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Post by zaku on Oct 6, 2018 13:14:46 GMT -5
I know people like to paint pre-crisis Luthor like some kind of tragic Shakespearean figure, but he was just a (very disturbed) criminal. I know that some authors tried to add depth to him (like in the aforementioned and excellent Einstein Connection!), but, really, there wasn't a lot to redeem. That's a good point - you can hardly fault a writer for having a bad guy do bad things. My problem was that Bates selected the one group of people Luthor would never go after and have him torment them. It's sort of the difference between having a guy who, for example, expends his energy robbing banks and occasionally attempting to kill whatever superhero gets in his way all of a sudden blowing up hospitals and orphanages - it's a cheap tactic that goes too far for certain villains. One of the problems (in my opinion) they had toward the end of the Bronze Age is they had to justify some of the more silly Silver Age premises to a modern audience. And while Alan Moore showed you can do great things with them, well, not everyone is Alan Moore. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 6, 2018 22:42:23 GMT -5
Yep, I know what did you mean  . My point is, if Luthor was ready to destroy the Earth only because he was suffering from early balding, why would he have to worry about the wellness for the inhabitants of another planet (even if he had showed some signs of affection for them)? I know people like to paint pre-crisis Luthor like some kind of tragic Shakespearean figure, but he was just a (very disturbed) criminal. I know that some authors tried to add depth to him (like in the aforementioned and excellent Einstein Connection!), but, really, there wasn't a lot to redeem. And, by the way, he wasn't neither a really good criminal. I mean, he had a red sun radiation ray, a kryptonite ray, an enlarging ray, a mind-scrambler ray, a 3d-to-2d ray and probably the biggest stash of kryptonite stash on Earth, so why Superman was still alive? I was feeling like Scott Evil while I was reading these stories: "Just. Shoot. Him!" Hence the suspension of disbelief required for the stories to even happen; anybody smart enough to invent all those things would be rolling in dough already from military contracts alone. If you want to read the best Bronze Age take on Luthor, read Elliott Maggin's two novels, released with the first two films (Last Son of Krypton and Miracle Monday). Lex is heavily featured and is a very complex character, within. Luthor's hatred of Superboy/Superman is not the loss of the hair; but, the death of a protoplasmic lifeform that Lex created, when the fire broke out in his lab. Lex will never reveal that to Superman, because he knows he will try to atone for the act and Lex would have to face forgiving him. It also gets into Lex's youth, in Smallville. His father is away most of the time and Lex lacks a real father figure. No one understands his intellect (except Clark) and he has radical mood swings, often caused after long bursts of creative output and little sleep (probably bi-polar). He is involved in petty pranks and larcenies in the course of demonstrating his brilliance and finds himself screwed out of rewards for his brilliance because of politics. As an adult, he has a string of cover identities, which he uses to hide some of his inventions and carry out altruistic acts. One is a flamboyant millionaire, who is a patron of bizarre art, which helps hide devices that Luthor has created, including an efficient spacecraft, that uses a solar sail for power. It sits outside a museum as a piece of modern sculpture, looking like a spider. One identity is a globe-trotting doctor, who is responsible for curing outbreaks of disease and other medical breakthroughs. Behind it all, Luthor has avast criminal operation that brings in a ton of cash, which Superman knows nothing about. In the first novel, he pulls off a heist of documents left by Einstein, in a vault at Princeton. They are eventually stolen by an alien, which leads to his capture, then deal with Superman to help get them back. In the second novel, Lex has found a way to cross dimensional space to escape prison; but, unwittingly unleashes a demon. He's done his research, though, and the demon has no power over him and he actually aids Superman in defeating the demon, as he wouldn't help turn over Superman's soul to it. Maggin depicts a Luthor that is so superior to everyone that he is above the law. he has an anti-authoritarian streak because he recognizes that such hierarchies rarely notice real genius and more often stifle advancement. That is is his justification for his criminal activities; thumbing his nose at authority. he has tons of legitimate and criminal money earners, which is how he finances his scientific advancements. In youth, Clark is his only real friend and Lex recognizes that he isn't as stupid as he lets on, though he does think he is a goody-goody sap. Clark is his foil; but, Clark s the only one that recognizes Lex's genius and accepts him for who he is and encourages him, trying to point him in the right direction. As an adult, Superman laments the loss to the world of what Lex could accomplish if he tried, oblivious to the fact that Lex does some of that, via his cover identities. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 6, 2018 22:55:40 GMT -5
I've read a lot of Golden Age, Silver Age and Post-Byrne Supes, but somehow the Bronze Age has largely eluded me. I think because there aren't many trade paperbacks collecting stories from the era. But also, the Bronze Age of Superman if kind of hard to define. The Golden Age is the sketchy, pulpy crusader. The Silver Age is the barrel-chested Curt Swan doing silly things in charming, harmless stories. And the post-Byrne Supes, New 52 Supes etc are all easy to define, whether you like them or not. But Bronze Age Superman seems to me almost filler, somewhat Marvel-esque in that Supes began to have more human qualities and failures, but still awkwardly trying to fit into the outsize sci-fi stuff from the Silver Age. The best demarcation for Bronze Age Superman is "Kryptonite No More." That was the Bronze Age soft reboot of Superman. As far as collections, the entire Kryptonite No More sga was collected in a hardcover and the World of Krypton back-up stories (including one with Mike Kaluta on art) was collected as Superman: The World of Krypton, with additional stories from Man of Steel and the Byrne World of Krypton mini, as well as the previous mini, in the more recent version. There is Superman in the 70s, which features stories from Superman, Action Comics, DC Comics Presents, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane. It has the classic Elliott Maggin story, "Must There Be a Superman?," the first of the Kryptonite No More stories, the debut of Kirby, in Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane's "I am Curious (Black), Superman vs Superboy (Dc Comics Presents), the marriage of Earth-2 Superman and Lois, and Superman battling Captain Thunder ( a precursor to Shazam, when Captain Marvel came to DC). Lots of good stuff, from Maggin, Bates, O'Neil, and others. DC Comics Presents is covered in two Showcase volumes, which feature some of the best stuff of the late 70s, for my money. |
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Post by zaku on Oct 7, 2018 5:18:12 GMT -5
The best demarcation for Bronze Age Superman is "Kryptonite No More." That was the Bronze Age soft reboot of Superman. I agree. Every story after that (and before the Byrne's reboot) is virtually interchangeable (except for a few continuity details): same characterization, same storytelling. Probably it was the only comics book where one can't immediately distinguish a story from 1971 from a story from 1986. The different color print method would be the biggest dead giveaway. And, by the way, why Perry White & Co. call Superman their "friend"? In every interaction that I read in these issues Superman treats them with a mix of paternalism, arrogance and a little bit of annoyance. And, except when he is saving their lives, it's not like he hangs out with them in their spare time or similar. "Perry, are you ok? Now I have to go, there is an earthquake in China". They are friends only because the writers said so. The only in-universe explanation is that if a man who could move planets says you are his friend, well, it's better you humor him. I know that their friendship is a Silver age legacy, but that was even more inexplicable then, because, well,   'nuff said. |
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Post by rberman on Oct 7, 2018 6:27:37 GMT -5
The best demarcation for Bronze Age Superman is "Kryptonite No More." That was the Bronze Age soft reboot of Superman. I agree. Every story after that (and before the Byrne's reboot) is virtually interchangeable (except for a few continuity details): same characterization, same storytelling. Probably it was the only comics book where one can't immediately distinguish a story from 1971 from a story from 1986. The different color print method would be the biggest dead giveaway. And, by the way, why Perry White & Co. call Superman their "friend"? In every interaction that I read in these issues Superman treats them with a mix of paternalism, arrogance and a little bit of annoyance. And, except when he is saving their lives, it's not like he hangs out with them in their spare time or similar. "Perry, are you ok? Now I have to go, there is an earthquake in China". They are friends only because the writers said so. The only in-universe explanation is that if a man who could move planets says you are his friend, well, it's better you humor him. I know that their friendship is a Silver age legacy, but that was even more inexplicable then, because, well, 'nuff said. I suspect that these "Why is my friend being so mean to me?" Silver Age stories reflected the influence of romance comic books, which in turn reflected the limitations of the Comics Code, hence all these stories about the emotional life of somebody whose distinguishing characteristic is his ability to inflict and endure vast amounts of physical punishment. So many plots involved seeming estrangement which was resolved by the end of the issue. Then along came Marvel Comics and showed characters who genuinely could not get along with each other. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 8, 2018 11:11:14 GMT -5
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Post by zaku on Oct 8, 2018 11:28:58 GMT -5
Interesting. What's this? |
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 8, 2018 15:34:51 GMT -5
It can't be anything other than a parody. Or is Poe's law really that fundamental?
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 8, 2018 23:06:27 GMT -5
Looks like an underground or alternative press kind of thing.
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Post by zaku on Oct 9, 2018 0:41:30 GMT -5
It can't be anything other than a parody. Or is Poe's law really that fundamental? Yes, I knows it can't be from Superman or Action, thank you. The fact that it is in b&w is a dead giveaway. My question was what was the source of this. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 9, 2018 11:24:01 GMT -5
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Post by zaku on Oct 9, 2018 17:20:32 GMT -5
Thank you. Now I'm intrigued... |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 24, 2020 11:12:01 GMT -5
I know this thread is covered with cobwebs and my question isn't quite on topic, but wasn't there a review thread somewhere on this site where someone was reviewing the Bronze Age Superman stories starting with when Julie Schwartz took over as editor from Mart Weisinger? I've been looking and haven't been able to find it.
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Post by zaku on Jun 24, 2020 11:28:08 GMT -5
I know this thread is covered with cobwebs and my question isn't quite on topic, but wasn't there a review thread somewhere on this site where someone was reviewing the Bronze Age Superman stories starting with when Julie Schwartz took over as editor from Mart Weisinger? I've been looking and haven't been able to find it. Hi! There is this one classiccomics.org/thread/91/incomplete-bronze-superman-review-thread(But if you want to share any thoughts on the subject of this thread you are welcome!) |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 24, 2020 13:43:22 GMT -5
I know this thread is covered with cobwebs and my question isn't quite on topic, but wasn't there a review thread somewhere on this site where someone was reviewing the Bronze Age Superman stories starting with when Julie Schwartz took over as editor from Mart Weisinger? I've been looking and haven't been able to find it. Hi! There is this one classiccomics.org/thread/91/incomplete-bronze-superman-review-thread(But if you want to share any thoughts on the subject of this thread you are welcome!) Thanks! And since I've started reading through Bronze Age Supermans, I may have something to add to this eventually. |
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. My point is, if Luthor was ready to destroy the Earth only because he was suffering from early balding, why would he have to worry about the wellness for the inhabitants of another planet (even if he had showed some signs of affection for them)? I know people like to paint pre-crisis Luthor like some kind of tragic Shakespearean figure, but he was just a (very disturbed) criminal. I know that some authors tried to add depth to him (like in the aforementioned and excellent Einstein Connection!), but, really, there wasn't a lot to redeem. 
