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Post by Randle-El on Nov 12, 2014 11:20:05 GMT -5
I fall in the "writer" camp. The art can be prettier than anything, but if the writing sucks, I'm out, while I will endure lesser art if the writing is top-notch, which is where I feel that dupont makes an important distinction. I don't particularly "like" Chris Bachalo's artwork, but that's a matter of personal taste, as it is technically acceptable, while "art" produced by Rob Liefeld or Greg Land (in his porn-tracing mode) is just unacceptable. That said, I tend to follow characters pretty strongly, so I endured Land on both Uncanny X-Men and Iron Man because of my love for the characters, but then throw into the mix the idea of a favorite writer on a character I don't care about. I'm a huge fan of Peter David and will read pretty much anything he writes, but if they announced a new Wolverine or Silver Surfer book tomorrow with him writing it, I would avoid it due to the characters. Chris Bachalo -- it's interesting you bring him up because he's an artist that I've gone back and forth on as far as liking and disliking. In the 90s he seemed to morph from a more conventional Western comic book style into a more manga-influenced style. The manga stuff really wasn't to my liking, whereas his art before that wasn't bad. More recently, his style has changed yet again and I found myself disliking it enough at first that I was going to stop reading Wolverine and the X-Men. But for some reason I plowed through and warmed up to his art a lot more. It's quirky and different and I can't quite find the right descriptors for his style.
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 12, 2014 12:08:28 GMT -5
I fall in the "writer" camp. The art can be prettier than anything, but if the writing sucks, I'm out, while I will endure lesser art if the writing is top-notch, which is where I feel that dupont makes an important distinction. I don't particularly "like" Chris Bachalo's artwork, but that's a matter of personal taste, as it is technically acceptable, while "art" produced by Rob Liefeld or Greg Land (in his porn-tracing mode) is just unacceptable. That said, I tend to follow characters pretty strongly, so I endured Land on both Uncanny X-Men and Iron Man because of my love for the characters, but then throw into the mix the idea of a favorite writer on a character I don't care about. I'm a huge fan of Peter David and will read pretty much anything he writes, but if they announced a new Wolverine or Silver Surfer book tomorrow with him writing it, I would avoid it due to the characters. Chris Bachalo -- it's interesting you bring him up because he's an artist that I've gone back and forth on as far as liking and disliking. In the 90s he seemed to morph from a more conventional Western comic book style into a more manga-influenced style. The manga stuff really wasn't to my liking, whereas his art before that wasn't bad. More recently, his style has changed yet again and I found myself disliking it enough at first that I was going to stop reading Wolverine and the X-Men. But for some reason I plowed through and warmed up to his art a lot more. It's quirky and different and I can't quite find the right descriptors for his style. Bachalo's work is interesting in that he spent about fifteen years working on page design rather than actually telling a story. The individual pages were often very interesting, but there was little to no flow. I don't see that as being particularly manga influenced-- his figures and faces certainly are, though-- so much as taking the '80s "designer comics" trend of creators like Dean Motter to an absurd degree. (A lot of those guys were Canadian like Bachalo, so there's an influence there.) A few years ago, he started to rein the design elements in, and his storytelling improved immensely. Spider-Man was a good fit for him.
Steampunk is the most singularly impenetrable comic I've ever read. Bachalo's page design was ridculous, and Joe Kelly's scripts did them no favors in delineating what was going on. It's this mess that looks beautiful, but is practicaly unreadable.
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Post by MDG on Nov 12, 2014 15:03:02 GMT -5
I'd say "story." That could come from the writer, but the impetus could've come from the artist (or, in the old days, the editor). If we're talking good comics, you can't really pull the two apart.
When there's been an artist I've followed, like Wrightson or Corben, whether the pictures come together to tell a story is incidental (though they both do it well). But with someone like Toth or Ditko or Kirby, the way they handle the art (when firing on all cylinders) is at the service of the story and lifts up the whole enterprise Like the Krigstein example above).
But--with the exception of Toth--my favorite comic artists are cartoonists. They handle the whole thing.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 12, 2014 15:08:19 GMT -5
I cannot have bad art with a good story. And I cannot have good art with a bad story. I tend to feel that way too, but can be more forgiving if I like the art. (late 80s X-Men anyone) I do feel though, that if we all stuck to the above we would have VERY small collections.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 12, 2014 15:27:16 GMT -5
I get the sense from older fans and fanzies that everyone used to be (sensibly) on my side - that the artist was always a bigger draw than the writer. And I'm wondering why that changed? I think it may have started in the 90s with the popularity of Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore influencing a new generation of writers. You had the like of Ennis, Ellis, Busiek, Waid, and Millar coming through in a "cult of personality" that usually surrounded the hype seen with artists (the entire Image story in the early 90s), and fans responded. We started to follow books for words AND pictures. The industry is apparently more geared around editorial than creative at the moment (how that works I dont know. is it that publishers will exert control over creators to maintain the direction they want ? i.e. New 52) If I get time to choose, to reflect first, I tend to be visually attracted to a book, but have found on reflection recently, that the books I'm most fond of, that I can return to more than once, are by a finite amount of writers. I love Jack Kirby, and I love Captain America, but reading, actually reading Jacks Cap(75-77 that is) is ... difficult for me(and when I do I have to just read dialogue bubbles). Dont start me on 10 years of Gruenwald. Yet Brubakers Cap is a book I will reread for years to come (helps that I really like Epting and Guice). As an aside are there any Butch Guice fans lurking out there? His work on some of the Cap stories just blew me away. I would see multiple artistic influences in his work(felt like I was reading a Tuska Iron Man at times), sad to see him go.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 15:52:13 GMT -5
The idea of the superstar artist really got traction in the aftermath of Image and as a reaction to the content in the early Image books which featured superstar artists doing essentially a string of pin ups and calling it a story. When that bubble burst, it created a tide of people latching on to the idea of I need story and books need writers. It coincided with a flus of great writer driven material on the market at the time form the likes of Gaiman, Moore, Busiek, Waid et. al. and became the kind of marriage trends are made of.
It's origins go back into the 80s though, with the influx of talent called the British Invasion spearheaded by Karen Berger and started with Moore coming to DC to do Swamp Thing. These writers were getting a lot of buzz, but the attention, hype, and sales were going to superstar artists, Byrne and Perez and their generation on the heels of the Neal Adams Steranko revolution, followed by the McFarlane, Lee, etc. generation on the Marvel books first and then on the Image launch books. Everything was about the artists and such until people realized they weren't getting quality story entertainment for their $$ and the counter-reaction ensued. People noticed these strong writer driven books chugging along giving quality stories month after month despite the quality of the art (sometimes paired with great artists, sometimes merely with competent artists) and the new wave of the superstar writer was heralded. And then this chugged along for a while and still has a strong presence in the industry, but the pendulum has swung back towards the artists a bit too over the last decade or so. Mostly because the net of superstar writer was cast too wide and a lot of writers included were not consistent or not as good as the hype because everyone was being labelled the next superstar writer instead of letting people create a body of work that announced that itself, just as every guy with a hot issue or 2 or pin up got labelled the next hot artist previously and many failed to live up to the billing.
For me, comics are words and pictures working together to tell a story, so the story is primary. I want a good story told well. A good writer may have a great story but it is in the hands of the artist to tell it well. Artists can tell a story well, but if its not a good story to begin with, it's still not a good story told well. There's an alchemy there, and if it works, the end product is greater than the sum of its parts. If it doesn't work, you can still get decent comics, but ones which, to borrow a phrase, are replete with yeah buts-if was a great story, yeah but it could have been great with better art, or gorgeous art and storytelling, yeah but I wish the story had more to offer....
If you give me a good story with bad art I find myself wishing it had been told in prose to avoid the art, if you give me great art with poor story I find myself wishing I just had a portfolio of the artist's work and not the comic itself. I want a good story told well. The pendulum can swing a little to favor one side or the other (art or writing) at times, but in the end they have to work together and both measure up to effectively tell the story or it's not worth the time it takes to read it or the paper its printed on.
On the artistic side, the simplest art can tell a story well as well as the most complicated decorative art, the style is not important, the storytelling is, the style is a matter of taste, the storytelling is matter of technique. On the writing side, writers need to remember the story is being told visually and pace and design the story accordingly, no having the characters do twelve things in one panel and expect the artist to be able to convey that with one image and when they cannot, the telling of the story suffers (even if the story itself may be good, the writer has to convey it and construct it so that it can be effectively told visually). Again it's technique and craft over ideas and plots that define good writing for me. A writer still has to find a way to tell the best story idea effectively in a visual medium, if he or she cannot, it's not a good story in the end.
-M
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 12, 2014 16:53:55 GMT -5
I've always liked Guice's work. I think he peaked with his wash style in Resurrection Man and the Tangent: Superman comic, which is a technique I'd like to see him use more often. He's currently doing some good work with Chuck Dixon on Winterworld at the moment.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 12, 2014 16:58:53 GMT -5
My understanding has always been as follows:
1930-1950s: Writer has a little more clout in driving the book. Frames are small, and the writing is dense.
1960s: The Marvel method (and Stan Lee's hyping of the bullpen) puts the spotlight on the artist
1980s: Alan Moore starts attracting readers to the idea of superstar writers. Suddenly, certain writers can sell anything, regardless of the artist. John Byrne becomes a sensation only after convincing folks that, in addition to being a strong artist, he had a hand in the concepts driving the Claremont X-Men run and then goes on to draw AND write Fantastic Four. Simonson draws attention as an artist AND writer on Thor.
1990s: Suddenly, it's all back to the artists. McFarlane, Liefeld, Lee, Portacio, Keith, Bagely, etc. Numerous writers and artists go on record lamenting that any hot artist can get the writing chores on a book without a prior track record.
2000s: The pendulum swings back to writers being king, perhaps in part due to Kevin Smith(?). Morrison, Ellis, Bendis, Millar, etc.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Nov 12, 2014 18:17:28 GMT -5
1990s: Suddenly, it's all back to the artists. McFarlane, Liefeld, Lee, Portacio, Keith, Bagely, etc. Numerous writers and artists go on record lamenting that any hot artist can get the writing chores on a book without a prior track record. 2000s: The pendulum swings back to writers being king, perhaps in part due to Kevin Smith(?). Morrison, Ellis, Bendis, Millar, etc. You're probably quite right Shaxper, though I feel the pendulum started swinging mid 90s. I think we, as in those buying at the time, were burnt out on empty promises and overblown artistic egos. Marvel and DC were delivering some of their weakest content in over a decade, so the appearance of really good writers stood out , considering what we were living with.
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 12, 2014 18:32:54 GMT -5
1990s: Suddenly, it's all back to the artists. McFarlane, Liefeld, Lee, Portacio, Keith, Bagely, etc. Numerous writers and artists go on record lamenting that any hot artist can get the writing chores on a book without a prior track record. 2000s: The pendulum swings back to writers being king, perhaps in part due to Kevin Smith(?). Morrison, Ellis, Bendis, Millar, etc. I'd say the change is more a later '90s phenomenon, perhaps in reaction to the artist-driven days of early Image. I'd say Grant Morrison on JLA was probably the most significant moment as it gave a well-regarded cult writer a massive audience on a book that wasn't particularly artist driven. (For all the love for Busiek and Waid on Marvels and Kingdom Come, Alex Ross was a major part of its success.) Neil Gaiman was kind of an outlier previous to this point, but with Morrison's JLA, the more commercial end was the medium was paying more attention to who was writing the book than drawing it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 12, 2014 21:11:25 GMT -5
Fair points, gentlemen. I was away from comics in the late '90s, as (I suspect) were many. But the trend definitely got bigger in the 2000s. I suddenly heard folks in comic shops talking about Bendis the way folks used to talk about McFarlane.
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 12, 2014 21:44:52 GMT -5
Fair points, gentlemen. I was away from comics in the late '90s, as (I suspect) were many. But the trend definitely got bigger in the 2000s. I suddenly heard folks in comic shops talking about Bendis the way folks used to talk about McFarlane. I would definitely agree with that. I think Quesada's Marvel revolution around 2000 pretty much cemented the "writer first" mentality in many fans. He was definitely approaching the kind of writers who were doing Vertigo and creator-owned work in the '90s to write more commercial superhero books, and a lot of them skyrocketed in popularity. For a few years, I'd say it worked quite well as a marketing tool, but eventually, you'd see revolving event comics come creeping back. (Also, many of those writers who profited from that boost in popularity have gone back to primarily working on creator-owned material with the difference being that they can now make a living off just that work. Brubaker, Kirkman, Fraction, Rucka, Millar, etc, with some creators like Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis occasionally dipping their feet back in Marvel's pool for limited runs.)
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Post by MDG on Nov 12, 2014 22:00:08 GMT -5
My understanding has always been as follows: 1930-1950s: Writer has a little more clout in driving the book. Frames are small, and the writing is dense. 1960s: The Marvel method (and Stan Lee's hyping of the bullpen) puts the spotlight on the artist I think from the 30s to the Bronze Age, the editor was most responsible for the tone and content of comics. Within that framework, artists and writers were pretty interchangeable. it was probably the fact that Stan was so busy as editor of the line that he "outsourced" the writing to Kirby and Ditko. And ironic that he had much batter luck with them than with other writers like Lieber and Bernstein.
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Post by dupersuper on Nov 12, 2014 22:46:05 GMT -5
Writers
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Post by JKCarrier on Nov 12, 2014 23:59:04 GMT -5
Good art can get me to pick up a comic, but good writing is what will keep me coming back.
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