|
|
Post by MDG on Mar 27, 2019 8:31:48 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder how comics might have evolved if they hadn't had their early roots so connected to organized crime, if they'd been run more like "real" book publishers (with series being owned & controlled by the creators, and with proper financial involvement & compensation), and without the censorship pushed on them by outside (and sometimes inside) forces. Or am I trying to look at "the big picture" too much?  No, it's interesting to think about, even if comics were run more like traditional magazines, with contributors selling pieces but retaining the rights.
I believe Europe and Japan were more friendly to creators.
Well, a lot of the really productive, creative movers and shakers went off to war, leaving a lot of lesser talent behind. You get a lot of the same old plots, mostly swiped from pulps and newspaper strips. Some fared beter than others; but, comics were a young man's game. the older guys were busy trying to break into the slick magazines or newspaper strips, where the money and prestige were. Comics were considered low rent; thus, the most enthusiastic producers were the young guys, most of whom ended up drafted or enlisting, with a few exceptions. ... I don't kno that comics was ever likely to rise above the level of the pulps, which is where they were born. Even with contracts more akin to the big publishing houses, I don't know that things would have been that different, except maybe in a few corner, like Simon & Kirby and Eisner, maybe Siegel & Shuster. Pay was never going to be as good as the syndicates or the slicks. Yeah, in the 50s, some of the people with the most vision about where comics could go left the four-color industry, speaking specifically of Eisner, Kurtzman, and Biro.
It's interesting to think what Dell could have done, with the money and distribution they had behind them, but they seemed content to focus on licensed characters and adaptations.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Mar 27, 2019 8:35:28 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder how comics might have evolved if they hadn't had their early roots so connected to organized crime, if they'd been run more like "real" book publishers (with series being owned & controlled by the creators, and with proper financial involvement & compensation), and without the censorship pushed on them by outside (and sometimes inside) forces. I have not seen this discussed around here. Where can we read about the mob connections? |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2019 9:06:00 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder how comics might have evolved if they hadn't had their early roots so connected to organized crime, if they'd been run more like "real" book publishers (with series being owned & controlled by the creators, and with proper financial involvement & compensation), and without the censorship pushed on them by outside (and sometimes inside) forces. I have not seen this discussed around here. Where can we read about the mob connections? Gerard Jones' Men of Tomorrow discusses it in depth. Mostly, they were involved in the printing and distribution ends of things. The bulk of the publishers came from the pulps, which was low end printing and distribution, so same connections. It's a little blown out of proportion; but, the mob had a hand in a lot of magazine distribution, especially lower end stuff. They handled all of the "under the counter" stuff (porn). They were also heavily involved in trucking, which means national transport and distribution. Japan, post-war, was no different, as the yakuza were the only ones with money for investment. They are silent partners in just about every industry in Japan, including publishing. The mob plays into at least one interesting story (probably exaggerated; but, that's the nature of things). In the Eisner-Iger shop years, some hoods came around to shake them down for "towel fees". Towels for the restroom might be provided by a service. These guys claimed to have the concession for the building. As Eisner told it, Jack Kirby got up in the mobster's face and told him to beat it. The guy left without incident. Eisner tells the story in The Dreamer. Later, he related the story at one of the Eisner Awards, when Al Jaffee was being honored. He was telling stories of the shop, where Jaffee did grunt work, erasing pencils and ink smudges. Jaffee quipped, "And why were there smudges? No towels!" |
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Mar 27, 2019 21:18:29 GMT -5
I have not seen this discussed around here. Where can we read about the mob connections?
I recall Wikipedia mentioning it somewhere.
Getting past the Golden Age, National / DC spent a lot of time trying to clean up their act and reputation over the course of the 50s & 60s.
But then, just about the time "small-timer" Martin Goodman sold Marvel to Perfect Film (the first of a long string of faceless soulless corporations), DC was sold to Kinney National Company. Kinney was a New York MOB company who originally specialized in things like parking lots and trash removal. They also bought Warner Brothers movie studio, and when they did, they changed the name of the parent company from Kinney to Warner Communications, in order to put distance between themselves and... themselves.
So, like Al Pacino in "THE GODFATHER", DC spent a lot of time trying to get away from their mob roots, only to be bought by another mob company.
Although I had no clue at the time I first read it, visionary writer Jack Kirby commented on this very situation in his run of SUPERMAN'S PAL JIMMY OLSEN. Morgan Edge and his multinational conglomerate "GBS" bought out The Daily Planet, and Edge reassigned Clark Kent to become a TV newscaster. But Edge was really an agent of Intergang, which was secretly an undercover organization headed by interplanetary despot Darkseid.
Edge spent much of his time in Kirby's stories trying to have Kent and Olsen MURDERED.
It was only after Kirby left the book, that someone at DC apparently took a look and realized the implications of what was going on... and so ordered a really contrived story in which it was revealed that Edge was an evil duplicate imposter of the "real" Edge, who had been kidnapped and held prisoner for months. Eventually, the fake Edge was destroyed, and the "real" Edge took back his life.
Of course... that's NOT what Kirby ever had in mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Mar 27, 2019 21:52:51 GMT -5
I have not seen this discussed around here. Where can we read about the mob connections?
I recall Wikipedia mentioning it somewhere.
Getting past the Golden Age, National / DC spent a lot of time trying to clean up their act and reputation over the course of the 50s & 60s.
But then, just about the time "small-timer" Martin Goodman sold Marvel to Perfect Film (the first of a long string of faceless soulless corporations), DC was sold to Kinney National Company. Kinney was a New York MOB company who originally specialized in things like parking lots and trash removal. They also bought Warner Brothers movie studio, and when they did, they changed the name of the parent company from Kinney to Warner Communications, in order to put distance between themselves and... themselves.
So, like Al Pacino in "THE GODFATHER", DC spent a lot of time trying to get away from their mob roots, only to be bought by another mob company.
Although I had no clue at the time I first read it, visionary writer Jack Kirby commented on this very situation in his run of SUPERMAN'S PAL JIMMY OLSEN. Morgan Edge and his multinational conglomerate "GBS" bought out The Daily Planet, and Edge reassigned Clark Kent to become a TV newscaster. But Edge was really an agent of Intergang, which was secretly an undercover organization headed by interplanetary despot Darkseid.
Edge spent much of his time in Kirby's stories trying to have Kent and Olsen MURDERED.
It was only after Kirby left the book, that someone at DC apparently took a look and realized the implications of what was going on... and so ordered a really contrived story in which it was revealed that Edge was an evil duplicate imposter of the "real" Edge, who had been kidnapped and held prisoner for months. Eventually, the fake Edge was destroyed, and the "real" Edge took back his life.
Of course... that's NOT what Kirby ever had in mind.
Ooh I read some of those stories way back when but had no clue about the subtext. That was pretty daring of Kirby to work it into the story so blatantly, for those who knew the real life situation. |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 28, 2019 10:32:20 GMT -5
If the terms trash collection and New York City come up together at any point prior to the last 20 years it's prima facie evidence that the mob was involved.
|
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Mar 28, 2019 10:45:18 GMT -5
Kirby confronting mobsters makes me wonder if he had some friends In That line of work.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
|
Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2019 10:57:29 GMT -5
Kirby confronting mobsters makes me wonder if he had some friends In That line of work. The mob was far more ubiquitous in the first half of the 20th Century. Shakedowns were a common fact of life for most businesses based in major cities. And American Jews of the era were already especially familiar with bullies and threats of violence. Eisner's semi-autobiographical works discuss this quite a bit. |
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Mar 28, 2019 11:44:35 GMT -5
Kirby grew up in Hell's Kitchen, in a Jewish neighborhood. Street fights were a fact of life, as neighborhood fought neighborhood. Most were ethnically segregated (some mixture on the fringes). Kirby did the feature "Streetwise," about his childhood. He may have known mobsters; but, he definitely knew fighting. It sounded like the hoods at the Eisner-Iger shop may not have been mafia, per se; but, someone trying to run an extortion scam. Might have been mob, might have been low level type, might have been a regular business that used underhanded tactics, rather than directly connected to organized crime. You also have to remember that there was the mafia, other criminal gangs, and your basic lowlifes. There were Jewish mobs, as well as the Italians, with guys like Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel, as well as Irish gangs, Germans, Dutch, etc, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 11:46:38 GMT -5
Kirby touched on the subject of the mob often in his career, perhaps most on the nose in this...  -M |
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959 
|
Post by Crimebuster on Mar 28, 2019 13:03:54 GMT -5
Sandman Mystery Theater had an arc about mobsters horning in on the early comic book industry.  |
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Mar 28, 2019 13:18:41 GMT -5
Kirby touched on the subject of the mob often in his career, perhaps most on the nose in this... -M ...although if you ever read it (I have a copy), you will find its more TV Untouchables type of "mob" than based on the real Mafia, et al. |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 28, 2019 13:25:25 GMT -5
Always interesting to see where the thread drift will go.
|
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Mar 28, 2019 15:15:54 GMT -5
Kirby had more direct knowledge of crime, applied to some of his comics...  There is the face of a hardened criminal, if ever I saw one! |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Mar 29, 2019 8:30:46 GMT -5
Well if nothing else, Kirby had balls of steel.
|
|
