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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 7, 2018 18:57:42 GMT -5
Defenders #82 Creative Team: Ed Hannigan-story, Don perlin-layouts, Joe Sinnott-finishes, John Costanza-letters, Glynis Wein-colors, Al Milgrom-edits, Jim Shooter-Driving the bus Synopsis: Buzzard-Face parades his captives, Furball Wizard awakens the Hulk, who smashes some puny non-humans, then gets put back under Buzzard-Face's control. Namor, Doc and Wing-Head confer with the People's front of Judea, when the Romans turn up, complete with Kirby death Machine (tm) and the fight is on. Namor helps take out the machine, then Doc does an astral recon of Buzzard-Face's fortress. hulk gets an evil makeover and a bird to ride and Hulk/Arzach takes to the skies to attack the dude Defenders. He gets trapped in a globe, Buzzard face gets one in the back, from Wing-Head and we are told that the Fat Lady hasn't come on stage yet. nothing form the ladies. Thoughts: Lot of mind control, lot of gnashing of teeth in fear, lot of smashing. Don Perlin starts a ling tenure as artist. the women are sorely missed.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 7, 2018 19:16:32 GMT -5
Defenders #83 Creative Team: Bob Sharen does the colors, everyone else the same. Synopsis: Doc and Namor clean up the bodies and Wing-Head tells everyone that they are free. uh-hunh; what about the unnameable One? Val and Patsy break up a bank robbery, while Kyle consults his attorney...  The Government makes a deal with Mutant Force and we go back to Tunnelworld. Hulk's globe is being dragged somewhere, Buzzard-Face causes problems and Doc goes inside Hulk's mind to free him. It ends up all psychedelic and Hulk wakes up. The End. The letters page has cat yronwode rip into Marvel for F-ing up Omega. Thoughts: I gloss over a bit of Tunnelworld stuff; but, it is third-rate fantasy cliches and typical Doc save the day while the rest twiddle thumb (Namor does get to punch the Hulk a bit). Patsy finds out her agility is not related to the cat suit, like she thought, as she kicks ass in civies. The mutants get a government deal and liberal lip service to them being given a tough break because of their genetic history. Snowflakes! I don't remember these guys, at all; but, suspect they will go to work for the gov. This was done better, later, with the updated Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, though even that didn't make a ton of sense, given their rap sheet. John Ostrander did it better with Suicide Squad. The whole Tunnelworld story was rather cliched and dull, apart from moments with the Hulk (Lord of the Rings could have used a Hulk). The Mandrill storyline was more interesting, though cut too short, while Tunnelworld dragged on about 2 issues too much). The female characters still tend to be more interesting than the males of the team (apart from Nighthawk); but, they still get rescued by the boys. Kyle's legal woes still don't hold up to scrutiny. That subplot is wearing out its welcome and needs to be resolved.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 8, 2018 0:22:23 GMT -5
I had a couple of of the tunnel world issues. #81, 83 and 86 were the first Defenders I tried, not the greatest intro though it's been interesting reading synopsis here about what the tunnel world 'saga' was about that I'd missed. I didn't become a regular Defenders buyer into well past #100 sometime right before the ex X-Men were added. I thought Val and Hellcat were cool but they were treated too much like minor subplot side attractions in the few issues I saw. Mandrill was a memorable character but didn't appeal to me particularly like some baddies did, maybe it was the cape? Ah... I remember Xhoohx!  |
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Post by brutalis on Nov 8, 2018 9:14:47 GMT -5
At this point the Defenders team was so far gone from the original concept (and likely losing readers) so i would bet Editorship decided it was wise to push the originals back on the covers to draw attention and boost sales before reuniting the ladies with the gents. Lots of folks would know Doc, Subby and Hulk at a glance while not as many know Val and Patsy and Kyle. Putting the big 3 on covers would draw in readers who followed those heroes and looking for more of their favorite heroes.
The "upgraded" Nighthawk wasn't to my liking. Kyle and his stories were always fairly dull after his intro and inclusion on the team. I adored his blue/gold with buccaneer boots but he was never truly utilized properly as an athletic/agility based super strength at night character. This new iteration was meant to improve his power set making him a more flight powered character with some offensive capabilities with the guns in the cape/wings and his new hand claws (shades of Wolverine envy) so he might stand out in the crowded team and offer something more. It just never really worked for me and ever since poor old Kyle who began as an evil Batman devolved into something less interesting and eventually killed off as writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. Sad really because in the Gerber/Giffen Defenders there was a great connection formed between Nighthawk and Moon Knight. These 2 Marvel Batman riffs could have made an interesting and dynamic duo if given the chance in a series.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 8, 2018 13:44:34 GMT -5
At this point the Defenders team was so far gone from the original concept (and likely losing readers) so i would bet Editorship decided it was wise to push the originals back on the covers to draw attention and boost sales before reuniting the ladies with the gents. Lots of folks would know Doc, Subby and Hulk at a glance while not as many know Val and Patsy and Kyle. Putting the big 3 on covers would draw in readers who followed those heroes and looking for more of their favorite heroes. The "upgraded" Nighthawk wasn't to my liking. Kyle and his stories were always fairly dull after his intro and inclusion on the team. I adored his blue/gold with buccaneer boots but he was never truly utilized properly as an athletic/agility based super strength at night character. This new iteration was meant to improve his power set making him a more flight powered character with some offensive capabilities with the guns in the cape/wings and his new hand claws (shades of Wolverine envy) so he might stand out in the crowded team and offer something more. It just never really worked for me and ever since poor old Kyle who began as an evil Batman devolved into something less interesting and eventually killed off as writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. Sad really because in the Gerber/Giffen Defenders there was a great connection formed between Nighthawk and Moon Knight. These 2 Marvel Batman riffs could have made an interesting and dynamic duo if given the chance in a series. 70s Marvel (and DC, for that matter) is littered with great characters who weren't used as well as they could have been. I always thought Jack of Hearts was a cool looking character, with interesting powers; but, everyone but Perez hated drawing the costume and, aside from a couple of tryouts and a mini, he never really got much love. Paladin was another. He had a cool debut in Daredevil, with an interesting personality and a decent costume (though the color scheme needed to be reworked). He got a few appearances, then got a bit of a makeover and turned up for a few issues of Captain America, then kind of sporadically dropped in and out. If you ask me, there was an interesting series in that character, if anyone had bothered. Swashbuckling, romantic mercenary? Come on, how can you not make that work? Marvel Premiere often had more interesting stories, with minor characters, than were headlining books, during the same period. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 8, 2018 14:46:37 GMT -5
Definitely agree about Paladin. I really liked that issue of Marvel Premiere that featured him. And I would have been perfectly happy if, instead of the Punisher (who was always more of a bad guy to me), Paladin had become the break-out, gun-slinging and, yes, swashbuckling anti-hero of the 1980s.
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Post by brutalis on Nov 8, 2018 15:04:06 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere was the home of fun ideas. Man-Wolf as a regular tortured transforming creature works ok as a one and done kind of story in Spider-Man. A man trapped in a wolf form due to a "moon" crystal stuck in his throat who is actually a heroic barbarian sword wielding wolf-god who rally's a world and helps save them all? That is all kinds of awesome! Jack of Hearts like you said codystarbuck is one I always liked and he never seemed to get attention until they went cosmic with him later on and then make him an Avenger which should show his abilities off but all they can come up with is to kill him. Paladin wasn't really a stand out (yes, poor color scheme) in the mercenary field when you have the likes of Chaykin's Dominic Fortune or Moon Knight and the like. But any character can be cool and exciting if given the right opportunity from a writer or artist who has the drive and desire to make more of them. Jack of Hearts just required a simplified costume and less convoluted origin story (original idea doused with Zero fluid his body can't contain was perfect: then changed to being a half-alien?!?) for him to sell better. 3D-Man worked great as a 1950's origin but keeping him within that period of time limits his story and sales potential. Use it though as a stepping stone for him being around since the 50's into current MU time haunting the shadows and alley's hunting aliens and then you have a good series. Part of the draw for me with Defenders over the long haul wasn't for Doc, Subby and Hulk but for those other team members; Nighthawk, Valkyrie and to a lesser degree Hellcat. Son of Satan coming on was a draw for me since he no longer had his own comic or being used much anymore. Gargoyle comes along and really embraces the "gargoyle" concepts and adds to it with him actually being an old man who now rediscovers the joys of life. Defenders as a mainstream super-hero team means they are just another big group of "anybody's" and I much prefer them as oddities in the world of heroic tackling strange, weird, odd and the unknown villains. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 8, 2018 15:57:22 GMT -5
Marvel Premiere was the home of fun ideas. Man-Wolf as a regular tortured transforming creature works ok as a one and done kind of story in Spider-Man. A man trapped in a wolf form due to a "moon" crystal stuck in his throat who is actually a heroic barbarian sword wielding wolf-god who rally's a world and helps save them all? That is all kinds of awesome! Oh, yeah. I absolutely *loved* those two issues of Marvel Premiere, and always kind of wish someone had run with the idea of Man-Wolf as an adventuring sword & planet hero. Later, I found out that those stories were preceded by bunch of stories in Creatures on the Loose (also mostly drawn by Perez) - and I'm still wondering why they haven't been collected and reprinted... Otherwise, I especially liked that run of Marvel Premiere in the forties: not just Man-Wolf, but also the introduction of Scott Lang as Ant Man, plus Seeker 3000, Tigra, Paladin, Jack of Hearts, Falcon and capped off with Alice Cooper! Like you said, fun.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 8, 2018 17:54:35 GMT -5
Later, I found out that those stories were preceded by bunch of stories in Creatures on the Loose (also mostly drawn by Perez) - and I'm still wondering why they haven't been collected and reprinted... Otherwise, I especially liked that run of Marvel Premiere in the forties: not just Man-Wolf, but also the introduction of Scott Lang as Ant Man, plus Seeker 3000, Tigra, Paladin, Jack of Hearts, Falcon and capped off with Alice Cooper! Like you said, fun.
Have all those Premiere's except for Alice Cooper, a great run: #41-49. I have the Creatures with Man-Wolf and they are pretty uneven, starting more a regular horror book where as a Man-Wolf he keeps wanting to kill his fiancee with J. Jonah Jameson getting in the middle, then gets involved with 'other worlders' and spacecraft.  I liked Moon Knight in the Defenders, wonder how Man-Wolf or Jack Of Hearts might've worked there? Jack was a co-star in Iron Man for awhile from #103. |
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Post by berkley on Nov 9, 2018 2:22:10 GMT -5
Later, I found out that those stories were preceded by bunch of stories in Creatures on the Loose (also mostly drawn by Perez) - and I'm still wondering why they haven't been collected and reprinted... Otherwise, I especially liked that run of Marvel Premiere in the forties: not just Man-Wolf, but also the introduction of Scott Lang as Ant Man, plus Seeker 3000, Tigra, Paladin, Jack of Hearts, Falcon and capped off with Alice Cooper! Like you said, fun.
Have all those Premiere's except for Alice Cooper, a great run: #41-49. I have the Creatures with Man-Wolf and they are pretty uneven, starting more a regular horror book where as a Man-Wolf he keeps wanting to kill his fiancee with J. Jonah Jameson getting in the middle, then gets involved with 'other worlders' and spacecraft. I liked Moon Knight in the Defenders, wonder how Man-Wolf or Jack Of Hearts might've worked there? Jack was a co-star in Iron Man for awhile from #103. I especially liked the way Keith Giffen drew Moon Knight in those few Defenders issues he appeared in - inked by Mike Royer, which enhanced Giffen's Kirbyesque style of the time to new levels. I think Dave Kraft wrote him pretty well too, if I remember - haven't read these issues in many a day. I remember him and Nighthawk getting along in a cool way that might have been developed into one of those "buddy-movie" kind of things, and though perhaps this might not have been suitable for MK as a character in the long run, it seemed to work in the superhero-world of the Defenders. |
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Post by berkley on Nov 9, 2018 2:28:39 GMT -5
At this point the Defenders team was so far gone from the original concept (and likely losing readers) so i would bet Editorship decided it was wise to push the originals back on the covers to draw attention and boost sales before reuniting the ladies with the gents. Lots of folks would know Doc, Subby and Hulk at a glance while not as many know Val and Patsy and Kyle. Putting the big 3 on covers would draw in readers who followed those heroes and looking for more of their favorite heroes. The "upgraded" Nighthawk wasn't to my liking. Kyle and his stories were always fairly dull after his intro and inclusion on the team. I adored his blue/gold with buccaneer boots but he was never truly utilized properly as an athletic/agility based super strength at night character. This new iteration was meant to improve his power set making him a more flight powered character with some offensive capabilities with the guns in the cape/wings and his new hand claws (shades of Wolverine envy) so he might stand out in the crowded team and offer something more. It just never really worked for me and ever since poor old Kyle who began as an evil Batman devolved into something less interesting and eventually killed off as writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. Sad really because in the Gerber/Giffen Defenders there was a great connection formed between Nighthawk and Moon Knight. These 2 Marvel Batman riffs could have made an interesting and dynamic duo if given the chance in a series. Missed this when I was replying to beccabear67's post but yes, I liked the Moon Knight + Nighthawk pairing as well - though I've never really seen Moon Knight as a Batman riff, having first seen the character in the pages of Werewolf by Night, in which he was anything but that.
Haven't seen the redesigned Nighthawk you're talking about as I haven't yet read these "later" (as I think of them) Defenders issues, but yeah, doesn't sound good.
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 9, 2018 2:44:02 GMT -5
Defenders #83Creative Team: Bob Sharen does the colors, everyone else the same. Synopsis: Doc and Namor clean up the bodies and Wing-Head tells everyone that they are free. uh-hunh; what about the unnameable One? Val and Patsy break up a bank robbery, while Kyle consults his attorney... The Government makes a deal with Mutant Force and we go back to Tunnelworld. Hulk's globe is being dragged somewhere, Buzzard-Face causes problems and Doc goes inside Hulk's mind to free him. It ends up all psychedelic and Hulk wakes up. The End. The letters page has cat yronwode rip into Marvel for F-ing up Omega. Thoughts: I gloss over a bit of Tunnelworld stuff; but, it is third-rate fantasy cliches and typical Doc save the day while the rest twiddle thumb (Namor does get to punch the Hulk a bit). Patsy finds out her agility is not related to the cat suit, like she thought, as she kicks ass in civies. The mutants get a government deal and liberal lip service to them being given a tough break because of their genetic history. Snowflakes! I don't remember these guys, at all; but, suspect they will go to work for the gov. This was done better, later, with the updated Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, though even that didn't make a ton of sense, given their rap sheet. John Ostrander did it better with Suicide Squad. The whole Tunnelworld story was rather cliched and dull, apart from moments with the Hulk (Lord of the Rings could have used a Hulk). The Mandrill storyline was more interesting, though cut too short, while Tunnelworld dragged on about 2 issues too much). The female characters still tend to be more interesting than the males of the team (apart from Nighthawk); but, they still get rescued by the boys. Kyle's legal woes still don't hold up to scrutiny. That subplot is wearing out its welcome and needs to be resolved. The Mutant Force actually were originally an updated Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, formed by Magneto in Captain America Annual #4. And without wishing to spoiler anything, don't assume you know where their story is going just yet... |
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Post by tingramretro on Nov 9, 2018 3:30:05 GMT -5
At this point the Defenders team was so far gone from the original concept (and likely losing readers) so i would bet Editorship decided it was wise to push the originals back on the covers to draw attention and boost sales before reuniting the ladies with the gents. Lots of folks would know Doc, Subby and Hulk at a glance while not as many know Val and Patsy and Kyle. Putting the big 3 on covers would draw in readers who followed those heroes and looking for more of their favorite heroes. The "upgraded" Nighthawk wasn't to my liking. Kyle and his stories were always fairly dull after his intro and inclusion on the team. I adored his blue/gold with buccaneer boots but he was never truly utilized properly as an athletic/agility based super strength at night character. This new iteration was meant to improve his power set making him a more flight powered character with some offensive capabilities with the guns in the cape/wings and his new hand claws (shades of Wolverine envy) so he might stand out in the crowded team and offer something more. It just never really worked for me and ever since poor old Kyle who began as an evil Batman devolved into something less interesting and eventually killed off as writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. Sad really because in the Gerber/Giffen Defenders there was a great connection formed between Nighthawk and Moon Knight. These 2 Marvel Batman riffs could have made an interesting and dynamic duo if given the chance in a series. Interesting perspective. As a kid in the 70s, I never saw Nighthawk and the girls as being lesser characters, and I don't think Marvel treated them that way. They're fairly obscure now, but back then they were everywhere: Nighthawk alone guest starred in Dr. Strange, Avengers, Hulk, MTU and MTIO, and seemed to be treated as as much an integral part of the Marvel Universe then as someone like Daredevil or Luke Cage. It was after JM DeMatteis came on board that they seemed to lose interest in him and killed him off. Luckily, like most Marvel characters, he eventually got better... |
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Post by brutalis on Nov 9, 2018 7:50:24 GMT -5
At this point the Defenders team was so far gone from the original concept (and likely losing readers) so i would bet Editorship decided it was wise to push the originals back on the covers to draw attention and boost sales before reuniting the ladies with the gents. Lots of folks would know Doc, Subby and Hulk at a glance while not as many know Val and Patsy and Kyle. Putting the big 3 on covers would draw in readers who followed those heroes and looking for more of their favorite heroes. Interesting perspective. As a kid in the 70s, I never saw Nighthawk and the girls as being lesser characters, and I don't think Marvel treated them that way. They're fairly obscure now, but back then they were everywhere: Nighthawk alone guest starred in Dr. Strange, Avengers, Hulk, MTU and MTIO, and seemed to be treated as as much an integral part of the Marvel Universe then as someone like Daredevil or Luke Cage. It was after JM DeMatteis came on board that they seemed to lose interest in him and killed him off. Luckily, like most Marvel characters, he eventually got better... Lesser meaning in the sense they were never in their own series and many of the other Defender's cast that came and went were "name recognition" characters with either their own comic (Luke Cage, Son of Satan) or came with their own following (Beast, Yellowjacket, Hawkeye, Iceman, Angel, Moondragon) from being around awhile. Poor Nighthawk: always cast as a guest star but never the Leading man. |
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Post by badwolf on Nov 9, 2018 15:49:03 GMT -5
Oh, yeah. I absolutely *loved* those two issues of Marvel Premiere, and always kind of wish someone had run with the idea of Man-Wolf as an adventuring sword & planet hero. Later, I found out that those stories were preceded by bunch of stories in Creatures on the Loose (also mostly drawn by Perez) - and I'm still wondering why they haven't been collected and reprinted... Otherwise, I especially liked that run of Marvel Premiere in the forties: not just Man-Wolf, but also the introduction of Scott Lang as Ant Man, plus Seeker 3000, Tigra, Paladin, Jack of Hearts, Falcon and capped off with Alice Cooper! Like you said, fun.
#42 is still the best Tigra story I've read! |
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