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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 9:36:13 GMT -5
The biggest penetration of Marvel Super-Heroines prior to the advent of Marvel movies in 2000 was the X-Men animated series beginning in 1992. Storm, Rogue, Jean Grey and Jubilee all played somewhat prominent roles in there, so it would likely be one of them. While FF and Spider-Woman had Saturday morning cartoons in the 70s and 80s, even Firestar from Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends had a deeper cultural penetration than either of them (Sue being 4th fiddle even behind the robot in the FF cartoons, and the Spider-Woman cartoon not lasting long enough to make a big impression outside of the kids who watched it). The X-Men cartoon however had resonance beyond the Saturday morning morning audience, spawned massive merchandising lines and brought the characters into the public consciousness far more than any previous Marvel attempt at showcasing their characters.
-M
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 10, 2019 10:53:14 GMT -5
In an absolute sense, none of Marvel's heroines are well known to the general public. But the success of the Avengers films has probably made Black Widow the most famous one currently, portrayed by one of the best known actresses of today. Black Widow is apparently not well known enough to carry her own film, though Scarlett Johannson has made other action movies already. And still Captain Marvel had a movie before her... It’s possible that those other movies hurt her chances. They didn’t exactly make lots of money. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 10, 2019 11:09:45 GMT -5
Here's the thing; the general public doesn't know from DC and Marvel. They know the name Marvel, now from the movies; but, if you ask them to name a Marvel hero, odds or high you will get Batman and Superman, probably more than most of the Marvel characters. Ask for a female and you will get Wonder Woman. To them, it's all the same thing.
Now, if you carefully removed that, then probably Black Widow, since she's been featured in 6 films. The only X-Man anyone remembers is Wolverine (which is pretty true for comics fans). They might remember the actress; but, I bet a lot couldn't name who Halle Berry played. No one would name Invisible Woman, as no one remember the FF films (and why should they?)
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Mar 10, 2019 11:29:30 GMT -5
It's incredible how the Wonder Woman tv show is ingrained in the collective consciousness, because I'm sure that before this series the character hadn't been so well known. Now we have supposedly better tv supehero shows but no one of them helped to make its main character so rooted in the popular culture like the Amazon Princess.... I'd argue that Wonder Woman was fairly well-known before the TV series, otherwise the show would have never been made in the first place. The character was a common cultural touchstone, similar to Superman, and an entire generation grew up reading her comics or knowing about them during WW 2, when comic book sales were very high. But I agree that the Lynda Carter TV show cemented the character in the public consciousness (much like the Adam West show did for Batman) and has endured as "the" Wonder Woman for the non-comic book reading public. |
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Post by zaku on Mar 10, 2019 13:42:30 GMT -5
It's incredible how the Wonder Woman tv show is ingrained in the collective consciousness, because I'm sure that before this series the character hadn't been so well known. Now we have supposedly better tv supehero shows but no one of them helped to make its main character so rooted in the popular culture like the Amazon Princess.... I'd argue that Wonder Woman was fairly well-known before the TV series, otherwise the show would have never been made in the first place. The character was a common cultural touchstone, similar to Superman, and an entire generation grew up reading her comics or knowing about them during WW 2, when comic book sales were very high. But I agree that the Lynda Carter TV show cemented the character in the public consciousness (much like the Adam West show did for Batman) and has endured as "the" Wonder Woman for the non-comic book reading public. While I understand that measuring how well-know was a superhero in a certain period is quite difficult, I'm not sure that how famous a character was drove so much the choices of tv producers. I mean, they made a tv show about the Hulk and a pilot about Doctor Strange at the time. And while the former at least had had a previous cartoon, I'm quite sure the latter was virtually unknown. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 14:19:23 GMT -5
I'd argue that Wonder Woman was fairly well-known before the TV series, otherwise the show would have never been made in the first place. The character was a common cultural touchstone, similar to Superman, and an entire generation grew up reading her comics or knowing about them during WW 2, when comic book sales were very high. But I agree that the Lynda Carter TV show cemented the character in the public consciousness (much like the Adam West show did for Batman) and has endured as "the" Wonder Woman for the non-comic book reading public. While I understand that measuring how well-know was a superhero in a certain period is quite difficult, I'm not sure that how famous a character was drove so much the choices of tv producers. I mean, they made a tv show about the Hulk and a pilot about Doctor Strange at the time. And while the former at least had had a previous cartoon, I'm quite sure the latter was virtually unknown. Doctor Strange was unknown, but movies about the occult were all the rage in that time period, so it was about selling the genre, not the character at that point. If you remove the name Doctor Strange form that movie, it plays like any horror B-movie at that time, and it was about trying to attach the character to the genre to try to build a brand rather than trying to sell the brand of Marvel or Doctor Strange. That was simply Marvel cutting a deal to put their premiere occult character out there to try to cash in on the popularity of horror/occult movies and filling out the roster they pitched to CBS when they cut the deal for Spider-Man, Hulk and Captain America. If Ghost Rider had been feasible with the SFX tech at the time, they might have pitched him instead to cash in on the popularity of stunt cycles as well as horror, but his visual wasn't achievable at the time (it would likely have been a motorcycle helmet with a flaming skull painted on it similar to what Captain America wore). -M |
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Mar 10, 2019 14:40:42 GMT -5
I'd argue that Wonder Woman was fairly well-known before the TV series, otherwise the show would have never been made in the first place. The character was a common cultural touchstone, similar to Superman, and an entire generation grew up reading her comics or knowing about them during WW 2, when comic book sales were very high. But I agree that the Lynda Carter TV show cemented the character in the public consciousness (much like the Adam West show did for Batman) and has endured as "the" Wonder Woman for the non-comic book reading public. While I understand that measuring how well-know was a superhero in a certain period is quite difficult, I'm not sure that how famous a character was drove so much the choices of tv producers. I mean, they made a tv show about the Hulk and a pilot about Doctor Strange at the time. And while the former at least had had a previous cartoon, I'm quite sure the latter was virtually unknown. It's not difficult to measure how recognizable Wonder Woman has been for decades. Consider some of these non-comic book references to her below to simply gauge why she would have been considered a viable character for a TV show in the 1970s: the cover of Ms. Magazine no. 1, a reprint collection published in 1972, an Aurora model kit alongside fellow mainstream superhero mainstays Superman and Batman, and the Super Friends Saturday morning cartoon. Simply put, Wonder Woman has always been in the mainstream cultural zeitgeist as the female superhero for non-comic book readers. As for the Hulk TV show, that was the result of Universal Television's desire to exploit the popularity of the Wonder Woman TV show. Since they owned the rights to Marvel characters they inevitably were tasked with developing a project that wouldn't have the same cultural cache of the three DC superheroes (Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman) who were the only ones to have an uninterrupted comic book publishing history going back to the late 1930s/early 1940s. And the Hulk TV series was radically altered and ended up being quite different from the comic books, which indicates that Universal had no investment or faith in significant brand recognition from the comics. And other realized or proposed TV projects based on Marvel characters (such as Spider-Man and Dr. Strange) either failed to generate the desired public interest and were abandoned or were never made at all. All of which speaks to the central conceit of your question regarding pre-Ms. Marvel (2019) Marvel female superheroes. Aside from the X-Men animated series of the 1990s, there really hasn't been any really visible Marvel female superhero in the mainstream.     |
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Post by beccabear67 on Mar 10, 2019 16:00:03 GMT -5
I would've thought Spider-Woman was at one time but not sure anymore.
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Post by berkley on Mar 10, 2019 16:05:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I can't think of any Marvel female character that would have been recognised by the general non-comics-reading audience. Even now, after all the successful movies, I doubt there's one that would reach Wonder Woman levels. Bit of a black mark for Marvel, really.
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Post by String on Mar 10, 2019 16:35:10 GMT -5
The biggest penetration of Marvel Super-Heroines prior to the advent of Marvel movies in 2000 was the X-Men animated series beginning in 1992. Storm, Rogue, Jean Grey and Jubilee all played somewhat prominent roles in there, so it would likely be one of them. While FF and Spider-Woman had Saturday morning cartoons in the 70s and 80s, even Firestar from Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends had a deeper cultural penetration than either of them (Sue being 4th fiddle even behind the robot in the FF cartoons, and the Spider-Woman cartoon not lasting long enough to make a big impression outside of the kids who watched it). The X-Men cartoon however had resonance beyond the Saturday morning morning audience, spawned massive merchandising lines and brought the characters into the public consciousness far more than any previous Marvel attempt at showcasing their characters. -M My initial response would be Firestar. Amazing Friends ran for what, two, maybe three seasons? Plus I would think the network promotion of it at that time in the 80s would've been larger than the FF cartoon of the 70s which would lessen the chances of someone recalling Susan. But wasn't Firestar created first for the cartoon and then Marvel added her into the comics later? X-Men was HUGE back then and of those group you mentioned, I would put forth Rogue as making the biggest memorable impression on non-comic readers for her looks, outfit, and (whether you liked it or not), her distinctive Southern drawl. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 10, 2019 17:07:45 GMT -5
No one. Marvel never pushed any of their female heroes.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 10, 2019 17:08:15 GMT -5
Black Widow or Storm. The general public's memory is pretty short. So unless a character permeates the public consciousness (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman) they are going to fade with time. Those two characters have been involved in successful film franchises in the recent past. Storm was not well used or particularly prominent in X-films, but I think she was in X-Men cartoons that young adults might remember.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 10, 2019 17:38:51 GMT -5
Yeah, narrowing the field down to Marvel super-heroines makes it really hard to say. Like Confessor, I'd say Invisible Woman, and maybe also Spiderwoman, based on the fact that they appeared in Saturday morning cartoons - but even then, they were pretty obscure, with nowhere near the recognition Wonder Woman had. In fact, before the Marvel cinematic universe became a thing, even most major Marvel male characters were largely unknown to the wider, non-comics reading public. Basically, it was Spider-man and then, to a far lesser degree, the Hulk (thanks to the TV show). And neither of them were even close to Superman and Batman in that regard. I agree with those choices of Invisible Woman and Spider-Woman. Marvel heroines are just not as well developed/marketed as DC's. To this day, outside of comics, even with a Captain Marvel film (that is still not going to be a household name other than the fact "Marvel" calls the film series to mind as a brand more than this character), and Black Widow being known more for the actress than the character, there's not much mainstream pop culture awareness for audiences. That's surprising, as Marvel was always the company blowing its own horn about how progressive they were, yet in the grand scheme of things, DC has more female characters that are known/promoted to Joe and Jane Average. Mister Spaceman nailed it with how visible Wonder Woman had been--a real marketed part of the culture, even before the 1976-79 Lynda Carter TV series. Of course, Batgirl--both in comics and her first live-action appearance (1967-86) on the Batman TV series was another major promotion of DC's female characters, and unlike the 11 years and over a dozen films it took the Marvel Cinematic Universe to have a female-led film in Captain Marvel, Superman the movie was only 6 years only when WB greenlit the production of the Supergirl film during a period where superhero films were still not making every studio rush to produce their own. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 10, 2019 18:10:59 GMT -5
Who are y'all talking about when you say "Spider-Woman?" Because I can't imagine anyone outside hardcore comics fans knowing who Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew is. Hell, I didn't even realize she'd had a cartoon until I looked it up on Wiki.
I would hazard that at this point Spider Gwen is better known than Spider-Woman, simply because of the Spider-verse movie.
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Post by rberman on Mar 10, 2019 18:27:25 GMT -5
Who are y'all talking about when you say "Spider-Woman?" Because I can't imagine anyone outside hardcore comics fans knowing who Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew is. Hell, I didn't even realize she'd had a cartoon until I looked it up on Wiki. I would hazard that at this point Spider Gwen is better known than Spider-Woman, simply because of the Spider-verse movie. Indeed, at the moment, Negasonic Teenage Warhead is better known than Storm. Who woulda thunk it? |
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