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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 5, 2020 17:58:09 GMT -5
It is true that Neal Adams did not sell comics too well on newsstands compared to a Sal Buscema or Curt Swan, he seemed to be assigned books that were dying anyway a couple of times. You could say he 'failed' to bring X-Men and Green Lantern up enough to save those two titles. As a little kid I saw a Deadman and would stare at a page not quite knowing how to read it. So collectors/adults loved him, but with actual readers/buyers at the time... kind of average at best I believe is what the numbers showed. Adams' work was a major victim of what's called "affadavit fraud". By the late 60s, national magazine distributors no longer required that unsold copies be returned. Even cutting off the title logo and returning that wasn't required anymore. They just accepted whatever the regional distributors said about how many copies were sold. Ambitious comics fan/dealers would go to the regional distributors and buy entire cases of popular comics before they even got to the stands, and the regional distributors would claim those as unsold. One of those fan/dealers, Robert Beerbohm, is working on a book about the history of the comics industry, and he posts about his findings on Facebook. He posted this about a month ago: Wow, I never knew about the comics that got intercepted before being distributed! I knew they were sort of treated by most distributors as an interchangeable commodity of bales on trucks. The only thing I ever heard of like the above was something to do with Howard The Duck #1 back in the mid '70s. This might be rather Mr. Rogers but I worried then, and even now, that the Liefeld type of characters might just lead some impressionable kids to take steroids thinking that was what an adult man was. The females of that era's 'look' often had the gravity-defying big boobs too so there's a worry about breast implants I suppose, but mainly it's the extreme muscles that genuinely bother me (up there with comics showing guns as magical things and 'fun'). That one cover I posted above made me laugh out loud, it seemed like Liefeld was aware of it himself and was trying to make light of it, so that seems good. There was some other artist I saw on a poster where everyone was exaggeratedly frowning/grimacing, gritted in pain, or for women sort of pouting, and I shook my head over that... a late '80s DC comic I saw advertised at the time when I pretty much vowed not to buy any DC or Marvel comics again ever. I only remember The Spectre was one of the characters in this group. I can't seem to find whatever it was now, it just it seemed like a parody. It was definitely not by Rob Liefeld anyway. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 5, 2020 19:27:15 GMT -5
Liefeld stated that he overpaid some of his artists and colorists. I heard that from other sources years ago. He was part of the crew that did a few books that had various artists ink over Kirby’s pencils. He and the others didn’t take a penny for it. All the money went to Kirby who was still alive. Yeah, he must be a monster. Just a point of clarification on that one; neither Liefeld nor Image instigated that project (wanna say it was either Greg Theakston or Mark Evanier; but, my memory is to hazy to say for certain).. It began elsewhere and those were the terms presented to everyone who showed interest and they divied up pages that weren't already spoken for. So, that really is no indication of Rob's character, beyond being a fan of Kirby. Kirby had sketches he had done for himself and the person who started the project saw them and talked to the Kirby's about having various people in the industry ink them and they liked the idea. I used to have the book collection. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 5, 2020 19:40:32 GMT -5
Adams' work was a major victim of what's called "affadavit fraud". By the late 60s, national magazine distributors no longer required that unsold copies be returned. Even cutting off the title logo and returning that wasn't required anymore. They just accepted whatever the regional distributors said about how many copies were sold. Ambitious comics fan/dealers would go to the regional distributors and buy entire cases of popular comics before they even got to the stands, and the regional distributors would claim those as unsold. One of those fan/dealers, Robert Beerbohm, is working on a book about the history of the comics industry, and he posts about his findings on Facebook. He posted this about a month ago: Wow, I never knew about the comics that got intercepted before being distributed! I knew they were sort of treated by most distributors as an interchangeable commodity of bales on trucks. The only thing I ever heard of like the above was something to do with Howard The Duck #1 back in the mid '70s. This might be rather Mr. Rogers but I worried then, and even now, that the Liefeld type of characters might just lead some impressionable kids to take steroids thinking that was what an adult man was. The females of that era's 'look' often had the gravity-defying big boobs too so there's a worry about breast implants I suppose, but mainly it's the extreme muscles that genuinely bother me (up there with comics showing guns as magical things and 'fun'). That one cover I posted above made me laugh out loud, it seemed like Liefeld was aware of it himself and was trying to make light of it, so that seems good. There was some other artist I saw on a poster where everyone was exaggeratedly frowning/grimacing, gritted in pain, or for women sort of pouting, and I shook my head over that... a late '80s DC comic I saw advertised at the time when I pretty much vowed not to buy any DC or Marvel comics again ever. I only remember The Spectre was one of the characters in this group. I can't seem to find whatever it was now, it just it seemed like a parody. It was definitely not by Rob Liefeld anyway. I doubt to many were influenced into taking steroids by bloated comic book characters, compared to professional athletes, models and actors. All three areas are riddled with use and have far greater reach and impact on the younger generation. Steroid use in Hollywood is rampant, as a fat burner and to help them maintain muscled bodies for roles. Models use them for the same reason and athletes to build muscles for their sport. The misconception is that steroids make you big. Steroids allow the muscles to recover more quickly, so you can work out more often and more intently, thereby increasing the value of your workout. The rest is down to diet and the type of workout. Weightlifters use steroids to build power muscles and get bulky, body builders go for mass and definition (mass comes from heavier weights, definition from lighter weights at higher reps). Track athletes use them to build leg muscles to pump out more speed, for longer duration. Steroid use is rampant in high school football, in many areas. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 12, 2020 8:58:58 GMT -5
Liefeld stated that he overpaid some of his artists and colorists. I heard that from other sources years ago. He was part of the crew that did a few books that had various artists ink over Kirby’s pencils. He and the others didn’t take a penny for it. All the money went to Kirby who was still alive. Yeah, he must be a monster. Just a point of clarification on that one; neither Liefeld nor Image instigated that project (wanna say it was either Greg Theakston or Mark Evanier; but, my memory is to hazy to say for certain).. It began elsewhere and those were the terms presented to everyone who showed interest and they divied up pages that weren't already spoken for. So, that really is no indication of Rob's character, beyond being a fan of Kirby.
Kirby had sketches he had done for himself and the person who started the project saw them and talked to the Kirby's about having various people in the industry ink them and they liked the idea. I used to have the book collection. My understanding from what I've read and the podcasts that I've listened to, is that Kirby originally drew the book as a Bruce Lee comic and shopped it to the Lee estate but it was turned down. Years later it was proposed as a book inked by popular artists in order to give Kirby the proceeds. It was published by Image and it sold on the strength of that companies creators. Artists that weren't as hot as the Image guys would never have pulled it off. It doesn't matter if Theakston or Evanier wanted to do it, it would never have been the hit it was without the star artists doing it. It's disingenuous to say that it has no bearing on a persons character when they work and don't receive a penny for another person benefit. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 12, 2020 11:15:19 GMT -5
Just a point of clarification on that one; neither Liefeld nor Image instigated that project (wanna say it was either Greg Theakston or Mark Evanier; but, my memory is to hazy to say for certain).. It began elsewhere and those were the terms presented to everyone who showed interest and they divied up pages that weren't already spoken for. So, that really is no indication of Rob's character, beyond being a fan of Kirby.
Kirby had sketches he had done for himself and the person who started the project saw them and talked to the Kirby's about having various people in the industry ink them and they liked the idea. I used to have the book collection. My understanding from what I've read and the podcasts that I've listened to, is that Kirby originally drew the book as a Bruce Lee comic and shopped it to the Lee estate but it was turned down. Years later it was proposed as a book inked by popular artists in order to give Kirby the proceeds. It was published by Image and it sold on the strength of that companies creators. Artists that weren't as hot as the Image guys would never have pulled it off. It doesn't matter if Theakston or Evanier wanted to do it, it would never have been the hit it was without the star artists doing it. It's disingenuous to say that it has no bearing on a persons character when they work and don't receive a penny for another person benefit. Okay, we are talking about two different books; I was talking about the Jack Kirby Heroes and Villains Sketchbook, that Greg Theakston put together, with individual sketches inked by various people.  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 12, 2020 11:46:25 GMT -5
This is the set of books that Liefeld and crew produced that I was taking about.  I have them and posted images on this forum somewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 15:06:11 GMT -5
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 15, 2020 20:38:35 GMT -5
Hmmm, those Phantom Force covers show that Jack Kirby didn't show feet a lot. I guess it was okay though when the 'King' didn't.  Liefeld's Shield looks good to me! |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 15, 2020 23:40:56 GMT -5
I didn't think Archie was that flush with cash to send it down the drain. No one has made those characters work since the 40s. Liefeld's track record on stuff like this isn't any better than anyone else who tried; so, I give it 6 months, tops. |
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Post by MDG on Dec 16, 2020 8:56:24 GMT -5
I didn't think Archie was that flush with cash to send it down the drain. No one has made those characters work since the 40s. Liefeld's track record on stuff like this isn't any better than anyone else who tried; so, I give it 6 months, tops. That may be what Archie's thinking too--get the pre-orders in. then cut out.
I always thought this when Malibu or whoever was starting a new "universe" ir reviving the Archie characters or Thunder Agents--it's not enough that they be good, but since you're playing in the same league, you've got to convince buyers to pick your book instead of a known quantity by Marvel or DC. That's a much harder lift.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 9:34:52 GMT -5
I didn't think Archie was that flush with cash to send it down the drain. No one has made those characters work since the 40s. Liefeld's track record on stuff like this isn't any better than anyone else who tried; so, I give it 6 months, tops. It's only a 4 issue mini series. Archie has tried several times before and like him or not Liefeld will get readers to check it out. Honestly I felt DC did the best with these characters in the past. Both with Impact! And the JMS reboot 10 yrs ago. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 16, 2020 12:13:29 GMT -5
I didn't think Archie was that flush with cash to send it down the drain. No one has made those characters work since the 40s. Liefeld's track record on stuff like this isn't any better than anyone else who tried; so, I give it 6 months, tops. It's only a 4 issue mini series. Archie has tried several times before and like him or not Liefeld will get readers to check it out. Honestly I felt DC did the best with these characters in the past. Both with Impact! And the JMS reboot 10 yrs ago. As I covered in my Other Guys thread, I've read every iteration of the MLJ/Archie heroes, up through Dark Circle (sampled the latter); and, for my money, the best was the one that was quashed before it launched. The Spectrum project. That was the first time I heard anything really interesting with those characters, to be done by people with real track records, like Steve Englehart and Len Wein. Archie pulled the plug before they printed a single issue, as they got cold feet about doing more mature superhero stories, while still producing material aimed at kids. That eventually led to them farming it out to DC, as the Impact line. Impact was okay; but, the Spectrum concepts sounded way more daring and more likely to intrigue new readers. |
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Post by brutalis on Dec 16, 2020 13:07:07 GMT -5
I will give it a look. Love the Archie heroes so 4 issues is easy peasy. Looks decidedly better than other stuff being published under the guise of Super Hero comics. Also looking forward to getting his GI Joe Snake Eyes mini-series once it is collected into trade.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Apr 27, 2021 8:17:23 GMT -5
Someone posted this in one of the discords I am in, knowing I would get the reference. Poor Rob will never live it down. The comic community will never forget lol  |
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Post by MDG on Apr 27, 2021 8:21:49 GMT -5
Someone posted this in one of the discords I am in, knowing I would get the reference. Poor Rob will never live it down. The comic community will never forget lol I guess he can be satisfied knowing that he created at least one iconic image. |
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