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Post by String on Apr 15, 2019 17:41:35 GMT -5
Robin's introduction's where I, personally, lost interest in the Golden Age Batman. A dark/tragic character with his roots in the pulps shouldn't have a gaily coloured prepubescent sidekick clothed in a speedo and pixie boots tagging along beside him. This is a common sentiment among modern readers, and it's a valid one. However, historically, Batman didn't become a runaway success until they added Robin. For most of the character's history, Robin's inclusion has remained a marketing necessity more than an artistic one, which is exactly what makes his treatment in the New Teen Titans so special. It's the first widely successful attempt to treat the character with artistic dignity. For further consideration: Does Batman Need A Robin?IMHO The First Serious Exploration of Robin as a Solo CharacterThis is exactly why I always think of Dick as Nightwing instead of being Robin. My first real intro to this character that showed how Wolfman developed his emotional journey over time that ultimately lead Dick to forego the Robin identity for his own new identity as Nightwing. Usually I will say that Wally is the first sidekick to ever fulfill the promise of succeeding his mentor but Dick really ought to be the first sidekick/partner to fully emerge into his own heroic identity separate from his mentor/partner. I'm also more open to see his relationship with Bruce as being more along the lines of brothers rather than some type of adoptive father/guardian. The same goes with Dick being a full-on partner in this dynamic duo rather than someone that needs to be continually taught/lead by the strong mentor figure of Batman. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 18:48:19 GMT -5
This is a common sentiment among modern readers, and it's a valid one. However, historically, Batman didn't become a runaway success until they added Robin. For most of the character's history, Robin's inclusion has remained a marketing necessity more than an artistic one, which is exactly what makes his treatment in the New Teen Titans so special. It's the first widely successful attempt to treat the character with artistic dignity. For further consideration: Does Batman Need A Robin?IMHO The First Serious Exploration of Robin as a Solo CharacterThis is exactly why I always think of Dick as Nightwing instead of being Robin. My first real intro to this character that showed how Wolfman developed his emotional journey over time that ultimately lead Dick to forego the Robin identity for his own new identity as Nightwing. Usually I will say that Wally is the first sidekick to ever fulfill the promise of succeeding his mentor but Dick really ought to be the first sidekick/partner to fully emerge into his own heroic identity separate from his mentor/partner. I'm also more open to see his relationship with Bruce as being more along the lines of brothers rather than some type of adoptive father/guardian. The same goes with Dick being a full-on partner in this dynamic duo rather than someone that needs to be continually taught/lead by the strong mentor figure of Batman. I totally agree with you 100% |
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 16, 2019 11:01:20 GMT -5
You like the depiction of their partnership, but those serials were terrible. Unfair. I "like", but you make a definitive statement. Really... you DON'T like. 
Yeah, as a matter of fact, I DO like the 1943 "BATMAN" serial. Most dismiss it because of racism against the Japanese, but we were AT WAR with Japan, and that sort of thing was common in MANY movies and an AWFUL lot of comic-books!
Besides... "Dr. Daka" (J. Carrol Naish) was a really cool fun character, very much in the tradition of Dr. Fu Manchu, only on a more low-level sort, and with stronger political ties. Even his paid American gangster henchmen didn't like him or his ideas, they were only in it for the money. And I loved the way he treated his beloved pet crocodiles like they were puppy dogs... until he fell into the pit at the end and they ATE him (OOPS!).
MEANWHILE... the depiction of the personalities of Bruce, Dick & Alfred were the MOST authentic to the comics ever seen, even to this day! I was greatly amused by Bruce's seeming split personality, when he put on 3 different personas-- 1)bored playboy (in the firm tradition of Don Diego Vega, alias Zorro), brilliant scientist (interesting that his lab was in the Mansion, down down in the cave), and, daredevil crime-fighter (MAN, do I love the action scenes in this film-- and it's clear, this guy is REALLY enjoying himself as Batman!).
I also love how Dick kids Bruce a lot about what he's doing, particularly the "bored playboy" routine which drives Bruce's girlfriend Linda crazy ("One of these days, you're gonna take that too far").
Alfred, crazy enough, looked NOTHING like the guy in the comics-- but, his personality, the devoted and determined yet nervous-nelly butler / crimefighting assistant who always wanted to be a detective, was intact. Soon after the movie came out, they changed Alfred's appearance in the comics to match, and he's been that way ever since. That means the look of Alfred most fans have come to know was based on actor William Austen!
Also crazy enough... "The Bat's Cave" (as they called it in the movie) debuted BEFORE any such cave turned up in the comics. Yeah, that came from the '43 serial as well.
The really ODD thing about the serial... is the Batman's identity is apparently known to someone in Washington, DC, who has personally asked him to look into the spy ring. This is exactly the sort of thing that British Intelligence at the time did with Simon Templar (The Saint).
Also, Police Commisioner Gordon is nowhere to be seen-- which is especially strange, given that he appeared in the very 1st Batman story in DETECTIVE COMICS #27 (May'39), and, Gordon stepped up and officially made Batman a "Deputy" of the Gotham Pilice Department in BATMAN #7 (Octo'41), almost exactly 2 years BEFORE the serial came out!
Instead of Gordon, we see a power and glory-mad Chief of Police, who's anxious to arrest Batman, so he can COERCE him into working FOR HIM. That makes me wonder what was going on behind-the-scenes when the film was written.
My MAIN problem with the serial... is that it goes on too long. Long before you get through all 15 chapter, it felt like Batman should have tracked down the baddies' HQ, or, they should have uncovered Batman's ID and killed him. I really wish, instead of a serial, that they'd done a whole series of 60-minute "B"-movies, each with a different villain. It's fun to imagine which actors from the era might have been cast in various roles.
Now... the 1949 BATMAN AND ROBIN is another matter. It's focused on an insane sci-fi gadget that makes no sense, and would have been a better fit in a SUPERMAN or JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA story. It's another in an endless series of serials where the villain's ID is a mystery all the way to the end, and by the time you learn the truth, you no longer care at all. There's too many plot points that run in circles. And the 3 leads-- Bruce, Dick and Alfred-- have all been recast, all inferior to the originals.
The one real upside is... Lyle Talbot is the MOST authentic Gordon EVER seen on film-- even to this day! Also, Jane Adams as Vicki Vale is a lot of fun.
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 16, 2019 11:10:54 GMT -5
This is exactly why I always think of Dick as Nightwing instead of being Robin. I guess it's easy to see things looking back over time, but ever since they came up with the costume they gave Tim Drake, I've wished they would have given that to Dick, and just KEPT him as Robin.
That's what the 90s WB BATMAN tv cartoons did!
Perez' original Nightwing costume was insanely overly-detailed, and was eventually streamlined down by others.
I don't think anybody really liked the original Earth-1 Jason Todd. And the Post-Crisis/New DCU Jason Todd was changed from one set of cleches to another (swapping out Dick Grayson for Dick Tracy Junior), then made so unlikable that he was KILLED OFF.
I suppose it was the "marketing reasons" that saw them eventually then create Tim Drake. At least he was treated decently. (I don't know what happened after that. Denny O'Neil's run as BATMAN editor pissed me off so much that after several years, I could no longer read any of the stuff he was over-seeing, and I COMPLETELY gave up on any new or current versions of the character... except in the TV cartoons.)
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 16, 2019 11:15:04 GMT -5
I'm also more open to see his relationship with Bruce as being more along the lines of brothers rather than some type of adoptive father/guardian. The same goes with Dick being a full-on partner in this dynamic duo rather than someone that needs to be continually taught/lead by the strong mentor figure of Batman. It occurs to me... one of the few writers who seemed to get this was Steve Englehart, in his all-too-brief run in DETECTIVE. Dick made a guest appearance in one story, then at the beginning of the next, was seen hanging out with Bruce in the Batcave.
They traded stories about which girls each was dating, and Dick said something like "You better leave the grown-up stuff to ME!" Laughing, Bruce replied... "Alright-- OUT!"
It was funny, because, at that point, apparently Dick had dated a LOT more girls than Bruce had!
These are two guys who've been best friends for a long time by then.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 16, 2019 11:43:22 GMT -5
I don't think anybody really liked the original Earth-1 Jason Todd. >Ahem< (raises hand) Not exactly. Max Allen Collins wrote him as rough around the edges so as to rationalize why it made sense for Bruce to take in an under-age sidekick (he was at greater risk NOT joining him). That character had already distanced himself from his former rage and criminal tendencies after only four issues. Jim Starlin then went back to that and went out of his way to make Jason as unlikable as possible because he was trying to get Robin killed off from Day One. He went in with an agenda and did everything possible to make the fans hate this kid so that he'd die, not because he inherently disliked the character before he went and messed with it, but because he was opposed to the very idea of a boy sidekick. Yup. Warner went ballistic when O'Neil and Starlin killed Jason Todd. They hadn't been notified and were dead-set against it, especially as the upcoming 1989 Batman film was originally slated to have a Robin in it. So the order went in pretty quickly to create a replacement Robin in time for Batman Returns (which was also originally supposed to have a Robin in it). A few more resources that might be of relevance here: All You Need to Know About Jason Todd (Pre-Death)A Brief History of the Development of Tim DrakeTim Drake: The Robin Nobody Wanted? |
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 17, 2019 12:31:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarifications!
I suppose looking back I'm remembering getting so increasingly disenchanted with so much "Post-Crisis" stuff (side-by-side with some that were brilliant handlings of series), that now, the 90s WB BATMAN cartoons are nearly the only thing I look back on with any fondness at all. Crazy that Hollywood has in many cases begun to treat characters better than their own publishers.
At the time, there were some fans who complained about how Jason Todd's 1st origin was a little too similar to Dick Grayson's. What none of those critics seemed aware of at all... was that his 2nd origin was a BLATENT swipe-- by Max Collins-- of Junior Tracy's, which I'd read in the book "TOMMY GUNS AND HARD TIMES". Junior's origin in the Warren Beatty film was, in my view, one of the BEST (few good?) things about it, as it was straight out of the early-30s newspaper story.
It's crazy... I grew up reading "DICK TRACY" in the papers in the 60s & 70s (but, unfortunately, only the Sundays, which wre like a "Reader's Digest" version of the stories), yet until I read those early-30s stories, I somehow had NO IDEA why Junior was called "Junior". Dick at first tried to help the boy, who was an orphan being "raised" to a life of crime by a street-thug, then, once his "guardian" was behind bars, Dick decided to ADOPT him. When given the choice of changing his name, the boy chose "Dick Tracy Junior", which I believe brought tears to Dick's usually hard-boiled eyes.
There was definitely a lot of deliberate character-destructive behavior going on in some DC books in the late 80s and beyond.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 17, 2019 16:39:24 GMT -5
At the time, there were some fans who complained about how Jason Todd's 1st origin was a little too similar to Dick Grayson's. What none of those critics seemed aware of at all... was that his 2nd origin was a BLATENT swipe-- by Max Collins-- of Junior Tracy's, which I'd read in the book " TOMMY GUNS AND HARD TIMES". I've heard this before. At some point, I'll have to read Junior Tracy's origin in order to see. Thanks for reminding me! |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 17, 2019 18:47:59 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #4 (February 1981)  "Against All Friends!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: B George Perez is now completely done with Marvel, and (coincidentally enough) this is the first issue in which he tackles the full penciling chores. Boy, does he want us to know it:   And yet we get a guest penciler next issue. Perez and deadlines...ouch. So this is the big inevitable first meeting between The New (Teen) Titans and the JLA, done entirely in this book and by this creative team, allowing the Titans to look a little more impressive on their own turf. Am I the only one who spent entirely too long flipping through JLA books from around this time period, trying to find the issue where Raven first comes to them, begging for their help? Well, as Wolfman has noted on several occasions, he was concerned with this title's continuity, and not anyone else's. On the one hand, this meeting of teams feels like it comes too early in the Titans run. And yet, with Wolfman writing, they of course prove a worthwhile match for the JLA, though Zatanna does note they are holding back for fear of hurting "the children,". Also worth noting, Kid Flash uses his super speed to create a whirlwind that knocks the JLA down. Wolfman really doesn't know how to use a super-speedster, or at least isn't interested in exploring just how over-powered Kid Flash should be in this situation. Barry isn't there, after all. But, more than providing a good throw-down to prove who's tougher, this meeting gives Wolfman the opportunity to fully articulate his vision for this New (Teen) Titans. He begins by acknowledging the existence of the old team for pretty much the first ever time in these pages:  Then provides pretty much the exact same circumstances that led to the creation of the original team (at least according to Bob Rozakis in Teen Titans #53) with the Titans fighting the JLA, the question of mind-control being raised, and the whole thing culminating with the JLA witnessing the birth of a new team. Wolfman seems to be intentionally echoing all of this:  Teen Titans #53  New Teen Titans #4 but Robin's explanation at the close is a deliberate inversion of Bob Rozakis' portrayal of the original Teen Titans as a Junior Justice League:  As completely nonsensical as so much of this story was, giving the new team an opportunity to show up the JLA and assert their independence alone would have been a worthwhile moment, but Wolfman and Perez go further, undermining that moment to create uncertainty and tension. After all, the Titans may have been right where the JLA was wrong, but they were just as mind-controlled (by Raven), and we witness the team crumbling in the final panels as a result:  It's clear that Raven is Wolfman and Perez's favorite character in these early issues, and what they do with her here is gutsy. Up until now, she has been all-knowing and all-powerful. In fact, she takes on the JLA by herself early in the issue and just decides to leave when she can't talk sense into them. Sure seems like she outpowers them all. Thus, seeing her at her lowest point by the end, utterly vulnerable even with all her power, is impressive. It also casts serious doubts on this team she created. Up until now, we've been given the sense that she formed this specific team because she needed these specific beings in order to stop Trigon. Now we know she went to the JLA first and only created this team as a second resort. Oh, and we definitely learn the full extent of what she did to Wally:  "Your power was one I desperately needed"? For what? Didn't we just watch her plan in action, in which she just hurled her team at the JLA and hoped for the best? Or have we not yet seen her plan in action? If that's the case, wouldn't that mean she KNEW this plan depicted in this issue would fail? In that case, why involve the JLA in her machinations at all? And I still neither care nor understand what the Fearsome Five are doing in this story. If Psimon works for Trigon, why wasn't the team there, helping out in this major battle to gain Trigon access to this world? And...is Trigon trying to gain access to our dimension or to our world? The script can't seem to make up its mind. And, speaking of Trigon, we get his origin here, and really he's just a generic villain with extra eyes. He wants to conquer more. Always more. Why? No particular reason. We are told he has no morals or empathy. He's just bad. Probably the only worthwhile thing about Trigon is that I now suspect he was an early influence on Mike Mignola's Hellboy. Just look at this dopey image of tween-age Trigon:  It just makes you want to go out and write a story about a dopey demon boy who loves pancakes and isn't particularly evil. Finally, this story does a lot to evolve Raven as a character. In addition to seeing her at her most powerful (up to this point) and most vulnerable (as noted above), we meet her mother, Arella, get a major hint about who her father is:  and FINALLY see Raven with the hood completely off (though Perez has some fleshing out to do here):  In short, there's a lot of progress and continued building of plans in this story, but also a lot of ill-considered awkwardness. This plot is a total mess, but both Raven and the Titans just got a lot more complex. IMPORTANT DETAILS: - 1st appearance of Raven without her hood - 1st appearance of Arella - Origin and second cameo appearance of Trigon - Team temporarily disbands |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 17, 2019 19:05:27 GMT -5
Saw this on the stands and the full reveal of Trigon was kind of scary-looking; but, it was a long while before I got to read the whole issue.
I doubt Trigon had much influence on Hellboy, compared to The Demon and Ben Grimm, as Mignola has always cited Kirby's monsters. Trigon takes some note of Kirby and Ditko monsters, so it's probably more the same well of ideas.
Not a lot to say about this issue or next,as I wasn't getting the seres regularly, yet, thanks to access. I do recall the whole Rosemary's Baby/Omen vibe, with Trigon and the image of Trigon revealed (issue 5?).
After that, I had issues 7 & 8, but not another until 12. from there, is was getting it regularly, apart from the two-issue Doom Patrol legacy story. Oh to have had a comic shop back then.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 17, 2019 19:08:26 GMT -5
I do recall the whole Rosemary's Baby/Omen vibe, Oooh. Very good call! We see Trigon in this issue, but only in flashback. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 17, 2019 19:13:18 GMT -5
We also learn that Raven wears not so much a costume as a uniform. Do the rest of them have bird names too? Her mom doesn't.  Marvel editorial never would have gone along with the whole "JLA adventure never seen" bit, but I guess DC was more Balkanized. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 17, 2019 21:30:49 GMT -5
That panel you posted where Robin says 'We're the Titans, not the Junior Justice League' to Batman sold me on the series... I was 100% hooked after that.
It's funny looking at these again.. I had forgotten just how much the story is all about Raven at the beginning.
It's no surprise this Titans team would beat that JLA roster.. they don't have a match for Wally... once you stop Zatanna from spell casting, it's over.
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Post by Chris on Apr 18, 2019 0:47:47 GMT -5
Marvel editorial never would have gone along with the whole "JLA adventure never seen" bit, but I guess DC was more Balkanized. That's definitely true. It also probably didn't hurt that the editor on Justice League was Wolfman's old Marvel Comics pal Len Wein. Further, Wein was in charge of Wonder Woman. Also, Batman and Green Lantern were written by Wolfman at the time. Interestingly (or not), Wolfman was also writing Action Comics, but Superman didn't appear here. It could be that Julius Schwartz and/or E. Nelson Bridwell told Wolfman that Superman couldn't appear in NTT. Or it could also be that Wolfman knew Superman could defeat the Titans and the Justice League combined without a fuss, and put a hurt on Trigon at the same time. Oh, wait, I just remembered... in that month's issue of Action Comics, Superman was in an alternate timeline and had to fight Vandal Savage in the prehistoric past.* Not that any of this matters, really, but I have a ridiculous memory for this sort of thing. If only I could remember if I have to pay the Feds and get money back from the state this year, or the other way around... *I actually misremembered this, and was thinking of the interstellar story with Brainiac from exactly one year later. My mind worries me. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 18, 2019 5:31:55 GMT -5
I'm trying to decide if this issue is filler/decompressed or another layer to what we think we know. I guess we see Ravens mom and Trigons origin , so there's that. KFlashes obsession was confirmed to be a form of mind control or influence , which was kind of obvious, but it's good to see it confirmed. I didn't really like seeing Batman easily beat Robin but he was under the influence of Psimon power. As for the role of the Fearsome Five, I'll just say that their role was to get them after the League and Trigon could handle the rest. It was interesting to see the JLA blow it and place the earth in jeopardy, even unknowingly. I felt an odd satisfaction seeing Ravens manipulation blow up in her face. She went to the league and after being rebuffed, she just lied to the Titans to get their help. Not a good way to start a relationship.
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