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Post by profh0011 on Mar 29, 2019 19:17:31 GMT -5
Ooh I read some of those stories way back when but had no clue about the subtext. That was pretty daring of Kirby to work it into the story so blatantly, for those who knew the real life situation.
Apparently he did that a lot more than most people were aware. For example, a few months ago, another fan online posted about the back-story of Black Panther's origin-- the real-life African country of Katanga, which in the early 1960s was invaded & brutalized by mercenaries in the employ of mining companies, once huge deposits of uranium were discovered there. The published comic (thanks to his editor) was so watered-down that I never had a clue about this for decades.
Meanwhile, today I'm re-watching Don Siegel's "INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS", which stars Kevin McCarthy... the visual model for Kirby's "Morgan Edge" !! The scenes where he's frantically trying to convince people that aliens are creating duplicates of humans strikes me as what probably inspired the NON-Kirby story that revealed that the evil Edge was (ALLEGEDLY!!!) not the real one. I prefer Kirby's original intentions... but this other thing never even occured to me before today.
As a further aside... check out the Weird Al Yankovic movie " UHF". McCarthy plays the villain in there, and funny enough, the character reminds me of a PARODY of Kirby's Morgan Edge.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 29, 2019 23:07:50 GMT -5
Ooh I read some of those stories way back when but had no clue about the subtext. That was pretty daring of Kirby to work it into the story so blatantly, for those who knew the real life situation.
Apparently he did that a lot more than most people were aware. For example, a few months ago, another fan online posted about the back-story of Black Panther's origin-- the real-life African country of Katanga, which in the early 1960s was invaded & brutalized by mercenaries in the employ of mining companies, once huge deposits of uranium were discovered there. The published comic (thanks to his editor) was so watered-down that I never had a clue about this for decades.
Meanwhile, today I'm re-watching Don Siegel's "INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS", which stars Kevin McCarthy... the visual model for Kirby's "Morgan Edge" !! The scenes where he's frantically trying to convince people that aliens are creating duplicates of humans strikes me as what probably inspired the NON-Kirby story that revealed that the evil Edge was (ALLEGEDLY!!!) not the real one. I prefer Kirby's original intentions... but this other thing never even occured to me before today.
As a further aside... check out the Weird Al Yankovic movie " UHF". McCarthy plays the villain in there, and funny enough, the character reminds me of a PARODY of Kirby's Morgan Edge.
Um, the history (or whoever posted the story) is way off there. Katanga was one of the primary mineral-rich areas of the Congo, which had been under Belgian control (first as a personal holding of King Leopold, then a colony of the country). Congo gained formal independence in 1960. Patrice Lumumba, a Leftist, became the new Prime Minister. This touched off a lot of political turmoil, which included the secession by the Katanga province, led by Moshe Tshombe, with the backing of the Belgian and other European mining companies (and tacit approval by the Belgian government). Katanga hire European and white South African & Rhodesian mercenaries to help train their forces and actually carry out fighting. Lumumba appealed to the UN and a peacekeeping mission was sent in, which turned into outright combat missions between UN forces and the Katanga mercenaries. In 1961, an Irish unit was attacked by the Katanganese mercenaries, led by Rolf Steiner, and held out for 6 days, without air support or much resupply, until they finally ran out of ammunition, at the Siege of Jadotville (there is an excellent movie about the fighting, that was on Netflix) The CIA, with Belgian assistance, backed Col. Joseph Mobutu in a coup, against Lumumba, and delivered him to Tshombe, in Katanga, where he was murdered. The secession was ended in 1963, though it took time for things to settle. Tshombe stepped down and Mobutu eventually ceded power, back to Joseph Kasa-Vubu, the President of the Congo. In 1964, Kasa-Vubu appointed Tshombe as Prime Minister, which was condemned by other African leaders, as he was seen as a puppet of European and US mining interests and governments. A new rebellion broke out, led by Maoists Pierre Mulele and Christopher Gbenye, and their forces, known as the Simbas (Swahili for lion). This led to an emergency declaration and the open hiring of new mercenary forces, including units led by South African (and Irish ex-patriot) Mike Hoare, French police officer Bob Denard (who acted under the orders of French intelligence services) and local Belgian planter Jacques Schramme. Hoare led the 5 Commando, which was called the Wild Geese, after the previous generations of Irish mercenaries who fought in other wars, after leaving Ireland. Denard commanded the French-speaking 6 Commando. These forces and their exploits were heavily reported (some had been part of the Katanga secession). In 1964, the Simbas controlled the area of Stanleyville and rounded up all Europeans and threatened to kill them. A rescue operation was launched, between the US, Belgium and the mercenary forces, called Operation Dragon Rouge. The US supplied Air Force transport planes, which carried the Belgian Paracommando regiment in an airborne assault on Stanleyville; first seizing the airport, then retaking the city. The mercenaries travelled in a land convoy, to link up with the Belgian forces and reinforce them. The mercenary component, as was to be expected, proved to be a bit of a cluster-F and they were late; but, the Belgians were elite forces (trained by the British SAS) and were able to hold out until Hoare's men got there. Eventually, Mobutu launched another coup to unseat Tshombe, again with CIA backing. Tshombe fled to Spain and was later kidnapped, via hijacking, by an agent of the French SDECE and taken to Algeria for imprisonment, where he died in captivity (probably executed). Mobutu consolidated power. Hoare left the Congo, after making his fortune, turning his command over to South African Jon-Jon Peters, who had served in the South African SAS. Eventually, friction arose between Mobutu's people and the mercenaries and the mercenaries, under Schramme and Denard, tried to launch their own coup. denard was wounded in fighting and airlifted out. The mercenaries controlled the city of Leopoldville; but, were encircled and eventually surrendered to UN forces. Most were repatriated, surrendering their passports, though many conveniently "lost the," and got new papers, continuing to sell their services in places like Rhodesia, Angola, Nigeria and the Middle East. Mobutu renamed the Congo as the Republic of Zaire, in 1971, and held power, with US and Franco-Belgian backing, until 1997, when he was forced to flee the country, later dying in Morocco. Mobutu bled the country of wealth, much as Mugabe did in Zimbabwe, and was notorious, in the 70s, for his PR events, such as the Ali-Foreman fight, The Rumble in the Jungle, in 1974, which was heavily criticized, due to Mobutu's human rights record. Now, Kirby might easily have been inspired by the Katanga secession, in terms of having Klaw "invading Wakanda;" but, the mercenaries did not invade Katanga. They fought for the separatist government and European and US mining interests. The Katanga Secession and Simba War were inspirations for the novel and movie, Dark of the Sun (book by Wilbur Smith, movie starring Rod Taylor and James Brown), while the Simba rebellion and Kidnapping of Tshombe were partial inspirations for the movie The Wild Geese, with Richard Burton, Roger Moore and Richard Harris (based on a manuscript, which was published as a novel, when the movie came out, by Daniel Carney, a Rhodesian). The movie Lumumba covers Patrice Lumumba and the Katanga Secession well, and the Siege of Jodotville covers the Irish fight and gives a feel for the UN operations. The Wild Geese had Mike Hoare as a technical advisor and one of the actors, Ian Yule, had served as a mercenary soldier under Hoare (he also appears in the film Killer Force, with Telly Savalas, Peter Fonda, OJ Simpson, Christopher Lee and Hugh O'Brian). Hoare would soon after be approached by Soth African intelligence to carry out a military coup in the Seychelles, which had just had a bloodless coup of its corrupt government, by Marxists. the proximity to SA led them to hire Hoare, who recruited white mercenaries to fly in as a rugby club, with weapons hidden in their luggage. A customs officer discovered an AK in one bag and all hell broke loose. The mercs were attacked by Tanzanian army advisors and hijacked an Air India plane to SA, to escape. Hoare and the men were arrested, tried and convicted of hijacking. Bob Denard later carried out a series of coups and counter-coups in the Comoros Islands, off the southeast coast of Africa, at first with the blessing of the French government (the island is a major source of flowers used in the perfume industry), before Denard became an embarrassment and the French sent paratroops in to depose the mercenaries. he stood trial for murder of the former head of government; but, was acquitted. Frederick Forsyth wrote extensively about the mercenaries who fought for the Biafra separatists in Nigeria, in their civil war, which formed the basis of his novel, The Dogs of War. He also was allegedly involved in planning a coup of Equitorial Guinea, though he claimed he was conducting research and acted under the guidance of the British SIS. Black Panther was introduced in 1966, when the fighting in the Congo was mostly over. Kirby followed the news and the original Crisis and the Simba rebellion were heavily covered by news agencies. I can see the possibility of drawing the name Wakanda from Katanga, as well as the ideal of mineral wealth being the source of their power (with the same being true of Nigeria, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and South Africa). Kirby was also drawing on old pulp adventure stories, about hidden lands, with great wealth, including things like H Rider Haggard's King Solomon's Mines and She.
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Post by Farrar on Mar 30, 2019 9:42:48 GMT -5
Kirby grew up in Hell's Kitchen, in a Jewish neighborhood. Street fights were a fact of life, as neighborhood fought neighborhood. Most were ethnically segregated (some mixture on the fringes). Kirby did the feature "Streetwise," about his childhood... Slight correction: he grew up in the neighborhood known as the Lower East Side, which is about 4-5 miles south of Hell's Kitchen, and on the east side of Manhattan. The Hell's Kitchen neighborhood is further uptown and on the west side, close to the Broadway Theatre district.
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Post by profh0011 on Mar 30, 2019 13:40:40 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between wanting to share info and wanting to completely over-power someone with how much info you can bury them with.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 30, 2019 13:46:24 GMT -5
I don't have the patience or typing skills to type 3 page long answers to some of the issues brought up in this forum. But I appreciate a well read CCfer.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 30, 2019 17:04:06 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between wanting to share info and wanting to completely over-power someone with how much info you can bury them with. Sorry; but the Congo Crisis and the involvement of the mercenaries has been a pet subject, since I first saw the movie The Wild Geese. The 1960s were the main period of emerging independent African states, which led to a lot of political turmoil and civil war. I'm sur kirby had some of that in mind; but, he was also a big fan of the pulps and people like Haggard and Burroughs had written of hidden civilizations with massive wealth that was sought by outsiders. I've seen some articles trying to find inspiration for Wakanda and you can draw parallels to The Congo and Katanga, Nigeria, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, South Africa, Ethiopia and Kenya. The name Wakanda does appear in a later published (posthumously) Edgar Rice burroughs novel, and I'd be willing to bet that was a more likely source of the name. I'm sure a combination of the emerging African states and the Civil Rights movement did much to inspire Lee & Kirby in Black Panther, with more being developed by Roy Thomas and Don McGregor. You could say that mercenaries saved Marvel comics, as Quesada came on board with the Marvel Knights thing, as an outsider, in a more successful version of the deal with Lee and Liefeld's studios.
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Post by earl on Jul 13, 2019 17:00:41 GMT -5
Back in the 80s, Teen Titans and Crisis were the only two DC books in like the top 20 at the store I hung out in and worked. Superman often did not even make the shelves. I know at one point we only had like 1 person pulling it and Action before the reboot. Vigilante sold better than Superman, that comic had a 'few' people pulling it by comparison.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 14, 2019 12:00:38 GMT -5
It still kind of boggles the mind that DC let Superman get so "unpopular" with readers. I now have a great deal of respect for Curt Swan and love his art, but I do wonder why it took DC so long to realize that Superman needed a more dynamic creative team. I suppose Superman was so important as an IP that comic sales, even in that era, were a secondary concern to WB.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 14, 2019 14:03:14 GMT -5
It still kind of boggles the mind that DC let Superman get so "unpopular" with readers. I now have a great deal of respect for Curt Swan and love his art, but I do wonder why it took DC so long to realize that Superman needed a more dynamic creative team. I suppose Superman was so important as an IP that comic sales, even in that era, were a secondary concern to WB. I think you have a combination of forces at work, here. One; though Superman may have been "unpopular" with "readers" (read Direct Market and fandom), he was not unprofitable, and Superman and Action still sold decent numbers on newsstands. He was still okay to casual readers and parents and grandparents, who bought comics for the kids. Just like Archie. So, there is a certain logic to not mess with the formula. Also, there are foreign sales, with a certain expectation. We have a tendency to see comics of this era in terms of the Direct Market, which was still relatively small (but growing). There were additional sales through things like the Whitman bagged sets, or sales on toy department book displays. Those are still significant enough to not rock the boat. Two, Superman had appeared in in two movies, with a third coming out, before Crisis. Those films drew huge numbers (even the bad one) and, again, there is a certain expectation. In conjunction with those films, plus the super Friends and the Adv. of Superman, in syndication, there is a ton of merchandising going on. So, more reasons not to rock the boat. Third, Julie Schwartz was a massive presence at DC and one of the old guard; launcher of the Silver Age, old company man. He was still in control and removing him was a very political situation. When Jenette Kahn took over DC, she fought a lot of institutionalized thinking and sexism and Schwartz was one of those components. She found allies in the younger crowd, like Paul Levitz and Neal Adams, as well as "outsiders," like Joe Orlando and Dick Giordano. So, she bid her time, as many of those entrenched elements were nearing retirement age. Julie was close; but, not quite there. So, there is a political element to not messing with Superman. Finally, we were nearing the 50th Anniversary, so there was a timing element. Crisis & Who's Who were celebrating DC's 50th and plans were put in motion to launch a change in direction for Superman's 50th. By that point, Schwartz was retired, the films were underperforming, the Super Friends were no longer a fixture, and merchandising was steady, but not as big as it was. Newsstands were disappearing and comic shops were becoming THE outlet for comics. So, the impetus to change comes late, to Superman, more than any other character. Even then, Superman had gone through many peaks and valleys, with only minor tweaks. The period most people think of as the lowest is the valley after the films are a big deal and licensing shot up. Even then, some Superman titles remained popular, like DC Comics Presents. You also have to remember that Batman wasn't that big of a force, either, nor Wonder Woman. Dark Knight and Year One revitalized Batman and Perez revived Wonder Woman; but, prior to that, they were "old news" with fandom and the Direct Market. They still sold on newsstands, though and had a media and merchandising profile that everyone else envied.
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Post by earl on Jul 14, 2019 15:18:20 GMT -5
Batman/Detective, Legion, All Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. and Alan Moore's Swamp Thing had some fans, it's just they would be like in the list around the same place as say Captain America which I seem to remember as the worst regular month in month out title. Star Trek probably also sold ok, I remember there being some people having it on the pull list too, definitely more than some more DC regular comics.
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Post by zaku on Jul 14, 2019 15:40:58 GMT -5
Back in the 80s, Teen Titans and Crisis were the only two DC books in like the top 20 at the store I hung out in and worked. Superman often did not even make the shelves. I know at one point we only had like 1 person pulling it and Action before the reboot. Vigilante sold better than Superman, that comic had a 'few' people pulling it by comparison. I can understand. In a time where you had Claremont's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil and Wolfman's Teen Titans, why would you spend your money to read yet another story of the Lane-Superman-Lang triangle or where Luthor is trying to destroy the world because he's suffering from early baldness..?
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 14, 2019 16:16:05 GMT -5
It might have been Marv Wolfman, but I remember reading and interview where the creator stated that you'd read a Superman comic in the 60's that starts with something like "Superman, returning from his triumph over a powerful entity in a far distant galaxy, meets Lois on the rooftop of the Daily Planet..." with the remainder of the issue being about the aforementioned Lane/Superman/Kent love triangle, when he as a reader would scream, "No! I want to read about the space adventure!" Meanwhile, Lee/Kirby/Ditko and co. were revolutionizing comics.
Superman's universe always had a ton of depth, but many of the toys were left to collect dust for many, many years.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 14, 2019 17:08:17 GMT -5
I think Batman was much more popular then among fans than Superman. We read all the O'Neill/Adams books and the Englehart/Rodgers. They were innovative and not same old,same old like Superman. While Miller's work did great things for Batman's profile, he was already popular and discussed with the fans. You could not say the same for Supes until Byrne.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 14, 2019 17:12:09 GMT -5
Well if nothing else, Kirby had balls of steel. The story in Caviler and Klay about telling the Nazi who threatens the comic artist and is told to give it his best shot. Is a true story about Kirby and the Cover of Cap #1.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 14, 2019 17:26:27 GMT -5
I think Batman was much more popular then among fans than Superman. We read all the O'Neill/Adams books and the Englehart/Rodgers. They were innovative and not same old,same old like Superman. While Miller's work did great things for Batman's profile, he was already popular and discussed with the fans. You could not say the same for Supes until Byrne. I agree. I think the stratospheric ascendance of Batman post-1989 confuses the issue. It took a few years for DKR's to permeate the collective conscious of fandom. Really around 1989 and the movie. I'm currently reading Batman 1979 on, and he was heavily promoted in the DC comics, if that says anything. He also starred in just as many series as Superman, even before the movie and at the height of Superman's movie popularity. Batman always seemed to be the DC character that even dieheard Marvel Zombies thought was cool.
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