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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 18, 2022 10:29:31 GMT -5
I recently watched the pilot and the first episode of Twin Peaks for the first time. When it came out in 1990 I was finishing up my undergrad, was fairly newly married and all-in-all didn't have much time to watch TV. So it just kind of passed me by and I never got around to watching it over the ensuing years. I can definitely see why the Pilot had an impact on TV at the time, because it's a reasonable amount different than what we had seen before. I'm not entirely sure from the first two entries, but it feels at this point that "Who Killed Laura Palmer" is mostly a McGuffin and the show is about the interactions of the quirky characters. Overall it's interesting, but...damn...there is some very bad acting by a lot of the cast. The secondary cast is particularly egregious.
This does feel like a stepping stone that led to The X-Files and ultimately to the long-story orientation of current premium television.
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Post by berkley on Mar 18, 2022 11:18:21 GMT -5
Yes, berkley , Boone captured perfectly the meaaning of the knight errant, the sophisticated getleman who is also a warrior with a conscience. The show is almost always top-notch. For a bit of a preview of the Paladin character, watch the movie "The Tall T" (1955) in which he plays a nasty villain far smarter than any of his confederates. When he comes up against his near doppelganger (well, not in looks) in Randolph Scott, an equally tough customer, they engage not just in physical, but intellectual, even philosophical combat. One of the best Budd Boetticher/ Scott Westerns. PS: "Maverick" is almost always a good ride, too. Garner is so easy to watch, isn't he? He would ahve been a star in any era. Look for him in the Western spoof "Support Your Local Sheriff," in which he basically plays Brett Maverick again. It's a hoot... and filled with great character actors in supporting parts.
Hadn't heard of The Tall T, will add that to my list, along with Support Your Local Sherriff, which I have heard of before. Yes, Garner is easy to watch, another relaxed screen persona that never seems to be trying too hard to impress the viewer.
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Post by berkley on Mar 18, 2022 11:22:12 GMT -5
I recently watched the pilot and the first episode of Twin Peaks for the first time. When it came out in 1990 I was finishing up my undergrad, was fairly newly married and all-in-all didn't have much time to watch TV. So it just kind of passed me by and I never got around to watching it over the ensuing years. I can definitely see why the Pilot had an impact on TV at the time, because it's a reasonable amount different than what we had seen before. I'm not entirely sure from the first two entries, but it feels at this point that "Who Killed Laura Palmer" is mostly a McGuffin and the show is about the interactions of the quirky characters. Overall it's interesting, but...damn...there is some very bad acting by a lot of the cast. The secondary cast is particularly egregious. This does feel like a stepping stone that led to The X-Files and ultimately to the long-story orientation of current premium television. For me the acting of the cast was part of the oddness of the whole thing and as such it didn't bother me apart from one or two isolated cases. You're almost certainly right about the murder mystery: I think I read somewhere that Lynch didn't want it ever to be solved, but the studio insisted.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 18, 2022 11:38:27 GMT -5
US police departments are run a bit differently than the UK. We don't really have a national police force; each state, county and municipality creates its own law enforcement. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has jurisdictional limits on it, as do other Federal law enforcement agencies. Each state has its own laws (and counties and municipalities) and regulations governing the conduct of the police department , their jurisdiction (and limits) and the administration of them. In the modern age, they are well connected for sharing information; but, there are jurisdictional squabbles and some police departments have higher standards than others. I once had an American ask me why there was a need for the City of London Police and the Metropolitan Police. Easily explainable, but I understand the question. As a kid, while watching crime dramas, I wasn’t too sure about U.S. terminology and the like. Why were those cops (who I now know are state troopers) wearing wide-brimmed hats while the cop besides them had a different uniform - and a bus driver style cap? State troopers, sheriffs, city cops, federal agents, etc. Very confusing as a kid, but I understood it as an adult. There is one thing that confuses me, though: sheriffs are elected (they cover counties, right?) while city police chiefs and state police colonels are, if I have it right, appointed. Why is that out of sheriffs, state troopers and police chiefs, that only sheriffs are elected? And I really don’t understand, in city forces, what the difference is between a Chief of Police and Commissioner (I did Google once)? Obviously, Commissioner is higher, but Chief of Police would imply to me top guy (or woman) running the force. Just curious as to the difference between the two. And I’d really like to know why the ATF and DEA need to exist, could not the FBI handle alcohol, tobacco, firearms and drugs? Sheriff is an elected position, for a county. He then has "deputies" who carry out the actual police activities. More often than not, the sheriff comes from a law enforcement background, though not always. Some are more experienced than others. When I lived in Springfield, IL, we had an election for the Sangamon County Sheriff, with the two candidates consisting of a captain, from the Illinois State Police, and a Springfield police officer, who appeared in the Crime Stoppers public service announcements, on tv. The captain had way more experience in a leadership position, while the "Crime Stoppers Guy," had more public recognition. Guess which one got elected? It varies some, in other states. When I was going to school in Georgia, we had to stand security watch on the school grounds (Navy school) and had a briefing from the local police liason, since we would call in police for any criminal activities occurring on the grounds (it was an open campus, with no security perimeter fence). There were 5 different police departments with overlapping jurisdiction. There was the City of Athens police department, the County police, the County Sheriff's police (different agency...never did understand that one), the Georgia State Patrol and the University of Georgia police, who had jurisdiction within 250 yards of any property of the University (which meant a large area of Athens). State Police tend to patrol state highways and interstates, protect the state government, investigate crimes that occur across county lines and investigate corruption within the state (including corrupt local police and government officials). I live in Illinois, which has a reputation for political corruption (we send a lot of ex-governors to prison). County police patrol the county areas, especially smaller communities that don't have their own police force. I grew up in a little farm town, in Central Illinois, 20 miles from the nearest city. the Macon County Police would patrol through the town and respond to calls for police assistance and crimes. We had a town constable, but I believe it was a town council appointment and had no jail or force. A lot of the United States is still pretty rural and the county agencies (and state police) help police those areas, especially with things like meth trafficking. We've had issues in our area with ammonia tanks being tapped into by meth manufacturers. Ammonia is used with farm chemicals and often stored at local farm service bureaus, which are out in the country. The regulation of the Federal controls on Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms falls under the Department of the Treasury, since they levy the Federal taxes on those products. They set up the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (the ATF) to enforce those laws. The Federal Bureau of Investigations is under the Department of Justice and is tasked with enforcing and investigating Federal crimes, like kidnapping, money laundering, organized crime and such. They also handled counter-intelligence, until 9/11 changed some of the security structure. Under Hoover, they were the US counter-intelligence and also jockeyed with Army and navy Intelligence for the gathering of foreign intelligence, until the Central Intelligence Agency was formed, after WW2. The wartime Office of Strategic Services was more focused on strategic intelligence, related to the war effort, sabotage, and coordinating guerrilla activity (modeled after the Special operations Executive, in the UK). Army and Navy Intelligence focus more on collecting military specific information, in conjunction with the CIA. Again, there are jurisdictional squabbles. An ATF case might overlap with the FBI. If the agents-in-charge are good professionals, they will work together and pool resources; but, there are numerous instances of people not cooperating because someone is butt-hurt about who gets credit. The FBI also handles cyber-crimes and I have a third cousin who works for that department. The Drug Enforcement Agency was created to specifically enforce the narcotics laws and investigate drug trafficking, across state lines. Commissioner is usually a political appointment, while the Chief of Police is usually the administrative head of the police force. They are usually appointed to the job, but, it doesn't have a term limit, in most municipalities. The Commissioner might be in charge of emergency services and not just police. Elliott Ness, of the famed "Untouchables," was Director of Public Safety, in Cleveland, OH, during the Depression, when they had a serial killer operating (The Torso Killer, dramatized in the comic Torso, by Marc Andreyko and Brian Michael Bendis). he was in charge of police and fire departments. Again, it varies from city to city. When crimes cross jurisdictions, you pull in the police force covering the wider area. If crimes go across municipalities, the county or even state police become involved. When it crosses state borders, the Federal agencies become involved. You have to remember that the US Constitution gives specific powers to the Federal government; but, everything else resides within the states. The end result was a compromise between the early backers of a strong central government and those that wanted autonomy for the individual states. That has been a battle that has continued and was central to the American Civil War.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2022 11:51:20 GMT -5
Fascinating as ever, Cody. Especially this:
While I knew the FBI fell under the DoJ, I had no idea the ATF fell under the Department of the Treasury. So that explains things, then. I know there can be duplication in this world - and I’m sure it exists in the United States - but at least I know the reasoning behind ATF existing now.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 18, 2022 16:23:02 GMT -5
I recently watched the pilot and the first episode of Twin Peaks for the first time. When it came out in 1990 I was finishing up my undergrad, was fairly newly married and all-in-all didn't have much time to watch TV. So it just kind of passed me by and I never got around to watching it over the ensuing years. I can definitely see why the Pilot had an impact on TV at the time, because it's a reasonable amount different than what we had seen before. I'm not entirely sure from the first two entries, but it feels at this point that "Who Killed Laura Palmer" is mostly a McGuffin and the show is about the interactions of the quirky characters. Overall it's interesting, but...damn...there is some very bad acting by a lot of the cast. The secondary cast is particularly egregious. This does feel like a stepping stone that led to The X-Files and ultimately to the long-story orientation of current premium television. For me the acting of the cast was part of the oddness of the whole thing and as such it didn't bother me apart from one or two isolated cases. You're almost right about the murder mystery: I think I read somewhere that Lynch didn't want it ever to be solved, but the studio insisted. It varies from character to character, actor to actor. It's clear that Kyle MacLachlin and Sherilyn Fenn are being quirky for character reasons so the acting makes sense. On the other hand, Eric DaRe as Leo Johnson and Dana Ashbrook as Bobby Briggs, just aren't very good actors at all.
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Post by berkley on Mar 18, 2022 20:16:12 GMT -5
I think the character that annoyed me most was Nadine.
BTW, I just noticed that I made a mistake fiddling around with my earlier post: what I meant to say was "You're almost certainly right that", etc, etc; not "You're almost right".
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 18, 2022 21:57:12 GMT -5
Fascinating as ever, Cody. Especially this: While I knew the FBI fell under the DoJ, I had no idea the ATF fell under the Department of the Treasury. So that explains things, then. I know there can be duplication in this world - and I’m sure it exists in the United States - but at least I know the reasoning behind ATF existing now. The Department of the Treasury also administers the minting of currency and is in charge of the US Secret Service. The Secret Service came into being to investigate counterfeiting and grew into the role of being a protective service, for the President. In the 1800s, they actually used Pinkerton detectives to guard the president. The bulk of the Secret Service agent activities are devoted to counterfeiting investigations and enforcement and other Treasury law enforcement. The protective service is a smaller branch. if you ever watch To Live and Die in LA, the main character, played by William Peterson, is a Secret Service agent, trying to take down a master counterfeiter, played by Willem Dafoe. At one point, he also is seconded for protection duty, when the President makes a local political appearance. The Department of the Interior is in charge of the US Fish & Wildlife Service, which enforces federal laws relating to hunting and fishing and other criminal activities on Federal lands, like national parks. That department also has the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Office of Justice Services, known as the BIA Police, which enforce the law on tribal reservations, in conjunction with tribal police forces. The Justice Department also administers the US Marshals Service, which is the law enforcement arm of the Federal courts. They arrest and transport wanted fugitives, including escaped prisoners (as seen in The Fugitive and the sequel, US Marshals. They also administer the Federal Witness Protection Program, with protects witnesses in Federal criminal trials and those that are resettled under new identities, after testifying in criminal cases, especially against organized crime. In the 1800, Federal marshals often acted as law enforcement in territories, before they won statehood, such as Wyatt Earp. 9/11 changed several agencies that were folded into the Dept of Homeland Security (hate that name....way too fascist-sounding). Groups like the US Border Patrol and the US Coast Guard. Originally, the Coast Guard fell under the Dept of Transportation, in peace time, and the Department of the Navy, during war time. Then, 9/11 happened and they were moved into Homeland Security. They still fall under the Department of Defense, when so designated by the President or Congress. It's a mess, to be sure. If you've ever watched Yes, Minister/Yes, Prime Minister, with Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorne, you understand how the administrators of government try to grow their power by administering more areas. The same happens in US government. In regards to stuff like the BATF and DEA, you have to look at the political history of the US. There has long been a battle between societal forces who wanted to enforce temperance and those who wanted to drink whatever they liked. There were skirmishes about whiskey taxes back in George Washington's administration, at the beginning of the Federal government. In the late 1800s, there was a big push by temperance groups to pass and enforce "dry laws" (no alcohol can be sold) and "blue laws" (alcohol can only be sold on certain days and for certain hours). It ultimately resulted in Prohibition, when the US Constitution was amended to prohibit the sale and manufacture of alcohol. That led to a sharp rise in organized crime, as they provided protection for bootlegging operations; either smuggling in foreign alcohol (from Canada and elsewhere) or illegal breweries. They also provided protection for "speakeasies," illegal bars and nightclubs. In Chicago, this led to brutal gang war, with Al Capone at the top of the mob operations, in Chicago. The Chicago police and government were pretty much in his pocket. The Treasury Department assigned Elliot Ness to head operations to take down Capone, forming his famous Untouchables group. Now, its history is largely Hollywood BS; but, they did eventually get Capone on income tax evasion, which put him in jail and similar things were used to get to organized crime figures. Prohibition was repealed,; but, the Treasury still had to regulate the Federal excise taxes on alcohol products, as well as those on tobacco and the sale of firearms. The Drug enforcement Administration came into being in 1973, under the Nixon Administration, to centralize enforcement of Federal Narcotics laws. It's no coincidence that this came about after the drug culture arose alongside the student activist and anti-war movements. The agency grew in power under the Reagan Administration, in the 80s, with further drug hysteria, particularly with the trafficking of cocaine from Latin America. The real iron y is that while the DEA was trying to interdict drug flow, the CIA was carrying out drug trafficking operations in support of the Contras, in Nicaragua, and other clandestine operations in Latin America. there were several media investigations that uncovered CIA links to drugs that were flowing into US cities, in the late 80s and early 90s. Project Censored listed those investigations as their most censored news stories, in the early 90s. The FBI has been featured heavily in film and television, because J Edgar Hoover liked to foster the image of clean cut, heroic law enforcement officers, taking down organized crime. The reality was that the FBI was pretty soft on organized crime and spent more time go after smaller fish, like bank robbers Bonnie & Clyde, babyface Nelson, and John Dillinger (banks are Federally controlled and bank robbery is a Federal crime). Hoover hated the Warner gangster movies of the 30s and pushed heavily for films about heroic G-Men. You also got some about T-Men, or Treasury Agents (Secret Service and such). Of course, they ignored Hoover's more political use of FBI investigations. Effram Zimbalist Jr starred in The FBI, in the 60s and there were later FBI series. The Wild Wild West was a spy series was ostensibly about a pair of US Secret Service agents, but you didn't see them hunting many counterfeiters. Dick Tracy was a bit of a mix of the FBI and a city detective. Law enforcement in the Old West was nothing like what you see in movies. Wyatt Earp was known more for pistol-whipping criminals than gunfights and the Gunfight at the OK Corral was a political squabble, between Republican (the Earps) and Democrat (Sheriff Behan and The Cowboys) factions, in the area. Hollywood would rather have you believe it was about cattle rustling, murder (though there was plenty of that involved, after) and other corruption. How heroic the Earps were depended on which side of the political spectrum you were, until Wyatt Earp's memoir was published and early Hollywood took up the story, cranking out the legend, instead of the truth. Police shows have been similar, perpetuating more fantasy than actual policing. Of course, than name of the game is action and drama. Most people would rather watch the police shoot it out with desperate criminals than see Barney Fife issue tickets to Gomer for parking near a fire hydrant.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 18, 2022 22:06:10 GMT -5
ps, if you want to see something different, the pilot and several episode of the series, Hec Ramsey, are available on Youtube. The character is an experienced law man who is recruited to a booming town. He applies modern criminology procedures to crimes. In the pilot, he shows off his pistol, which had a shorter barrel, for easier draw, reflecting the detective pistols of modern police officers. He takes plaster castings of footprints, to help solve a crime and also tests paper. He learned of the methods in the Police Gazette, which was a national publication that actually existed, covering police techniques and crime reporting, as well as sports and such. The idea was a more modern detective, in the Old West, near the turn of the century, as America started to urbanize. It was part of the NBC Mystery Movie "wheel" of programming, where they rotated shows, with a new episode of a different one, each Sunday. The bloc included McMillan & Wife (a police commissioner and his wife, who helps him solve crimes), McCloud (a western law enforcement officer who comes to New York, on a case, and stays with the police force, inspired by the film Coogan's Bluff, with Clint Eastwood) and Columbo (LA detective lieutenant, investigating murders, where we see the killer do it and then watch Columbo figure it out and catch the killer out, inspired by a character in Crime & Punishment). Hec Ramsey didn't last long, as the ratings for it were lower and Boone got into a squabble with NBC and quit. Columbo was the best of the series, though I was always quite partial to McCloud. McMillan and Wife was pretty good, in its early years. Columbo actually gained a pretty big following, in the UK and even shot footage for an episode there, involving Honor Blackman, of The Avengers.
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Post by berkley on Mar 19, 2022 18:20:11 GMT -5
ps, if you want to see something different, the pilot and several episode of the series, Hec Ramsey, are available on Youtube. The character is an experienced law man who is recruited to a booming town. He applies modern criminology procedures to crimes. In the pilot, he shows off his pistol, which had a shorter barrel, for easier draw, reflecting the detective pistols of modern police officers. He takes plaster castings of footprints, to help solve a crime and also tests paper. He learned of the methods in the Police Gazette, which was a national publication that actually existed, covering police techniques and crime reporting, as well as sports and such. The idea was a more modern detective, in the Old West, near the turn of the century, as America started to urbanize. It was part of the NBC Mystery Movie "wheel" of programming, where they rotated shows, with a new episode of a different one, each Sunday. The bloc included McMillan & Wife (a police commissioner and his wife, who helps him solve crimes), McCloud (a western law enforcement officer who comes to New York, on a case, and stays with the police force, inspired by the film Coogan's Bluff, with Clint Eastwood) and Columbo (LA detective lieutenant, investigating murders, where we see the killer do it and then watch Columbo figure it out and catch the killer out, inspired by a character in Crime & Punishment). Hec Ramsey didn't last long, as the ratings for it were lower and Boone got into a squabble with NBC and quit. Columbo was the best of the series, though I was always quite partial to McCloud. McMillan and Wife was pretty good, in its early years. Columbo actually gained a pretty big following, in the UK and even shot footage for an episode there, involving Honor Blackman, of The Avengers.
We used to watch all of those in our house and liked them all, though predicably macMillan and Wife was probably the least popular with us kids. I never realised until now that that Hec Ramsey was the same actor as Paladin, I'll look forward all the more to seeing the later show again sometime. Our favourite was probably Banacek, with George Peppard, who we thought was just the coolest guy in the world, or one of.
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Post by Rob Allen on Mar 21, 2022 14:32:40 GMT -5
ps, if you want to see something different, the pilot and several episode of the series, Hec Ramsey, are available on Youtube. The character is an experienced law man who is recruited to a booming town. He applies modern criminology procedures to crimes. In the pilot, he shows off his pistol, which had a shorter barrel, for easier draw, reflecting the detective pistols of modern police officers. He takes plaster castings of footprints, to help solve a crime and also tests paper. He learned of the methods in the Police Gazette, which was a national publication that actually existed, covering police techniques and crime reporting, as well as sports and such. The idea was a more modern detective, in the Old West, near the turn of the century, as America started to urbanize. There's a current series that has a similar premise, but takes it in a humorous direction - Murdoch Mysteries from Canada. Highly recommended.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 16:02:16 GMT -5
Currently watching THE OUTER LIMITS, airing on Talking Pictures TV. While some episodes are “monster of the week” (I did expect something akin to THE TWILIGHT ZONE), some have been very chilling. I wonder, did 1963 viewers find this really scary?
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 21, 2022 16:23:18 GMT -5
Currently watching THE OUTER LIMITS, airing on Talking Pictures TV. While some episodes are “monster of the week” (I did expect something akin to THE TWILIGHT ZONE), some have been very chilling. I wonder, did 1963 viewers find this really scary? The short answer is yes. Kids my age (Keep in mind I was all of none years old) thought it was way creepier than "Twilight Zone" because of all the often frightening-looking monsters and aliens. Not taht TZ was a waste to watch, but OL more frequently relied on visceral rather than subtle ways to scare you. OL trading cards were quite the hit for a while, because of course they focused on the many creatures that made the show a hit with kids. A sample:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 17:52:46 GMT -5
Fascinating.
I confess, my expectations of the show were twists, subtlety, etc. My mistake. I shouldn’t have expected it to be akin to THE TWILIGHT ZONE.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 21, 2022 18:02:31 GMT -5
Fascinating. I confess, my expectations of the show were twists, subtlety, etc. My mistake. I shouldn’t have expected it to be akin to THE TWILIGHT ZONE. As the opening suggested, OL was playing into the paranoia and fears of that time. Remember, it premiered about a year after the Cuban Missile Crisis acquainted many of us with the fear that the world could end at any second. (One day -- not sure on which of the 13 days she said it -- my fourth grade teacher told us that we might never get home again because we were in range of the Russian missiles 90 miles off Florida. Jeebus, did that wake us up but fast.) TZ did do some episodes in the sword of Damocles vein, but not as often; it tended to have many whimsical, fantasy-driven episodes as well. For those who've never seen that notorious opening:
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