn't the "villain" of the series, he was the main character, one tat Harris highly romanticised. Not all books have heroes and villains, of course.
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Post by rberman on Jul 20, 2018 18:17:11 GMT -5
3 - Yes, and those still were read by kids (I know kids used to read actual real books, chocking, isn't it?) I grew up reading the Grimm Brothers collections and much darker ones, and so did many of my friends when we were not even 10. 4 - Respectfully, I strongly disgree with this (even if I understand the tease ) : he's just telling a story with an internal logic, and I don't see how while reading this, it would change my mind about my sister. The fact that the story has a happy end doesn't mean it is promoting incest, it's just that in the context of this story, it works, and it does. Did you feel disgusted by it? Are stories about incest not supposed to be told? They do exist in reality, though. I thought it was a beautifull little tale of acceptance, but never did I take its message to be "go and be incestuous with your sister, it's great". It's just a great way to remember that morality is as relative as anything else. BTW no, Lecter wasn't the "villain" of the series, he was the main character, one tat Harris highly romanticised. Not all books have heroes and villains, of course. The notion that "morality is as relative as anything else" is not universally held. I don't even think it's an internally consistent claim, but this forum doesn't seem like the place for that discussion. At any rate I've already planted my flag on "anti-incest" soil in this thread, but I don't plan to harp on it.
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