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Post by zaku on Sept 23, 2018 7:34:55 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Well, the complete title should be "Musings about Superman's stories in the couple years before Byrne's reboot (not real reviews)" but it seems you a have words' limit on the subject...  First of all, a little context: I'm Italian (as some of you have already noticed by my slaughtering of English language) and I have always read Italian editions of American superhero comics (because they are easier to get and, well, much more cheaper...). In the 80's in Italy Superman comics were translated and published by Cenisio Editore which put in a single magazine stories from Action Comics, Superman, World's Finest, DC Comics Presents and from various other sources which had Superman as main characters (here some covers).   
Editrice Cenisio went out of business in the 1984 (at this point they were publishing Superman's stories from the first semester of 1983 or so) and when few years later a new editor picked up the publishing rights they (wisely) decided to skip the unpublished period and starting from Byrne's Man Of Steel. Even when there were reprints of unpublished (or published) pre-crisis material everyone pretended that this period didn't exist. We have excellent reprints of Superman's stories from the 40's to the 70's but the only material from the pre-Byrne's 80's are the two Alan Moore's stories. So, (until recently) I have had this morbid curiosity about this obscure period in the Superman's history. I suppose I could have bought the missing issues from Ebay, but the shipping costs to Italy are quite high and sometimes you have to pay the customs duties too and, well, I wasn't so curious. But everything changed (yeeeaahh) when, some time ago, I discovered that a friend of a friend had a few issues of Superman and Action Comics from that period! You see, in Italy we have Comics Books Shops which import original American comics and there are people who prefer read them in the original language. So this guy at the time was buying these comics and later didn't bother to sell them (because I believe that in Italy there isn't a real interest for this material, and the shipping costs from Italy to other countries aren't competitive). I expressed my desire to read them and he was so kind lo lend me about two years of pre-Byrne material with some missing issues from his collection. So I finally read those stories and, well, they were (at the same time) better and worse than I imagined. Let's start with the better. The Einstein Connection! is a wonderful, touching story. Elliot S! Maggin does a great job in humanizing Lex Luthor, a character that was too often depicted as a borderline caricature. I read it twice and I'm seriously thinking to ask the guy to buy this issue. Unfortunately, this story was an oasis in a desert of mediocrity. As some of you know, Action Comics in the last years before the reboot became an anthology with 2-3 stories per issue in a Silver Age's style and... that's it. I read two issues before giving up. They haven't the historical interest and/or the wackiness of the original Silver Age stories, they aren't thoughtful pastiches à la Alan Moore or Kurt Busiek. They are barely competent stories which were a bore to read. I really didn't understand the point of it. I'm asking you people who are surely more informed than me: there were so much readers interested in this kind of format? Because they went on with it for years. And if this was the case, why they didn't maintain it after the reboot? So we have Superman, where I suppose the Superman's main continuity was taken care of. And my first impression it was amazing how much Superman (the character) looked bored. I don't know if it was the art or the writing or the authors were unconsciously talking about the thankless task of publishing something before the reboot. But really, Superman showed the same enthusiasm as a McDonald cashier who had to work when he was ill. "Yes, a space monster is trying to destroy the Earth. Whatever". To be clear, I thing that depicting a superhero tired of saving everyone one every day can be in more capable hands an interesting idea, but here it was, well, boring. And guys, when some of you say how cynical are post-crisis comics in comparison the the idealism of the pre-crisis' ones, what the heck are you talking about? Not only here Superman shows a lack of enthusiasm in doing is job, but he's a dick to everyone and full of contempt for his friends and colleagues. And he is a damn hypocrite: after refusing for decades to commit himself with Lois Lane for "her own good", now he is (as Clark Kent) in a serious relationship WITH LANA LANG??? WTF??? I don't have the strength to comment on every single comics, but there are a couple of things I want to talk about. Fist, the last two pages of Superman #414 (A Crisis Tie-In)   "Oh, I completely forgot to tell Kara's parents that their daughter died. I'm so absent-minded! Oh well, let's celebrate her life with a panel depicting a scream which is ripped from a B-grade 50s' horror comics!". And then we had this one. 
"Yes, The Maiden Of Steel has a long and glorious history spanning decades! Let's celebrate it with a story ABOUT AN HUSBAND WHO SHE TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT!" I know I can't expect a "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"-level story from Cary Bates, but this was stupid, pointless and even a little sexist. About continuity, in the last years of precrisis stories there were a couple of subplots that went nowhere: - Perry White was having some memory problem. It wasn't clear if it was a temporary thing or symptoms of some degenerative disorder.
- There was a new intern at the Daily Planet (Justin Moore) who was continuously hitting on Lois lane (who wasn't reciprocating) and creepily stalking her. But then I realized that, considering they were in the 80's and Superman's authors were quite conservative, this perhaps was considered a good thing. Which better way to the heart of a woman than stalking her as a maniac?
So... that's it. There were a couple of excellent good story here and there, but the general impression is they were just buying time before the reboot. It was quite underwhelming. In the same years we had Perez's Titans, Simmons' Thor, Claremoint/Byrne's X-Men, Miller's Daredevil but Superman's authors were still doing stories which were, from a writing and artistic point of view, virtually interchangeable with any other post- Sand Superman Saga story. Nothing changed in 15 years. Now, I know there a lot of people who are saying how pre-reboot Superman was all rainbows and unicorns and Byrne was a monster who ruined everything. But now I think they speak through rose-tinted glasses because from just from a visual storytelling point of view, Byrne was light-years ahead of his predecessors. His Superman comics were the really first modern Superman comics. Everything before that seems so incredible dated in hindsight (please note I'm talking from a technical point of view, I don't want to engage myself here in some interminable discussion about Superboy exclusion or other continuity minutiae). Ok, I hope I didn't bore you  . If you have some question on any particular issue I'm here! (hoping that I read it...) |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 23, 2018 8:13:17 GMT -5
My pre-Crisis Superman days are more before this period. I read Superman and Action, sporadically (I read most comics, sporadically, due to access) and Cary Bates and Elliott S! Maggin turned out many a great story. Through the late 70s, they presented a more mature Superman, with less dickish behavior and some actual romance, with Lois. Maggin was quite adept at handling the supporting cast and creating neat little tales, while Bates explored elements of Superman's past, come back to haunt or plague him. By the early 80s, the only Superman book I was reading with consistency was DC Comics Presents, the team-up book, with Superman and a guest star. It helped that Jose Luis Garcia Lopez (Praise Be His Name) was the artist for the early issues. I still read the occasional Superman, Action, or World's Finest and there were some good stories, in that time; just not a ton of memorable ones.
Elliott Maggin wrote the best Superman of the Bronze Age, particularly the novel Last Son of Krypton, which was released to coincide with the first Christopher Reeve film. It fleshes out Luthor, greatly (Maggin wrote the best Luthor, ever) and also humanizes Superman, made his relationship with the Kents that much stronger, and treated the supporting cast like real people. In short, many of the things that he couldn't do in the comics. Quite frankly, I think the editors (Julie Schwartz et al) were holding the title back. Cary Bates crafted some fine tales into the early 80s; but, Maggin grew burnt out. I met Mike Gold and talked to him for a bit and I had remarked about Maggin's Superman novels to another fan and Gold piped up that he was the one who fired Maggin, from DC. He said Maggin stopped turning in work;so, he decided to sever their relationship, since Maggin didn't seem to want to work there (Maggin later sucker-punched him, at a convention; so, he didn't quite take it as a blessing). I think that kind of summed things up.
When you look at the Byrne revamp, there isn't anything too radical; but, byrne was given a freedom that Bates and Maggin had been denied, to the point that the wrote themselves out of ideas. They couldn't significantly alter the character; so, they were stuck in a cycle of stories. byrne got to reimagine everything. However, he starts running out of ideas fairly quickly and the bloom starts coming off the rose. he gripes about DC editorial, these days; but, he doesn't seem to accept any blame for anything he does that goes south. There were better Superman stories coming from people like Roger Stern and Jerry Ordway was crafting a great run, on Adv. of Superman. Before that, though, Byrne was allowed to make changes to the whole thing and it had the advantage of being fresh, while bates and Maggin were stuck with the editorial status quo: create the illusion of change; but don't alter anything. We make our money from licensing the guy.
You also have to remember that the Direct Market as still rather new and undeveloped and sales mostly came from newsstands, with more impulse buys involved. A large share of the market bought comics on impulse and couldn't always count on finding the next issue at the same stand. Superman reflected that. Most stories were single issue tales, with the odd two-parter. There is still some surprisingly good material into 1981/82; but, further into the decade, it seems that no one wanted to rock the boat, leading into the DC 50th Anniversary and once the Byrne deal had been cut. many who had already been working on Superman were rather miffed about Byrne being afforded freedom that they had been consistently denied.
So, yeah, the period you discuss is rather fallow, with the Maggin Luthor/Einstein tale (a carryover from ideas from the novels) is one of the rare gems. Go back to 1978-80 and you will find more consistent material. Go back further and you will find still more. In the early to mid-70s, Bates and Maggin were young and hungry and they turned out many a great tale, in both Superman and Action.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 23, 2018 8:20:06 GMT -5
PS Crisis is a perfect example. Superman is a major factor in Crisis itself; but, in his own book, they are marking time, as byrne had been signed and announced. They knew it was all going to change, anyway. A good editor would have said "Go nuts," since it wouldn't matter; but, DC management just said maintain the status quo, until the launch of Man of Steel. Wonder Woman was going through the same thing. Really, the Flash was the only one trying to do anything different, in that period. The Trial of the Flash dragged on and on; but, it was something different. Not everyone had the luxury of Wolfman and Perez, on New Teen Titans, to do something more radical, with characters who had been afterthoughts, more often than not. They got to let their imagination run wild and it paid off.
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Post by zaku on Sept 23, 2018 10:32:38 GMT -5
First of all, thank you codystarbuck for you comments and insights. So, yeah, the period you discuss is rather fallow, with the Maggin Luthor/Einstein tale (a carryover from ideas from the novels) is one of the rare gems. Go back to 1978-80 and you will find more consistent material. Go back further and you will find still more. In the early to mid-70s, Bates and Maggin were young and hungry and they turned out many a great tale, in both Superman and Action. Oh, yes, you are absolutely right. I still have a lot of this stories (in Italian) somewhere in the basement. But, like I said, I was curious about this particular period in Superman history which seems nobody wants to even admit that it exists...  You also have to remember that the Direct Market as still rather new and undeveloped and sales mostly came from newsstands, with more impulse buys involved. A large share of the market bought comics on impulse and couldn't always count on finding the next issue at the same stand. Superman reflected that. Most stories were single issue tales, with the odd two-parter. There is still some surprisingly good material into 1981/82; but, further into the decade, it seems that no one wanted to rock the boat, leading into the DC 50th Anniversary and once the Byrne deal had been cut. many who had already been working on Superman were rather miffed about Byrne being afforded freedom that they had been consistently denied. Oh yes, this is clear. But even considering which were their limitations, they still blew it. A good example it's the story in Superman #415. They had a great occasion to celebrate the life of Supergirl (without rocking anything). They had dozens of ways to do it, like, I don't know, a Kryptonian funeral where everyone said what great hero she was (something like Elegy by Claremont/Byrne), so, just the comic books equivalent of a clip show. And what they did? The Story of The Unknown Supergirl's Husband From Outer Space. Really guys? Really? And I don't understand why they were still developing some subplots, like Perry White's memory problems, Clark Kent's relationship with Lana and The Adventures of Justin Moore, The Creepy Stalker Intern when they knew they had no change to resolve them. And I can't really figure out what was the point of Action Comics with its faux Silver Age stories. Really guys, Silver Age ended at least fifteen years before so I suppose readers' taste changed a little bit from then, right..? |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 23, 2018 11:54:23 GMT -5
So, (until recently) I have had this morbid curiosity about this obscure period in the Superman's history. I suppose I could have bought the missing issues from Ebay, but the shipping costs to Italy are quite high and sometimes you have to pay the customs duties too and, well, I wasn't so curious. Oh, man. As a USian now living across the Adriatic from you in Croatia, all I can say is: I hear you, brother. And how.
Otherwise, I can't participate too much in this conversation, as I hardly ever read Action or Superman in the years immediately preceding Crisis. In fact, most of my issues of those two series in my collection at the time came from the Whitman 3-pack bags from the late 1970s. I found those stories all right, but nothing special (and unlike a lot of members of this board, I'm not the biggest fan of Curt Swan's art).
Like codystarbuck, the only regular Superman title I was reading in that period with any regularity was DC Comics Presents; I had been a pretty regular reader of World's Finest as well when it was still a dollar comic, but I dropped it soon after it went to the standard 20+ page format - the stories seemed to get pretty forgettable. I also agree with cody about the stories by Maggin and Bates from the earlier 1970s being better. I had a few of those issues, and some of those stories were reprinted in the digests of the late '70s/early '80s.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 23, 2018 12:03:12 GMT -5
The frustrating thing about the 1980's Bronze Age Superman is that if you pick up about ten issues from this period, nine will be mediocre or forgettable, but the tenth will be a masterpiece. As you noted, Zaku, Superman 414-415 was a pretty dreadful tale - had this been someone's introduction to Superman (and since it was not only a Crisis tie-in but a supplement/follow-up to Supergirl's death in that series, it may very well have been) I can't imagine they would have been inclined to pick up any more. And what issue had to follow up this tale of Supergirl's secret husband - yeah, you guessed it Superman 416's classic The Einstein Connection.
Some other gems from the 80's:
1. Action Comics 507-508 "The Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent" (1980). The death of Superman's father is erased from the history books for 72 hours. For three days, Pa Kent is not only alive in the here and now, but has always been there as his son grew up from boyhood and into the Superman we all love and cherish. The only person who remembers that he should be dead is Superman himself, but after accepting that this is Jonathan Kent in the flesh he is overjoyed. However, there's a catch - only his father knows that this situation is temporary. One of the greatest and most powerful comic book stories of all time.
2. DC Comics 50 "When You Wish Upon a Planetoid" (1982). Superman and Clark Kent are split into the separate selves after a machine which can make wishes come true destroys a planet in the future and finds refuge in our time. Tapping into Superman's subconscious desire that he could be Superman all the time to right all the wrongs there are out there, the machine makes it so. Without his Clark Kent identity to tether him to humanity, Superman becomes cold and distant. Without his Superman identity and his need to pretend to be meek and mild mannered, Clark Kent becomes a fully fleshed out human being and though it sounds absurd and impossible, figures out that up until recently, he and Superman were once the same man and Superman, has been beginning to make mistakes. Will he even listen to Kent?
3. Superman Annual 9 "Villain! Villain! Who's Got the Villain?" (1983). Just a fun Maggin penned and Alex Toth pencilled tale involving Lex Luthor convincing the public that he's been imprisoned by his twin brother for years and blamed for his crimes. Who is Luthor's twin brother? Superman transformed by Red Kryptonite. Thankfully, Batman's around to lend a hand. A really fun tale that reads like a modern story with the best sensibilities of the Silver Age. There's even a nice little epilogue where a street vendor tries to charge Clark Kent $20 for a hot dog. When a child falls from a fire escape however as this goes on, the vendor has to rip off his smock to save him. Unfortunately, doing so results in the public seeing the man's Batman disguise underneath and a grouchy Batman later gripes to Superman that now the public knows that the grim Dark Knight has a sense of humour and isn't above pulling the occasional prank. It's not really pertinent to the main story, but gives you a nice indication of how the tale can go from serious to whimsical and back at the hands of Maggin and Toth.
4. Superman 400 "The Living Legends of Superman" (1984). An anthology of tales wrapped around the idea of Superman as a legendary, sometimes even mythical, figure. Although this one may arguably be best known for the fun Frank Miller Superman story (yes, I said "fun and Frank and Miller and Superman") in which 21st century scientists discover old episodes of the George Reeves TV series thereby uncovering all of Superman's secrets to a skeptical crowd, it's the tale in which a citizen of an Orwellian/state run future Metropolis discovers and tries on a strange costume with a strange stylized 'S' emblazoned its chest and feels emboldened to stand up to the armed soldiers who now keep the denizens of Metropolis in line that will forever stay with me. You see, without knowing anything about this costume or how it manages to withstand the blasts fired at his chest when he wears it, he can't help but feel as if he has an obligation to stand up for the oppressed little guy when he sees what it can do. The soldiers quickly figure out that a head shot should take this strange visitor out and succeed in killing him, but not before others see what the suit can do and being themselves inspired by the hope it presents. One by one, each of them tries on the suit, strikes a blow against their captors, gets shot in the head, and then another tries on the suit...
5. Superman 416 "The Einstein Connection" (1985). Already mentioned but I wanted to also point out that this issue introduced Maggin's notion that eventually, Luthor would reform and use his genius for good through LexCorp. We also get to visit Superman at age 130 as he sends a message to his 29 year old self while entertaining questions from a shocked audience as to who he was, what's he been doing in the decades since he left Earth, what happened to Luthor, and why it's so important that he send a brief message to his younger self at this point in time. I would have loved to have seen Maggin develop his ideas further, but alas...
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Post by zaku on Sept 23, 2018 12:32:23 GMT -5
The frustrating thing about the 1980's Bronze Age Superman is that if you pick up about ten issues from this period, nine will be mediocre or forgettable, but the tenth will be a masterpiece. As you noted, Zaku, Superman 414-415 was a pretty dreadful tale - had this been someone's introduction to Superman (and since it was not only a Crisis tie-in but a supplement/follow-up to Supergirl's death in that series, it may very well have been) I can't imagine they would have been inclined to pick up any more. And what issue had to follow up this tale of Supergirl's secret husband - yeah, you guessed it Superman 416's classic The Einstein Connection. Some other gems from the 80's: 1. Action Comics 507-508 " The Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent" (1980). The death of Superman's father is erased from the history books for 72 hours. For three days, Pa Kent is not only alive in the here and now, but has always been there as his son grew up from boyhood and into the Superman we all love and cherish. The only person who remembers that he should be dead is Superman himself, but after accepting that this is Jonathan Kent in the flesh he is overjoyed. However, there's a catch - only his father knows that this situation is temporary. One of the greatest and most powerful comic book stories of all time. 2. DC Comics 50 " When You Wish Upon a Planetoid" (1982). Superman and Clark Kent are split into the separate selves after a machine which can make wishes come true destroys a planet in the future and finds refuge in our time. Tapping into Superman's subconscious desire that he could be Superman all the time to right all the wrongs there are out there, the machine makes it so. Without his Clark Kent identity to tether him to humanity, Superman becomes cold and distant. Without his Superman identity and his need to pretend to be meek and mild mannered, Clark Kent becomes a fully fleshed out human being and though it sounds absurd and impossible, figures out that up until recently, he and Superman were once the same man and Superman, has been beginning to make mistakes. Will he even listen to Kent? 3. Superman Annual 9 " Villain! Villain! Who's Got the Villain?" (1983). Just a fun Maggin penned and Alex Toth pencilled tale involving Lex Luthor convincing the public that he's been imprisoned by his twin brother for years and blamed for his crimes. Who is Luthor's twin brother? Superman transformed by Red Kryptonite. Thankfully, Batman's around to lend a hand. A really fun tale that reads like a modern story with the best sensibilities of the Silver Age. There's even a nice little epilogue where a street vendor tries to charge Clark Kent $20 for a hot dog. When a child falls from a fire escape however as this goes on, the vendor has to rip off his smock to save him. Unfortunately, doing so results in the public seeing the man's Batman disguise underneath and a grouchy Batman later gripes to Superman that now the public knows that the grim Dark Knight has a sense of humour and isn't above pulling the occasional prank. It's not really pertinent to the main story, but gives you a nice indication of how the tale can go from serious to whimsical and back at the hands of Maggin and Toth. 4. Superman 400 " The Living Legends of Superman" (1984). An anthology of tales wrapped around the idea of Superman as a legendary, sometimes even mythical, figure. Although this one may arguably be best known for the fun Frank Miller Superman story (yes, I said "fun and Frank and Miller and Superman") in which 21st century scientists discover old episodes of the George Reeves TV series thereby uncovering all of Superman's secrets to a skeptical crowd, it's the tale in which a citizen of an Orwellian/state run future Metropolis discovers and tries on a strange costume with a strange stylized 'S' emblazoned its chest and feels emboldened to stand up to the armed soldiers who now keep the denizens of Metropolis in line that will forever stay with me. You see, without knowing anything about this costume or how it manages to withstand the blasts fired at his chest when he wears it, he can't help but feel as if he has an obligation to stand up for the oppressed little guy when he sees what it can do. The soldiers quickly figure out that a head shot should take this strange visitor out and succeed in killing him, but not before others see what the suit can do and being themselves inspired by the hope it presents. One by one, each of them tries on the suit, strikes a blow against their captors, gets shot in the head, and then another tries on the suit... 5. Superman 416 " The Einstein Connection" (1985). Already mentioned but I wanted to also point out that this issue introduced Maggin's notion that eventually, Luthor would reform and use his genius for good through LexCorp. We also get to visit Superman at age 130 as he sends a message to his 29 year old self while entertaining questions from a shocked audience as to who he was, what's he been doing in the decades since he left Earth, what happened to Luthor, and why it's so important that he send a brief message to his younger self at this point in time. I would have loved to have seen Maggin develop his ideas further, but alas... All these (excellent) stories are before the period I was considering (with the notable exception of The Einstein Connection) , which was when (I suppose) the authors found that they had to start looking for an another job...  I don't know the exact timetable here. When did they exactly decide to reboot Superman? |
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Post by Duragizer on Sept 23, 2018 16:18:56 GMT -5
"Oh, I completely forgot to tell Kara's parents that their daughter died. I'm so absent-minded! Oh well, let's celebrate her life with a panel depicting a scream which is ripped from a B-grade 50s' horror comics!". That's quite the unintentionally funny panel. I haven't read much of Cary Bates' work, so I won't make a judgement on his writing as a whole, but I did read the Supergirl series he worked on from the '70s; it's awful, cliched soap opera written by a man who clearly doesn't understand of how women actually think or behave. I'm not at all surprised this story is so poor. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 23, 2018 16:56:15 GMT -5
I don't know the exact timetable here. When did they exactly decide to reboot Superman? I can't provide anything precise, but I did recently read an interview in Michael Eury's The Krypton Companion with Steve Gerber asking him about his Frank Miller's revamp proposal from 1985. Although Crisis dates as far back as 1980 I believe (but held off until 1985 to mark DC's 50th anniversary), I don't know when DC started to think specifically about replacing Superman. The last major change/addition to the series prior to and not involving Crisis would likely have been the Luthor/Brainiac revamps in 1983. If we assume that DC wouldn't have bothered updating something that would soon be out of date, then I suspect the decision was made sometime around 1984/85. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 23, 2018 17:26:48 GMT -5
I haven't read much of Cary Bates' work, so I won't make a judgement on his writing as a whole, but I did read the Supergirl series he worked on from the '70s; it's awful, cliched soap opera written by a man who clearly doesn't understand of how women actually think or behave. I'm not at all surprised this story is so poor. Cary Bates was a teen-aged fan whose letters often appeared in the Superman columns (and probably elsewhere I imagine) and in this capacity he even sent in a drawing which DC adapted into a classic cover. Superman 167 is of course by Curt Swan, but it was based upon whatever Bates submitted.  I know that Bates sent in about 20 cover ideas as a kid and I don't know if the above was his first to make it, but it's hard not to be impressed to know that this image came from a 15 year old kid. Bates wrote a lot of great Superman tales while giving us Steve Lombard, Vartox, Terra-Man, the Super-Mobile in the 70's, but when I think of his 80's output I keep turning to his Luthor revamp (Action 544) which essentially reduced the character to a monster willing to turn to acts of genocide so as to stay relevant. I still think he did some great work, but it does seem that by 1983 at least, no one seemed to really know how to write stories for a character who should have been fairly easy to write for (I say this as someone who doesn't believe that a character with the powers of God is hard to write for). Incidentally, Bates also submitted a proposal for the Superman revamp in 1985 and said that at that time, he was unaware that Superman's continuity would be changing. Of course, it could be that DC had decided this without publicizing that detail, but since I find it doubtful that DC would be asking for proposals without mentioning the catch that Superman's backstory would have to go to prospective writers, it does suggest that it wasn't until Superman's final full year that DC decided to start over. |
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Post by zaku on Sept 23, 2018 17:35:14 GMT -5
"Oh, I completely forgot to tell Kara's parents that their daughter died. I'm so absent-minded! Oh well, let's celebrate her life with a panel depicting a scream which is ripped from a B-grade 50s' horror comics!". That's quite the unintentionally funny panel. Yep. Let's compare it with this page from Crisis where Superman is mourning Kara.  I know that depicting real human pain is difficult and a lot of people weren't happy with the death of Supergirl, but at least Marv Wolfman tried to do something meaningful with it I haven't read much of Cary Bates' work, so I won't make a judgement on his writing as a whole, but I did read the Supergirl series he worked on from the '70s; it's awful, cliched soap opera written by a man who clearly doesn't understand of how women actually think or behave. I'm not at all surprised this story is so poor. I never read his work on Supergirl, and now I will never, never do it. Thank you. |
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Post by zaku on Sept 23, 2018 17:39:46 GMT -5
I don't know the exact timetable here. When did they exactly decide to reboot Superman? I can't provide anything precise, but I did recently read an interview in Michael Eury's The Krypton Companion with Steve Gerber asking him about his Frank Miller's revamp proposal from 1985. Although Crisis dates as far back as 1980 I believe (but held off until 1985 to mark DC's 50th anniversary), I don't know when DC started to think specifically about replacing Superman. The last major change/addition to the series prior to and not involving Crisis would likely have been the Luthor/Brainiac revamps in 1983. If we assume that DC wouldn't have bothered updating something that would soon be out of date, then I suspect the decision was made sometime around 1984/85. The chronology seems right, because, like I said, why did they bother with some subplots if they knew they were revamping Superman soon? And now I'm very curious to know what was the deal with Perry White's memory problems... |
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Post by zaku on Sept 24, 2018 3:32:02 GMT -5
By the way I'm the only one who thinks that it's incredible morbid entering in your home with the body of your daughter saying "May I come inside a moment?", like, I don't know, I have to talk about some problems on the fence between our properties..?
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 24, 2018 6:26:59 GMT -5
By the way I'm the only one who thinks that it's incredible morbid entering in your home with the body of your daughter saying "May I come inside a moment?", like, I don't know, I have to talk about some problems on the fence between our properties..? At least make a phone call before you come... |
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Post by brutalis on Sept 24, 2018 8:09:08 GMT -5
My Superman musings: never collected or read much of Superman in my early youthful days other than when I visited a cousin who wasn't a cousin (my dad's best friend growing up was Uncle Jim so his kids were "family" as well) and his uncle was in art school and he collected Superman comics and passed them all on to my "cousin" when he moved back east. So when visiting I would read those and I grew to adore those "older" issues from the likes of Plastino, Boring and Swan.
Once I entered high school and was buying/collecting comics on a very regular basis Superman and Action comics from 1975 through the Byrne reboot were all part of my monthly purchases. These were good days for Clark as most of the comic had Swan art along with Kane, Staton, Novick, Schaffengerger along with Andru covers. And writing from the likes of Bates, Pasko, Wolfman, Maggin, Wein, Conway and such.
While lots of these weren't overly memorable they were still fun comics mostly aimed towards kids. And the memories of these buys are how I remember Superman being "Super" at the time. He was still the Man of Steel I knew from television cartoons and movies fighting for Truth, Justice and the American way. Once DC let Byrne do his thing, Superman became much different in story and art.
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. If you have some question on any particular issue I'm here! (hoping that I read it...)
