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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 22, 2019 15:44:38 GMT -5
Most things fail. I'm more curious why the Defenders actually worked? (Maybe people like the Hulk, maybe it was launched in a climate where there was strong demand for more Marvel superhero product - while the Champions was one more book on an overcrowded spinner rack?)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 15:49:39 GMT -5
I don't have much to add, but yeah, from memory, no real rationale for the team as a whole or for those particular characters getting together. I liked it for the Byrne artwork (though slightly marred by unsympathetic inking, to my eyes) and because I always liked seeing the Black Widow and Hercules, two characters not appearing anywhere else regularly at the time. I didn't like Ghost Rider being on the team: didn't like the character much in the first place and always preferred the supernatural characters kept to their own world and didn't mix with superheroes too much. It strikes me that the "created by committee" problem makes the Champions resemble today's Marvel and DC comics more than most 70s series I can think of. In a slightly different way, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel as well remind me of the kind of thing that happens commonly today and contributed significantly to my growing disappointment and disinterest in Marvel's product in the late 70s to early 80s. Just my view, but with some modern Avengers tales, the roster doesn't feel organic. It sometimes feels like someone said, "Who's the most popular right now? Oh, Deadpool. Yeah, put him on the team. And who else?..." On one level, that isn't wrong. Comics are a business after all. And if Deadpool fans will flock to see him on an Avengers team, and increase sales of Avengers books, then more power to them. But it doesn't feel organic. I much prefer a roster to have some internal logic so that instead of a roster being comprised of "flavour of the month", it is comprised of characters who appear to have a purpose and reason to be on the team. What I have written looks like gibberish at this end, so I hope someone understood it.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 15:51:37 GMT -5
Most things fail. I'm more curious why the Defenders actually worked? (Maybe people like the Hulk, maybe it was launched in a climate where there was strong demand for more Marvel superhero product - while the Champions was one more book on an overcrowded spinner rack?) For me, I liked how the tales I read were mostly supernatural. It had a USP. As a non-team/loose alliance, battling mystical foes, it didn't just feel like Avengers-lite or whatever. And I thought Subby, Strange, Surfer and Hulk were a good mix. |
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Post by berkley on Feb 22, 2019 15:57:08 GMT -5
Makes sense to me. Defintely one of the many downsides to having pretty much every Marvel chartacter in the MU on one of a kajillion ever-changing Avengers teams. It makes the whole exercise feel meaningless.
I'd also add that even though I was just saying in another thread that I didn't think the early X-Men were all that bad, Angel and Iceman were never two of the most compelling superheroes around: Angel's only power seemed to be flight and only distinguishing characteristic his wings - that's not a lot to work with in a genre where all kinds of characters can fly plus do tons of other stuff as well. And Iceman, for me, just didn't make for a cool visual, in contrast to hi opposite number, the Human Torch.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 22, 2019 15:57:24 GMT -5
Most things fail. I'm more curious why the Defenders actually worked? (Maybe people like the Hulk, maybe it was launched in a climate where there was strong demand for more Marvel superhero product - while the Champions was one more book on an overcrowded spinner rack?) The Champions were part of an explosion of super-team titles at both Marvel and DC in 1975-76, out of which only the X-Men and Legion of Super-Heroes revivals lasted longer than 20 issues. The FF, Avengers, and Defenders, as well a the JLA, laid claim to each company's big guns, leaving Golden Age leftovers. second-string heroes, villains, and derivative new characters to populate all those other teams. It didn't help that most of these books were prone to constant editorial and creative turnover, resulting in confusing and contradictory storylines executed in widely varying degrees of competence. There were gems amidst the dross--the JSA revival, Gerber's Guardians of the Galaxy, and others--but most of this stuff is highly forgettable at best.
Of course, I collect it anyway.
Cei-U! I summon the team-up fever!
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 22, 2019 16:24:20 GMT -5
Most things fail. I'm more curious why the Defenders actually worked? (Maybe people like the Hulk, maybe it was launched in a climate where there was strong demand for more Marvel superhero product - while the Champions was one more book on an overcrowded spinner rack?) The Champions were part of an explosion of super-team titles at both Marvel and DC in 1975-76, out of which only the X-Men and Legion of Super-Heroes revivals lasted longer than 20 issues. The FF, Avengers, and Defenders, as well a the JLA, laid claim to each company's big guns, leaving Golden Age leftovers. second-string heroes, villains, and derivative new characters to populate all those other teams. It didn't help that most of these books were prone to constant editorial and creative turnover, resulting in confusing and contradictory storylines executed in widely varying degrees of competence. There were gems amidst the dross--the JSA revival, Gerber's Guardians of the Galaxy, and others--but most of this stuff is highly forgettable at best.
Of course, I collect it anyway.
Cei-U! I summon the team-up fever!
Yeah, I was thinking how many Marvel team series were launched about this time. I forgot about Guardians! So Champions, X-men revival, GotG, Invaders. Legion of Monsters for one issue. At DC Legion, All Star Squadron, Secret Society of Super-Villains, Titans revival... was there a Challengers revival in there? Super-Team Family (which I love) if that counts. I'm probably missing some. Re: The Defenders The thing is, except for the Hulk, I don't really see it anchored by big guns. Doctor Strange and the Surfer didn't have their own books when the series was launched and the Sub-Mariner was sputtering towards cancellation. Plus the whole concept was so damn weird! I love the Defenders but I'm shocked that it succeeded so wildly. |
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Post by String on Feb 22, 2019 16:49:01 GMT -5
I don't have much to add, but yeah, from memory, no real rationale for the team as a whole or for those particular characters getting together. I liked it for the Byrne artwork (though slightly marred by unsympathetic inking, to my eyes) and because I always liked seeing the Black Widow and Hercules, two characters not appearing anywhere else regularly at the time. I didn't like Ghost Rider being on the team: didn't like the character much in the first place and always preferred the supernatural characters kept to their own world and didn't mix with superheroes too much. It strikes me that the "created by committee" problem makes the Champions resemble today's Marvel and DC comics more than most 70s series I can think of. In a slightly different way, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel as well remind me of the kind of thing that happens commonly today and contributed significantly to my growing disappointment and disinterest in Marvel's product in the late 70s to early 80s. On one level, that isn't wrong. Comics are a business after all. And if Deadpool fans will flock to see him on an Avengers team, and increase sales of Avengers books, then more power to them. But it doesn't feel organic. I much prefer a roster to have some internal logic so that instead of a roster being comprised of "flavour of the month", it is comprised of characters who appear to have a purpose and reason to be on the team. What I have written looks like gibberish at this end, so I hope someone understood it. The one and only reason why Wolverine became an Avenger. The in-story reason for his addition to the team is the biggest pile of rubbish that I've ever heard. It's one thing when Logan parades through a myriad number of X-titles, it's quite another when he starts appearing in Avengers title simply to be a cash cow. At least Spider-Man has flirted with the idea of joining before so his addition actually makes sense to me. Though I was aware of them, I've never read the original Champions (and frankly, after reading the reviews here, it sounds like I'd be better off saving my money for other collectibles). The only aspect that would draw me to read them is Ghost Rider (whom I love) and I think it's quite telling when he is the only member to have his own title at that time. Angel and Iceman together doesn't sound like enough to garner attention or even sales. Add Beast to that mix and you may have something. For I've always thought of them best when they are a trio (for I consider Scott and Jean a pairing unto themselves) |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 22, 2019 17:12:00 GMT -5
Most things fail. I'm more curious why the Defenders actually worked? (Maybe people like the Hulk, maybe it was launched in a climate where there was strong demand for more Marvel superhero product - while the Champions was one more book on an overcrowded spinner rack?) There are no sure things but I think the Defenders book benefited from having the big three and being joined by fan favorite Silver Surfer early on. Remember also, that they were thrown into a big popular crossover with the Avengers starting with issue # 8 that still rates as one of the most popular in Comic history. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 22, 2019 17:19:13 GMT -5
Just my view, but with some modern Avengers tales, the roster doesn't feel organic. It sometimes feels like someone said, "Who's the most popular right now? Oh, Deadpool. Yeah, put him on the team. And who else?..." On one level, that isn't wrong. Comics are a business after all. And if Deadpool fans will flock to see him on an Avengers team, and increase sales of Avengers books, then more power to them. But it doesn't feel organic. I much prefer a roster to have some internal logic so that instead of a roster being comprised of "flavour of the month", it is comprised of characters who appear to have a purpose and reason to be on the team. What I have written looks like gibberish at this end, so I hope someone understood it. The one and only reason why Wolverine became an Avenger. The in-story reason for his addition to the team is the biggest pile of rubbish that I've ever heard. It's one thing when Logan parades through a myriad number of X-titles, it's quite another when he starts appearing in Avengers title simply to be a cash cow. At least Spider-Man has flirted with the idea of joining before so his addition actually makes sense to me. Though I was aware of them, I've never read the original Champions (and frankly, after reading the reviews here, it sounds like I'd be better off saving my money for other collectibles). The only aspect that would draw me to read them is Ghost Rider (whom I love) and I think it's quite telling when he is the only member to have his own title at that time. Angel and Iceman together doesn't sound like enough to garner attention or even sales. Add Beast to that mix and you may have something. For I've always thought of them best when they are a trio (for I consider Scott and Jean a pairing unto themselves) Ha, it's no more rubbish than the resurrection of Hal Jordan, Barry Allen or any other "reason" to get a story from point A to point B. I remember there being a reason why Hank Pym could never be Giant Man again ( the growing in size was dangerous to his health), but along comes Kurt Busiek's Avengers run and he's Goliath again. Nary an explanation. These are comic books, I just go with the flow. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 22, 2019 23:25:22 GMT -5
I remember being annoyed by that with Busiek.. probably the only thing on his excellent run that did so... I think there was a throw away 'I figured it out' line, but nothing more.
As far as Champions go, I've only read when they crossed over with Iron Man in an annual.. it's just such a random set of characters.
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Post by berkley on Feb 23, 2019 0:01:51 GMT -5
Maybe the biggest thing the Defenders had going for it was being written by two of Marvel's best, most innovative and original writers, first Englehart, then Gerber. The Defenders-Avengers War crossover was a new idea at the time and gave the Defenders equal billing with Marvel's flagship superhero team. Then Gerber came along and made it something really special, possibly the most creative takes on superheroes before the advent of Alan Moore in the 80s. And then his run was followed by a very interesting stint by Kraft.
So maybe it wasn't as much to do with the series or team concept as with having the good luck of those three writers being assigned to the series in close succession.
Perhaps Len Wein's run should be added to that mix as well? I haven't read those issues so can't say one way or the other.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Feb 23, 2019 3:50:27 GMT -5
You may have a point about the writing saving Defenders. For me, the best, definitive run on the title basically encompasses its first 50 issues, plus the associated giant-sizes and annual - and, obviously, their introduction in Marvel Feature #s 1-3. So everything written by Thomas, Englehart, Wein, Gerber and Kraft (and Slifer). And within that, Gerber's run forms the heart. |
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 23, 2019 4:48:55 GMT -5
For me, there are two big problems with Champions that doomed it. First, as has already been discussed, there was literally no point to the series. it's not what the writer wanted to do. It was just a random group of characters thrown together for marketing purposes. "Hey, add this guy, and that guy, maybe i will sell better." There's literally no concept behind the book, it just exists because they wanted another book to exist. That simply is never going to work. Compare that to Batman and the Outsiders, where Batman formed a team of dissimilar people out of legitimate necessity-- a purpose born of conflict (with the JLA) that felt real, not because a publisher simply wanted to launch another group title for no apparent reason, other than using it as a catch-all for characters who were never headlining their own titles, or barely had much reason to appear anywhere else. Yes. All the reason in the world why certain characters are always best as a soo act, and if the staff cannot find anything for him to do, or there's a lack of reader interest, simply have the characters take some sort of in-universe vacation / period or self-reflection, etc., rather than dragging him from one meaningless appearance (or bad group idea) to another. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 8:31:27 GMT -5
I've believe that Crimebuster wrote this and this piece is exactly why Champions did not work very successfully and I felt it was not cohesive enough to make this team work together. When he said that he'll make a fine Defender (Ghost Rider) ... that's makes sense to me. |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 23, 2019 12:37:09 GMT -5
They felt like the West Coast Avengers before there was a West Coast Avengers to me, but it kind of felt like the Defenders with its funky mix of Black Widow, Hercules, Angel, Iceman, and Ghost Rider.
It wasn't great, and yes I mostly bought it for some Byrne art, otherwise, pretty forgettable.
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