|
Post by commond on May 20, 2023 6:08:55 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on May 20, 2023 6:23:37 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. I don't think Kirby could've created Thanos. It's not his kind of character. But if he had, and if he'd depicted him exactly as Starlin has, it's for damned sure I'd still hate him.
Cei-U! I summon the tedious titan!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2023 7:11:43 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. But not everyone thinks that way, right? In fact, with all due respect, are you referring to maybe just a few people? I’m not condemning you (or anyone) for having a view, but is this more than anecdotal? Is appreciation of Darkseid being rooted in Kirby worship really a thing, in all honesty? I doubt I even took notice of creators’ names for my first several years of comic reading. Prior to that, Darkseid just looked so menacing and scary. I liked any villains from other planets, especially dictators. Doctor Doom was probably my favourite Earth-based villain. But I really like any space-based villain. While I can appreciate a creator, there’s never any worship - and I’d wager many, including members here, might say the same. I mean, Man of Steel by Byrne is still my favourite Superman origin arc, but you could not pay me to buy Spider-Man: Chapter One. I like Kirby’s work on Fantastic Four, but there are other Kirby projects I may feel indifferent to. I like a lot of Byrne’s work, but for me, he just wasn’t the right fit for the Hulk. It’s the same with any creative person. I can think of a film director who really impressed me with a particular film, while shaking my head when that same director does something else that doesn’t appeal to me. I know you weren’t posting that comment at me or anyone in particular, but in the interests of respectful discussion, it would be interesting to know just how many people in comic circles based their love of a character on worship of a creator. I’m sure *some* people like that exist, but is it widespread?
|
|
|
Post by foxley on May 20, 2023 7:56:26 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. Anybody on this board could tell that I am last person you could accuse of Kirby worship. I'm not a big fan of Darkseid (or cosmic stories in general), but I find Darkseid a way more interesting character than Thanos.
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on May 20, 2023 8:41:47 GMT -5
Rick Jones - No surprise here. Total luck-sack and whiny little punk. Wolverine - Best there is, blah, blah, blah, convoluted back story, blah, blah, blah... Deadpool - After he became an insipid cartoon, not the bad-ass mercenary that...shudder...Rob Liefeld created. Harley Quinn - Bargain store Deadpool, but hey, if it worked for Marvel, you knew DC would ape it somehow.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2023 9:09:38 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. It all depends on how you approach your comics. I love Kirby; but don't for a minute think everything he did was genius or even original. That said; he did so much that was, though it doesn't always hit you, at first. I was not a fan of his art, in the 70s, but started getting more into it, when I was an adult, in the 80s and 90s. It helped that I saw more of it and things like New Gods, rather than an odd issue at Marvel, before he threw up his hands and went to work in animation. Darkseid and the New Gods is very abstract and it took time, experience and re-readings to come to conclusions about much of it. Once you see how Jack approached myth and how he talked about philosophical issues, his work takes on a different perspective. I have always loved mythology and that is why I ended up writing a whole thread about his work on the New Gods and Eternals. It was modern myth, with big, metaphorical pieces that don't make sense as superhero stories and are disjointed even as myth; but, there is a power in there and there are musings on life, freedom, politics, corruption, rule of the mob, science outstripping ethics, alienation and even love in there, if you look beyond the occasional goofy sequence or stilted dialogue. In fact, the best hint I ever got was either from The Jack Kirby Collector or Comic Buyer's Guide where someone talked about stringing together the words lettered in bold to form these bizarre, but interesting beat poems. It fits. You can read New Gods and Eternals as epic poetry. As far as Thanos goes, I also enjoy Starlin; but, there is a very small body of really good Thanos material and it was mostly in the 1970s. Infinity Gauntlet was fine; but I kind of felt the only improvement over the previous Warlock-centric saga was the search for the Infinity Stones, as he had acquired the Soul Gems (before they were renamed Infinity Stones) rather quickly and easily. The rest had some interesting moments; but, the story structure was not that different and a lot of it just felt like he was doing his version of Crisis. That stuff was A-list material though, but each subsequent trip to that well was less and less. Darkseid was mostly poorly used in other hands, but even Starlin overdid Thanos.
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on May 20, 2023 11:19:14 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. I do not know about anyone else, but I do not worship Kirby to any degree; I simply recognize Darkseid as a great character and one who is superior to the cheap knock-off named Thanos. Speaking of Thanos... Thanos. Dumbest motivation for a villain I ever heard. Yes, yep and yeah. Comic and MCU Thanos was just more Marvel "biggest ever! Its epic!!" crap. Rick Jones - No surprise here. Total luck-sack and whiny little punk. Time to re-post Rick's message to you: Yeah, like the Doom Patrol aped the X-Men...oh...wait...
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 20, 2023 15:26:18 GMT -5
I'm not surprised that Thanos is getting roughed up in this thread. Often, when a character blows up in popularity, there is a backlash and hate that follows. I just never liked the character. In fact, I thought the movie version was actually a little better than the comics version. Not by much, but enough that I was able to sit through the movies without shouting "Get over her already!" at the screen. My problem with Darkseid is that he was poorly used and there weren't many stories written to do the concept justice. He was underutilized by Kirby as just a background character and he never ( from the books I've read ) got his hands dirty in punch ups. I don't think Kirby underutilized him - I believe he was supposed to be the shadowy figure in the background pulling the strings, until later on when he would come to the fore. Which is why there weren't punch-ups in the Kirby stories. An article I read long ago described it this way - In the original comics, it was the Forever People who were constantly pitted against Darkseid himself rather than one of his minions; this was because they were the only New Genesis force capable of surviving such a confrontation philosophically (no one was capable of surviving one physically, so Kirby never set such a thing up). Source - Amazing Heroes #183, September 1990
Kirby never meant for Darkseid to be regularly portrayed as a punch-em-up villain but as a philosophical point of view. Not saying anyone has to like him, just saying that fight scenes are not what the character was designed for. That said, everyone after Kirby never really had much idea what to do with him, so yeah, poorly used. There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. I actually agree with you to some extent on that. But speaking only for myself, I was never that impressed with Darkseid either, I just thought he was a better character than Thanos. Anybody on this board could tell that I am last person you could accuse of Kirby worship. Dude, 90% of my Kirby reading was Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on May 20, 2023 16:22:06 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him.
People do rave about Thanos, don't they? I mean in the sense that Thanos is still a fan favourite character and in fact seems to be a character lots of writers like as well - e.g. Kieron Gillen in his Eternals series, where it seemed plain to me that he was more interested in Thanos than in the title characters, much as Neil Gaiman seemed to be more interested in Iron Man than in his version of the Eternals.
I'm not sure how'd you go about measuring this kind of thing but I would guess that Thanos is generally a more popular character with both fans and creators than is Darkseid. But regardless, is it really fair to say that no one would think Darkseid an interesting character if they weren't blinded by an irrational adoration of Kirby's comic book creations?
|
|
|
Post by berkley on May 20, 2023 16:28:48 GMT -5
I wonder how many of the most disliked characters in this thread would also appear in a list of favourite characters? Quite a few, I'd imagine. Probably Thanos, Superman, even some less prominent characters like Mantis and Moondragon (both favourites of mine, as it happens).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2023 16:35:19 GMT -5
A good counter to any such argument is the fact I’d wager (no proof) that a lot of people came to characters before they even knew creators’ names. This is a point I do not feel should be understated.
It has never been my experience, whether talking about comics, music or films, that people give someone a free pass. Maybe I mix in circles where that doesn’t happen. But I can chat with someone about their favourite band, such as the Beatles, and almost always, a person might, if the topic comes up, tell you the Beatles albums they don’t like.
I like the Beatles’ music. Big fan. But I don’t like Paperback Writer or Yellow Submarine. My appreciation of the Beatles doesn’t render me incapable of disliking some of their work, subjective though it’ll always be.
I can enjoy a lot of Stephen King’s books, whether they be novels or short stories, while being critical of Rose Madder, a novel I found to be bloated, uneven and anti-climatic. Me being impressed by the likes of Salem’s Lot and Desperation does not mean I would worship King and give a book a free pass if I didn’t like it.
I’m not condemning anyone here for having an opinion, but whenever I’ve chatted about comic creators, here or offline, I have rarely, if ever, come across anyone who appears to worship a creator - or give them any kind of free pass. I’ll praise Byrne all day long for Superman, the FF and so much else, but the minute Trio or the Trek Photo comics come up, I’ll be very critical.
Such things will always be anecdotal. No-one is likely to every say, “I worship Jack Kirby.” I just feel comic fans (or music fans or wrestling fans) are a discerning bunch - and a vocal one. Fans of most things will spend their money wisely. And spend their time wisely. I could never prove it, but I’d wager people who like Darkseid like him because he’s Darkseid - and appeals to them in some way.
|
|
|
Post by commond on May 20, 2023 18:16:47 GMT -5
There is an element of Kirby worship about Darkseid. I'm sure if Kirby had created Thanos people would be raving about him. But not everyone thinks that way, right? In fact, with all due respect, are you referring to maybe just a few people? I’m not condemning you (or anyone) for having a view, but is this more than anecdotal? Is appreciation of Darkseid being rooted in Kirby worship really a thing, in all honesty? I was referring to online discussions such as these, not the wider appreciation of the characters. I'm sure there are a great many people who are oblivious to the fact that Jack Kirby created Darkseid. Before I go any further, let me stress that I referred to Kirby worship as "an element" of the bias towards Darkseid. I'm sure it's not the sole reason. People are entitled to their opinions, and so on. Do I think Kirby worship is a real thing? Absolutely. Do I think in a discussion of Kirby's Darkseid vs Starlin's Thanos that you're going to see some of that bleed through? 100% Maybe they're right. Who's to say what's right or wrong? However, when I read people wax lyrically about Kirby's work, that's not something I always see on the page. I have nothing against the Darkseid character. I get what Kirby was trying to do. What I don't get is what is so amazing about Kirby's Darkseid that makes Thanos cheap by comparison. I get that people may dislike the premise of the character, the over-saturation of him in the comics and movies (even if some of that seems a little bit tall poppy syndrome to me), but I don'r see how anyone can claim that the character didn't have legs. If he's a cheap knockoff then he's the most successful knock of all-time, doggone it. I have my own limit when it comes to Thanos. I'm not a big fan of Marvel's cosmic stories, and I would probably rate Kirby ahead of Starlin.. I tapped out the Infinity Gauntlet, a series I was heavily into when it came out. However, I get somewhat irritated by the instant dismissals of the character and his worth. Why do they always go after Thanos? Isn't Warlock just as bad, if not worse? It also bothers me when people say that Bronze Age stuff is acceptable but dismiss the later stuff as though it was Marvel's version of the original Star Wars trilogy. I don't mean to attack anyone with this post. Just some frustrations I have.
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on May 21, 2023 0:17:17 GMT -5
Namor. Always disliked this green-speedo'd, wing-footed, metrosexual douchebag. Wolverine. Liked him during the Byrne/Cockburn X-Men runs. I dunno when he became intolerable, since I stopped reading the comics at UXM #191, but neither the bone claws nor the ability to regenerate from a skeleton have struck me as inspired developments. Deadpool + Lobo. Combining these two characters, 'cause they're basically just two manifestations of a single, obnoxious, ultraviolent "parody" character with ludicrous regenerative abilities. Captain Nation-State. Doesn't matter which country's being represented, GTFO with that BS.
Honourable mention goes to the post-Crisis Batman, post-Crisis Joker, Golden Age/Silver Age Robin, Silver Age Superman, and any trashy version of Harley Quinn.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on May 21, 2023 1:48:43 GMT -5
I have nothing against the Darkseid character. I get what Kirby was trying to do. What I don't get is what is so amazing about Kirby's Darkseid that makes Thanos cheap by comparison. I don't think it's that Darkseid is so amazing he makes Thanos look cheap. As I said above, I'm not all that impressed with Darkseid either. It's that Thanos very literally looks like a ripoff of Darkseid. And Jim Starlin pretty much said exactly that. Also, Kirby put a lot of thought into Darkseid and the political machinations of the character. Thanos just wants to kill a lot of people to impress a woman. That said... I get that people may dislike the premise of the character, the over-saturation of him in the comics and movies (even if some of that seems a little bit tall poppy syndrome to me), but I don'r see how anyone can claim that the character didn't have legs. Oh, it does. There are millions of guy out there who can relate to Thanos and his unrequited love of a girl who ignores him. Darkseid was written as a philosophical character serving a theme, and let's face it, the average casual reader probably isn't going to really buy a comic about that. But he can relate to not getting the girl no matter how hard he tries. Darkseid never really caught on until he was diluted into a generic power-mad dictator who punched superheroes a lot and struck melodramatic poses. If he's a cheap knockoff then he's the most successful knock of all-time, doggone it. No, that was the band Oasis! I have my own limit when it comes to Thanos. I'm not a big fan of Marvel's cosmic stories, and I would probably rate Kirby ahead of Starlin.. I tapped out the Infinity Gauntlet, a series I was heavily into when it came out. However, I get somewhat irritated by the instant dismissals of the character and his worth.Now you know how I've felt for the last 35 years every time the name "Barry Allen" comes up. Why do they always go after Thanos? Isn't Warlock just as bad, if not worse? I'd say so. I don't mean to attack anyone with this post. Just some frustrations I have. Totally get it.
|
|
|
Post by foxley on May 21, 2023 3:35:22 GMT -5
Yeah, like the Doom Patrol aped the X-Men...oh...wait... And Deathstroke ripped off Deadpool...
No, sorry. I meant how Darkseid ripped off Thanos...
Dammit!
|
|