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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 17, 2019 20:56:52 GMT -5
My kids are re-watching Supergirl... and I must have missed this the last time around...  I guess the writers do at least a little research! The episode is even called "For the Girl Who Has Everything." Did they give Moore a credit? Several other DC television shows have had an episode in which the protagonist is trapped in a perfect dream, but without the Black Mercy as the plot device. They do not.. just the usual Siegel and Shuster mention. I guess it falls under just DCU general use? I wouldn't mind seeing some credit given when it's just a direct thing, but that could get to be a bit overwhelming at times trying to give out credit for every bit of lore they use in a show... might discourage cool connections like this. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 17, 2019 21:01:54 GMT -5
The woman is Kristin Wells, aka Superwoman. Eliot Maggin introduced her in the novel Miracle Monday and she was added into continuity at DC. She is a time traveler, from the future, who has studied Superman. She first appeared in comics in DC Comics Presents Annual #2.  The guy in the Zardoz clothing is Vartox, an alien hero who first appeared in Superman #281.  I liked Vartox.. he had some pretty good stories in late pre-crisis era (which I bought a few of not that long ago) |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 17, 2019 21:24:11 GMT -5
I believe that I had this two parter as one of my greatest saga entries a few years back , so I have to disagree with you. First of all , this is an Imaginary story as stated in the beginning, so anything goes. Second, in this tale the stakes are amped up because the driving force, Mxyzptlk, is inducing the formerly harmless adversaries to act in a more violent nature. As for Luthor and Braniac, they were always striving to kill Superman. I wouldn't call it a Grim and Gritty entry by Moore, just a playing for keeps and bored villain that wanted to turn events into a massacre. The story is spurred on by the knowledge from historians that this was Superman's last stand. As you can see , the Legion of Super Villains came back to join in on a "sure thing." The twist that Mxyzptlk is the villain behind it all is good writing, if it was Luthor behind it, I imagine Moore would have been accused of lazy writing. Lastly, his abandoning his role as Superman was the result of a deeply held code against killing. There would have been more backlash if he killed and just shrugged his shoulders afterwards and went on with his life. He hardly is leaving earth to the Wolves with all the heroes that are still there to protect it. Also, don't forget that some of those major threats were eliminated in this showdown. I will reiterate, it was an Imaginary story as a send off to the greatest superhero of all that was a few months away from a total reboot.  Ok. So. Yeah, I agree this is really good. But.. It was really it's own thing. Moore, at least in American comics, was primarily a horror writer and this was 100% a horror story. It was the whole cast getting killed off one by one ala Friday the 13th or Halloween, complete with bizarre gross-out scenes like the Braninac/Luthor team-up. It was an extremely effective recasting of Superman through the lens of horror fiction with some great individual scenes that created a genuinely haunting sense of palpable tension. But it was a complete 180 from every other Superman story up to this point, which made it a less-than- effective coda. Also, since Cody mentioned it, I have to opine that Miracle Monday is the actual greatest Superman story of all time. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 17, 2019 22:49:30 GMT -5
I'd mostly go along with that, other than Last Son of Krypton has some really great Lex stuff and some brilliant Einstein moments. The alien villain doesn't work as well, which is the only thing putting it behind Miracle Monday.
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Post by rberman on Mar 18, 2019 5:19:02 GMT -5
Secret Origins #10 “Footsteps” (January 1987)
Creative Team: Alan Moore writing, Joe Orlando art. The First Story: The angel Etrigan visits an unnamed angel whom Satan wishes to recruit for a revolt against Yahweh. The angel agrees to hear Satan out, but having done that, remains undecided. During the battle between Satan and Yahweh he declines to help either side. He is cast out of heaven but also rejected by Satan; his wings are torn from him, and he must walk the middle places of the spirit realms forever.  The Second Story: An unnamed member of the Subway Angels neighborhood watch group receives an offer of recruitment from a colleague Otis who is planning a revolt against their leader Joshua. Otis plans to establish a colony in the sewers below the subway; paraphrasing Milton, he finds it better to reign there than to serve higher up. During the battle, our protagonist declines to help either side. He is cast out of the Subway Angels but also rejected by Otis and beaten. Phantom Stranger gives him a hand up and returns him safely to the surface.  My Two Cents: “Legends” was a crossover event introducing the post-COIE status quo of the new DC universe. This installment featured four deliberately contradictory origin stories for the Phantom Stranger. Moore uses his chapter as a dense formal experiment in parallel storytelling. The narrative alternates strictly (until the last two pages) between the two stories, with parallel movements of the two stories: The Emissary, The Pitch, The Battle, The Rejection. Each page has small panels on top culminating in a semi-splash for the bottom of the page.   The red-bereted “Subway Angels” stand in for the real-life urban watchmen of the Guardian Angels. Giving them a story paralleling the fall of Satan from heaven was a stroke of inspiration; their leader’s name “Joshua” is derivative of the same Hebrew name (Y'Shua) from which “Jesus” comes. I’m not sure where Moore got the idea that Satan’s fall was occasioned by God’s plan to create man. It sounds more like Christian folklore than Qabballah; it's not in the Bible. The last page is loaded with portentous detail. The bloodied Subway Angel reports that he “took a fall,” which alludes to the theological concept of the Fall of Satan from heaven. Phantom Stranger’s hand of assistance recalls the Creation of Man in the Sistine Chapel, but it also recalls the handshake between God and Satan in Swamp Thing #50 (July 1986, not many months before this story) in which Phantom Stranger also figured prominently. Note how Phantom Stranger’s glove darkens on contact with the fallen man. Is this part of Moore’s theme about the interdependence of good and evil? 
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 18, 2019 5:29:58 GMT -5
My kids are re-watching Supergirl... and I must have missed this the last time around... I guess the writers do at least a little research! They do quite a lot of research. The DC shows are full of stuff like this, tributes to past stories, little easter eggs only fans would notice... |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 18, 2019 5:32:34 GMT -5
I believe that I had this two parter as one of my greatest saga entries a few years back , so I have to disagree with you. First of all , this is an Imaginary story as stated in the beginning, so anything goes. Second, in this tale the stakes are amped up because the driving force, Mxyzptlk, is inducing the formerly harmless adversaries to act in a more violent nature. As for Luthor and Braniac, they were always striving to kill Superman. I wouldn't call it a Grim and Gritty entry by Moore, just a playing for keeps and bored villain that wanted to turn events into a massacre. The story is spurred on by the knowledge from historians that this was Superman's last stand. As you can see , the Legion of Super Villains came back to join in on a "sure thing." The twist that Mxyzptlk is the villain behind it all is good writing, if it was Luthor behind it, I imagine Moore would have been accused of lazy writing. Lastly, his abandoning his role as Superman was the result of a deeply held code against killing. There would have been more backlash if he killed and just shrugged his shoulders afterwards and went on with his life. He hardly is leaving earth to the Wolves with all the heroes that are still there to protect it. Also, don't forget that some of those major threats were eliminated in this showdown. I will reiterate, it was an Imaginary story as a send off to the greatest superhero of all that was a few months away from a total reboot. Ok. So. Yeah, I agree this is really good. But.. It was really it's own thing. Moore, at least in American comics, was primarily a horror writer and this was 100% a horror story. It was the whole cast getting killed off one by one ala Friday the 13th or Halloween, complete with bizarre gross-out scenes like the Braninac/Luthor team-up. It was an extremely effective recasting of Superman through the lens of horror fiction with some great individual scenes that created a genuinely haunting sense of palpable tension. But it was a complete 180 from every other Superman story up to this point, which made it a less-than- effective coda. Also, since Cody mentioned it, I have to opine that Miracle Monday is the actual greatest Superman story of all time. Moore, "primarily a horror writer"? Uh...no. He's done horror, certainly; Neonomicon, parts of Swamp Thing...but it's far outweighed by his non horror work. And this certainly wasn't a horror story. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 18, 2019 5:36:14 GMT -5
Kevin O’Neill draws the most nightmare inducing monsters ever. There I said it. DC actually stopped employing Kev because someone in editorial considered his art style "offensive". He found that amusing. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 18, 2019 7:06:44 GMT -5
Read it again. I will wager money that this will be blatantly and blindingly obvious if you look at the tone, structure and pacing of the narrative.
I was thinking more of Moore's work for American comics, which skewed strongly toward horror at this point in his career. I'm much less famiar with his British work.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 18, 2019 7:28:53 GMT -5
Moore's American superhero stories certainly had horrific consequences.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 18, 2019 23:37:16 GMT -5
Kevin O’Neill draws the most nightmare inducing monsters ever. There I said it. DC actually stopped employing Kev because someone in editorial considered his art style "offensive". He found that amusing. Well, the Comics Code rejected his work based entirely on style, or so the story goes. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 19, 2019 8:07:27 GMT -5
Moore's American superhero stories certainly had horrific consequences. Did they? They led to a lot of other writers creating some innovative new takes on characters which, in a lot of cases, I really liked. |
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Post by tingramretro on Mar 19, 2019 8:08:11 GMT -5
Read it again. I will wager money that this will be blatantly and blindingly obvious if you look at the tone, structure and pacing of the narrative. I was thinking more of Moore's work for American comics, which skewed strongly toward horror at this point in his career. I'm much less famiar with his British work. I think we have different ideas of what constitutes horror. |
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Post by rberman on Mar 19, 2019 8:12:53 GMT -5
Green Lantern Annual #3 “In Blackest Night” (1987)
Creative Team: Alan Moore writing, Bill Willingham pencils, Terry Austin inks The Story: Green Lantern Katmu Tui flies into “a lightless cosmos” to find a GL recruit from among the sightless creatures who live there. A worthy candidate named Rot Lop Fan presents himself. But her attempts to describe terms like “green” and “lantern” fall flat; half of the words in the GL oath make no sense to someone who lives blind and surrounded by darkness.  Finally she has the idea to explain everything in terms of sound rather than light. It all makes sense to him in those terms, and the Corps’ first “F# Bell” (F# being a musical frequency just as green is a color frequency) is minted.  My Two Cents: This is an allegory about ecumenism. How much does religious terminology matter? Are multiple religions saying the same basic thing using different words? Do the differences ever have consequences? Moore is clearly coming down on the side of “it’s all the same basic thing, and F# Bell should be accepted as a valid variation on Green Lantern.” The power battery appears to agree, as it accepts Rot Lop Fan’s music-themed oath for the purposes of charging his power ring. But he doesn’t understand the concept of “Yellow Light,” which may be OK as long as he stays in his blackened cosmos, but if he comes out and encounters Sinestro, Rot Lop Fan’s lightless worldview will have huge consequences.  The element of localized versions of the Green Lantern oath also appeared this same year in Moore’s “All Flesh is Grass” ( Swamp Thing #61) with the tree-like Medphyll.  The story of "F# Bell" is only six pages long, but it’s also been given pride of first position in this issue, showing how Moore’s stock rapidly rose at DC. Artist Bill Willingham went on to helm the Fables series.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Mar 19, 2019 12:19:50 GMT -5
I thought the F Sharp Bell was a clever variant, although odd that he seemed so easily startled and that he seemed to exist without any social context (who exactly is he protecting?).
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