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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2018 8:21:04 GMT -5
Hello zaku! Nice to have a fellow Italian here (my Dad is Italian). I read Superman titles pre-crisis, mainly Superman Family, World's Finest and DC Comics Presents and occasional issues of his solo title and Action (my Dad always gave me comic books). Very interesting information about comics in Italy and how they were published! I do recall when Supergirl died and that final panel with the odd scream. Even as a child reading that, I thought it was weird and that she had a classier send off in Crisis. None of Superman's pre crisis adventures really stand out in memory. I do remember an issue where he is in the Supermobile fighting Amazo. I also liked the Mr. and Mrs. Superman stories in Superman Family. I remember a story from World's Finest where he and Batman are at a wedding and there was a prince or somebody that resembled Bruce Wayne. I really got into Superman as I got older when Dan Jurgens was on the title and have followed it for the most part since. Perhaps the stories from the 70s and early 80s really didn't stick with me as I was so young or perhaps they were on the sillier side? Regardless, Superman is still my favorite and the Conner Kent Superboy is right up there too. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 24, 2018 9:42:24 GMT -5
As you noted, Zaku, Superman 414-415 was a pretty dreadful tale - had this been someone's introduction to Superman (and since it was not only a Crisis tie-in but a supplement/follow-up to Supergirl's death in that series, it may very well have been) I can't imagine they would have been inclined to pick up any more. #414 actually was my first issue of Superman! It wasn't because it was a Crisis tie-in, though. I had no idea what Crisis was - I was just getting into comics, and was at that point where I simply wanted to read every comic I could get my hands on. I kept reading the series through the end (#423), but the post-Crisis reboot lost me, mainly because I was just starting to figure out what DC comics were about, and then half of everything was completely different, but the other half was the same, and it varied by character, with no explanation or guideline... Crisis was so incredibly confusing, I just pretty much gave up on DC superhero books. For a series that was supposed to simply things for new readers, Crisis did exactly the opposite. The idea was fine, the execution was a disaster. For what it's worth, I did read the first couple Byrne issues but gave up pretty quickly. I later had a chance to read the whole Byrne run, and it did nothing for me. Not a fan. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2018 10:16:24 GMT -5
My Superman Musings is reading countless Action Comics, World's Finest, and Superman Family as well ... I'm quite similar to @mrjupiter in certain ways ... but, my greatest musings is in the vast cartoons -- including the Superman Fleischer Series, Adventures of Superman, and the SuperFriends. His villains of the likes of Brainiac, Lex Luthor, Toyman, Parasite, Doomsday, and host of others allowed me to explore more of the aspects of the Man of Steel. Television opens up a whole new world for me with George Reeve legendary television series, Lois and Clark - The New Adventures of Superman, Smallville, and sad to say this that I don't like Supergirl and/neither Krypton at all for personal reasons. To me, Christopher Reeve will always be my favorite Superman of all time and I'm not a fan of Brandon Routh and Henry Cavill at all. Sorry folks, the Supergirl Story of her death hit me like a ton of bricks - that happen in the Crisis and I was sad about that and death of Superman in the Doomsday Saga was sudden and left me a sorrow that took me a long time to reflect.
The following series featuring the multitudes of Supermen - the Red, the Blue, and the Electric Superman, and so forth was a grave injustice on the part of DC Comics to do this.
When he came back in full glory and all that ... I rejoiced and most of all ... I had hope that this will remains for all eternity until they made that change of which they removed the "red underpants" and all that made me even more sadder than ever.
When, I first saw this thread and I'm thinking of revisiting the various DC Comics Presents and that's one area that I don't recall anything about it and I hope to get back into those stories in the 80's when I can. I loved the artwork of John Byrne, Curt Swan, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, George Perez, Neal Adams, and Al Plastino.
To me, Superman will be always be my Number One Superhero of all time.
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Post by zaku on Sept 24, 2018 10:23:51 GMT -5
I realize now that we Italians readers were very lucky. When Italian publishers got the right to publish DC comics (after Crisis) they: - Published only Post-crisis material (the more interesting Precrisis material was reprinted later)
- Every magazine had various articles explaining to the readers what's going on
In the Italian fandom I never felt the some confusion that some American reader lamented, especially because: - The new publishers introduced to us the new DC universe "holding" our hands with guides, articles and so on
- A few years passed between the last DC comics in Italy before the Crisis and the new ones, so we had a new generation of readers who knew almost nothing about the old comics.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 24, 2018 12:11:26 GMT -5
I started reading comics around 1970 (well, remember reading them around then) and superhero stuff around 1972. What I knew was Bronze Age Superman and the odd Silver or Golden Age reprint. Superman underwent a soft reboot, with the "Kryptonite No More" storyline and there was about a year of his dealing with being de-powered, the sand creature and what the heck was going on. There were also fantastic World of Krypton back-up stories, detailing some of the history of Krypton and Jor-Ell and Lara (some of it was reworked for the later World of Krypton mini-series). After that, you had, mainly, Cary Bates and Elliott Maggin writing Superman and Action, and Bob Haney writing World's Finest (the Super Sons). Things varied from issue to issue,; but, there were a lot of fun little stories. There was usually a puzzle or gimmick involved. Maggin crafted some classics, like "Must There Be a Superman,". Curt Swan was the long time artist. He was at his best when working with Murphy Anderson (which was usually only briefly), as the "Swanderson" team. There are clunkers in there; but, there are plenty of good and many great stories. By the end of the 70s, there are fewer great, but still plenty of good, as Marty Pasko is also handling Superman (Bates was handling more Flash stories, by then). There are things like Kobra stealing the Kents from the past and holding them hostage, to force Superman to do his bidding, the light of the explosion of Krypton reaching Earth (coinciding with Brainiac returning) and the Superman vs Amazo, with the Supermobile (to help sell the toys). Len Wein came on the book and had Superman restore Kando to full size, on a new planet, only for the buildings to collapse. The Kandorians force him to leave, while they rebuild on their own. Around this time, DC decides to begin publishing mini-series, with World of Krypton launching things, reworking some old Krypton stories. That was followed by the Krypton Chronicles (which gets more into the history of the planet and the El family) and The Phantom Zone.
Lois Lane did a lot of socially relevant stories, in the early 70s, many more infamous than famous (like when she is turned into an African-American woman). Rose & Thorn dominated the book, as the more interesting back-up series, about a woman with a split personality, whose other personna is a costumed vigilante, fighting the criminal gang The 100. Kirby had taken over Jimmy Olsen, for its last hurrah. Those two titles were melded together to become Superman Family, where we got Supergirl stories, Lois, Jimmy, Clark Kent and, later, Mr & Mrs Superman, with the Earth 2 Superman & Lois. Their marriage was done as a special issue of Action Comics (#484), though the only indication that it wasn't Earth 1, on the cover, is the Daily Star building, which eluded many a reader, until they opened the book and started reading.
Around this time frame, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez did some Superman stories and a lot of covers and he really livened it up, visually. DC launched DC Comics Presents, a Superman team-up book, with JLGL on art for many issues. There were some great stories in there, including one where he is blown back in time and ends up with Sgt Rock and Easy Company, while suffering amnesia. He also battles a time-displaced Superboy, who is manipulated by a vengeful Pete Ross. There was more going on in that title than the regular Superman books. They had a great team-up of the Supermen of Earth 1 and 2, as they face the Luthor's of their respective Earths (who bicker constantly) and Ultraman, from Earth 3. They end up aided by Alexander Luthor, of Earth 3, that world's first superhero.
By the 80s, everyone is kind of worn out. Cary Bates has a few gems, like the Superman Revenge Squad storyline, and the odd Elliott Maggin piece. The Superman III back-up feature is decent. Then, plans are in development for what would become Crisis and there is talk of restarting the whole thing, coming out of it. At first, it was a celebration of 50 years of DC; but, that morphs into something bigger. The intent was everything starts over; but, they backpedaled. Superman and Wonder Woman are treading water, at that point and during Crisis, most books are kind of in a holding pattern, some expanding on stuff in the Crisis issues, others just going through the mechanics, with red skies overhead. Justice League was really floundering then and the Flash comes out of his Trial, only to be caught up in Crisis and death.
Post-Crisis, the Superman titles get the Alan Moore send-off (after two previous, excellent stories) and then the Byrne re-launch, while Wonder Woman gets the Perez treatment and Flash becomes Wally West. The Byrne stuff, looks more different than really changes things, with Krypton tweaked into being more of an alien culture, the Kents still alive, and Luthor a businessman, instead of mad scientist. It's definitely a product of its time, just as the Kryptonite No More story was a product of its. The relationship with Batman is made more tense; mutual respect; but not close friendship. Wonder Woman meets Supes, but for the first time. Justice League suffers continuity problems, mostly ignored with the new team; but, address later in the decade, with Secret Origins.
For me, I had mostly stopped reading Superman by the beginning of the 80s, with an issue or two in there. I was more interested in Titans and Legion, X-Men and Daredevil, and the early days of First Comics. Man of Steel brought me back to Superman and I stayed for a while; but, Byrne had disposed of a lot of Superman elements I always liked. The Adv. of Superman title had more meat in it than the Byrne title and felt more like my Superman than his stuff did. Once they went into the Triangle phase, I was a pretty regular reader and didn't miss Byrne's involvement. He pointed the way; but people like Roger Stern, Jerry Ordway, Dan Jurgens and Karl Kessel ran with it far longer and better than Byrne. By Doomsday, though, I was tired of it. The Clark-Lois wedding was on hold, because of the tv series and it felt like they were spinning their wheels. The rushed wedding soured me, the Death and Return left me kind of cold, apart from the World Without A Superman stuff.
Really, of the period you speak, I had Superman #400, the Einstein Connection story, and the Alan Moore stuff and that was it, vs a fairly strong run of Superman and Action, from 1978 and into 79, with a few from 80-82ish (things like the tie-in with the Titans, when the Omega Men show up).
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Post by Duragizer on Sept 24, 2018 18:01:37 GMT -5
I'm a '90s kid, so I didn't grow up with the pre-Crisis Superman. It wasn't until I was 12, when my mom bought for me some old digests from a flea market, that I got my first true exposure to the Earth-One Superman. I enjoyed reading them at the time, but they didn't leave an impact on me. Fast forward only a couple years, and the Earth-One Superman did nothing for me at all. I have since read more of his stories – even enjoyed some of them – but that's in spite of the character, not because of him. A near-omnipotent demigod who engages in mind games with his love interests while pining for a lost world he barely ever knew doesn't a compelling character make (all IMO, of course).
I may not like Byrne (either as a writer or a person), but I have to admit if it wasn't for him, I likely wouldn't have become a Superman fan (or remained one, at any rate).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2018 18:21:58 GMT -5
For me I read Superman, Action & World's Finest from the late 60's until the late 70's. DC Comics Presents & Superman Family were the only ones I read into the 80's. I also read any Superboy series that ran from the late 60's into the 80's.
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Post by zaku on Sept 25, 2018 1:50:26 GMT -5
When I was reading those comics, I realized there is an element of Clark Kent life which I glad Byrne got rid of: his job as an anchorman for WGBS News (and I'm not the only one, because I don't see a lot of people who are regretting it...). Out universe, it seems that it was just useful to bring an adult Lana Lang in the cast of Superman. In-Universe, I find it annoying and stupid. For starters, Clark Kent is the only anchorman the history of the multi-universe who was bullied in taking his job  Also this is a job (unlike a journalist for a newspaper), which forces him to be in places at fixed times, so something that interferes with his duties as Superman. I suppose that someone thought it can be good material from some will-Superman-be-able-to-save-the-world-and-to-be-in-time-for-the-6-o'clock-news scene, but after a while you wonder why he is doing this job. Like I said it interferes with his duties as Superman. And it's painfully obvious that his duties as Superman interferes with this job. It's damaging for his coworkers (there is this running "gag" of the production's people desperate because Clark Kent is late). One of his colleagues got an ulcer for this reason, for heaven's sake! A lot of people depended on him and he wasn't able to do seriously this job, so the only ethical thing to do would be to resign. I'm the only one thinking this..? |
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Post by zaku on Sept 25, 2018 2:23:55 GMT -5
And by the way, if a boss of mine asked me to do a different job, with different working hours, with more responsibilities, which I know it's a substantial source of income for him, my first question would be "And how much are you going to pay me..?". But perhaps it's just a cultural thing: I know that you American people work just for the sake of it and money is secondary...  |
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Post by comicsandwho on Sept 25, 2018 4:21:59 GMT -5
By the way I'm the only one who thinks that it's incredible morbid entering in your home with the body of your daughter saying "May I come inside a moment?", like, I don't know, I have to talk about some problems on the fence between our properties..? At least make a phone call before you come... FWIW, this was a few years after the story where Kandor was enlarged(on a world located in another dimension, which conveniently was only sometimes accessible from the Earth-1 dimension. In other words, in the days when Kandor was probably just figuring out chunky, brick-shaped mobile phones, the long-distance rates would have been a pain if Supes hd tried calling ahead. |
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Post by comicsandwho on Sept 25, 2018 4:29:02 GMT -5
And by the way, if a boss of mine asked me to do a different job, with different working hours, with more responsibilities, which I know it's a substantial source of income for him, my first question would be "And how much are you going to pay me..?". But perhaps it's just a cultural thing: I know that you American people work just for the sake of it and money is secondary... BWAH-HA HA...!  |
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Post by rberman on Sept 25, 2018 7:15:32 GMT -5
When I was reading those comics, I realized there is an element of Clark Kent life which I glad Byrne got rid of: his job as an anchorman for WGBS News (and I'm not the only one, because I don't see a lot of people who are regretting it...). Out universe, it seems that it was just useful to bring an adult Lana Lang in the cast of Superman. In-Universe, I find it annoying and stupid. For starters, Clark Kent is the only anchorman the history of the multi-universe who was bullied in taking his job Also this is a job (unlike a journalist for a newspaper), which forces him to be in places at fixed times, so something that interferes with his duties as Superman. I suppose that someone thought it can be good material from some will-Superman-be-able-to-save-the-world-and-to-be-in-time-for-the-6-o'clock-news scene, but after a while you wonder why he is doing this job. Like I said it interferes with his duties as Superman. And it's painfully obvious that his duties as Superman interferes with this job. It's damaging for his coworkers (there is this running "gag" of the production's people desperate because Clark Kent is late). One of his colleagues got an ulcer for this reason, for heaven's sake! A lot of people depended on him and he wasn't able to do seriously this job, so the only ethical thing to do would be to resign. I'm the only one thinking this..? I understand why they did it though, since television was eclipsing newspapers as a source of information, and "Got save the world in time for the evening broadcast!" gave Superman a deadline against which to operate, which is always dramatically helpful. It would make more sense to update him today as a writer for a web site. Or, as Kurt Busiek did in Superman: Secret Identity, just make him a bestselling author of nonfiction books. |
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Post by zaku on Sept 25, 2018 8:34:14 GMT -5
I understand why they did it though, since television was eclipsing newspapers as a source of information, and "Got save the world in time for the evening broadcast!" gave Superman a deadline against which to operate, which is always dramatically helpful. It would make more sense to update him today as a writer for a web site. Or, as Kurt Busiek did in Superman: Secret Identity, just make him a bestselling author of nonfiction books. Didn't he do that for a while during Morrison's run? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 25, 2018 9:46:48 GMT -5
The anchorman gimmick was an updating of things and it did lead to some interesting bits, over the years. There is an issue where Superman is inexplicably growing in size, which turns out to be a Luthor stunt, which zapped his pituitary gland. To make Luthor think it failed, Superman (with the help of the Atom) conducts an interview with Clark Kent (switching roles at high speed so he appears simultaneously on camera). It was also used for psychological reasons, as he would have to read a news item about Superman failing and not display the emotions inside related to the failure.
Like anything, it depends on how the writer uses it. Maggin and Bates both got good use out of it. Maggin used it very effectively in the two Superman novels. In the first, an alien uses it to expose Clark Kent is Superman and Superman later uses it to basically hypnotize the public into forgetting (big hole in that plan; but, it gets by). It also opened up the supporting cast and brought Lana into the present, as co-anchor. It added Steve Lombard as an antagonist to Clark, who often got his comeuppance, in a clever little way.
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Pat T
Full Member
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Post by Pat T on Sept 25, 2018 10:03:44 GMT -5
I was introduced to the comics world through Marvel. Right around the time I started reading them, Avengers was in the thick of the Celestial Madonna saga and still dealing with the mystery of Mantis's past, dating back almost to her initial appearance. In the process, I learned about the early history between the Kree & Skrulls, the Kotati, and the original Human Torch. Whether you like this era or not, there is no denying that Englehart was telling a complicated, long form story, in a way a kid my age understood what was going on. It felt like a story an adult would appreciate (to me, at least).
Over in Amazing Spider-Man, I learned through flashbacks that Spider-Man's first true love had been recently killed, and Peter was still adjusting to life without her. In a very realistic way, Peter and Mary Jane started to develop feelings for each other due to them spending more time together. Peter and Mary Jane share their first passionate kiss as Peter is boarding a flight to Paris. After some superheroing in Paris, we see Peter's thoughts regarding the change in his and MJ's relationship, his realization that he has developed deep feelings for her and his anticipation to see her when he gets home. Except when he arrives home, Aunt May and Mary Jane are both freaking out about something, which turns out to be Gwen Stacy in his apartment. This was the first time I ever heard of a clone, which we find out she is eventually, and she was created by one of Peter's professors. Turns out Professor Warren had a secret crush on Gwen, and held Spider-Man responsible for her death. As he drifted to insanity, he became a villain called the Jackal and hired the Punisher and a few other people to kill Spidey. He discovered Spidey's identity, and continued his charade of the kindly old professor that Peter trusted. He was also using blood samples to create his Gwen clone, and we find out later that he made a Peter clone too. There's a big fight, the Peter clone and Jackal "die", the new Gwen leaves, and Peter and MJ are left to pick up the pieces. This was more kid-friendly than the Avengers story, but the were twist and turns and things happened in a logical manner.
Curiosity (and maybe lack of anything else to read) led me to purchase a Superman comic from that same time period. I don't know what the exact title was, just that Superman was the featured character. Now, I was still pretty much a newbie comic reader, possibly 6 months along,
and I was totally unprepared for the difference in the Marvel books I'd been reading and this one. The characters talked in a way that was aimed for very young kids. They didn't use any prepositions in their sentences. Superman kept yelling "Great Scott" which nobody with any self-respect would ever say. There was more than one story in that comic, but I couldn't tell you what happened in either of them. The Superman book, compared to the Marvel books I was used to reading, was amateurish in every way. There was a huge, noticeable difference between the books the publishers were putting out, and DC had a much inferior product at the time.
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