shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 7:41:26 GMT -5
You guys( shaxper and Icctrombone) touched on it a little bit in saying that Shooter was dissatisfied with the talent he got at Dark Horse (which I hadn't heard) but did you guys pick those books up? I thought the relaunch of the old Gold Key characters was really awesome and I remember being really surprised to see it go. I do remember some delays, again kind of funny considering Shooter's own hatred of them, and as older and lesser known heroes at a publisher not known for super heroes the sales weren't exactly topping the charts but the stories were solid. I think I remember that what really did it in was the fact that the license was expensive so the books would have had to do gang busters to keep going which is just setting a book up for failure and more on Dark Horse than Shooter. I loved most of Shooter's books for Dark Horse (though I was seriously disturbed by his Doctor Solar), but I can't help but think part of the issue was Shooter running low on ideas. He laid out great premises, but I'm not sure he knew where he was going next with any of them. It's a problem I see repeatedly with Shooter since at least the time of Starbrand, and you can see it in some of his early Valiant work too: Great concepts that really need a different monthly writer to get them all the way there. I distinctly recall Unity 2000, where Shooter came back to Valiant and tried to depict where the Valiant Universe would have went if he'd stuck around before resetting everything. Really, there wasn't much to it. And, in all the interviews he has done about leaving Valiant, I don't recall him ever saying much in terms of stories he would have told that he never got around to. I'm not saying that's exclusively what killed the line, but rather that I think Shooter expected (or at least needed) a writing staff, and what he was pitching for future storylines maybe didn't sound like it warranted the costly licensing rights. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 22, 2023 7:50:04 GMT -5
You guys( shaxper and Icctrombone ) touched on it a little bit in saying that Shooter was dissatisfied with the talent he got at Dark Horse (which I hadn't heard) but did you guys pick those books up? I thought the relaunch of the old Gold Key characters was really awesome and I remember being really surprised to see it go. I do remember some delays, again kind of funny considering Shooter's own hatred of them, and as older and lesser known heroes at a publisher not known for super heroes the sales weren't exactly topping the charts but the stories were solid. I think I remember that what really did it in was the fact that the license was expensive so the books would have had to do gang busters to keep going which is just setting a book up for failure and more on Dark Horse than Shooter. I loved most of Shooter's books for Dark Horse (though I was seriously disturbed by his Doctor Solar), but I can't help but think part of the issue was Shooter running low on ideas. He laid out great premises, but I'm not sure he knew where he was going next with any of them. It's a problem I see repeatedly with Shooter since at least the time of Starbrand, and you can see it in some of his early Valiant work too: Great concepts that really need a different monthly writer to get them all the way there. I distinctly recall Unity 2000, where Shooter came back to Valiant and tried to depict where the Valiant Universe would have went if he'd stuck around before resetting everything. Really, there wasn't much to it. And, in all the interviews he has done about leaving Valiant, I don't recall him ever saying much in terms of stories he would have told that he never got around to. I'm not saying that's exclusively what killed the line, but rather that I think Shooter expected (or at least needed) a writing staff, and what he was pitching for future storylines maybe didn't sound like it warranted the costly licensing rights. There's definitely something to that, I remember thinking even at the time that it was pretty crazy that he was writing Magnus, Solar, Turok and Mighty Samson all by himself. That's a lot of plots to come up with and continue for just one person...and again, kind of like you guys mentioned about Secret Wars, I think he was writer and editor on all those books too which is a lot. Was he withheld writers for some reasons as you hinted at, or did he want to go it alone? It's interesting to think of what could have been. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 7:55:10 GMT -5
I loved most of Shooter's books for Dark Horse (though I was seriously disturbed by his Doctor Solar), but I can't help but think part of the issue was Shooter running low on ideas. He laid out great premises, but I'm not sure he knew where he was going next with any of them. It's a problem I see repeatedly with Shooter since at least the time of Starbrand, and you can see it in some of his early Valiant work too: Great concepts that really need a different monthly writer to get them all the way there. I distinctly recall Unity 2000, where Shooter came back to Valiant and tried to depict where the Valiant Universe would have went if he'd stuck around before resetting everything. Really, there wasn't much to it. And, in all the interviews he has done about leaving Valiant, I don't recall him ever saying much in terms of stories he would have told that he never got around to. I'm not saying that's exclusively what killed the line, but rather that I think Shooter expected (or at least needed) a writing staff, and what he was pitching for future storylines maybe didn't sound like it warranted the costly licensing rights. There's definitely something to that, I remember thinking even at the time that it was pretty crazy that he was writing Magnus, Solar, Turok and Mighty Samson all by himself. That's a lot of plots to come up with and continue for just one person...and again, kind of like you guys mentioned about Secret Wars, I think he was writer and editor on all those books too which is a lot. Was he withheld writers for some reasons as you hinted at, or did he want to go it alone? Well, limited budget, difficult to work with, and shunned by the industry may have been a winning combo. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 22, 2023 8:10:42 GMT -5
You guys( shaxper and Icctrombone ) touched on it a little bit in saying that Shooter was dissatisfied with the talent he got at Dark Horse (which I hadn't heard) but did you guys pick those books up? I thought the relaunch of the old Gold Key characters was really awesome and I remember being really surprised to see it go. I do remember some delays, again kind of funny considering Shooter's own hatred of them, and as older and lesser known heroes at a publisher not known for super heroes the sales weren't exactly topping the charts but the stories were solid. I think I remember that what really did it in was the fact that the license was expensive so the books would have had to do gang busters to keep going which is just setting a book up for failure and more on Dark Horse than Shooter. I loved most of Shooter's books for Dark Horse (though I was seriously disturbed by his Doctor Solar), but I can't help but think part of the issue was Shooter running low on ideas. He laid out great premises, but I'm not sure he knew where he was going next with any of them. It's a problem I see repeatedly with Shooter since at least the time of Starbrand, and you can see it in some of his early Valiant work too: Great concepts that really need a different monthly writer to get them all the way there. I distinctly recall Unity 2000, where Shooter came back to Valiant and tried to depict where the Valiant Universe would have went if he'd stuck around before resetting everything. Really, there wasn't much to it. And, in all the interviews he has done about leaving Valiant, I don't recall him ever saying much in terms of stories he would have told that he never got around to. I'm not saying that's exclusively what killed the line, but rather that I think Shooter expected (or at least needed) a writing staff, and what he was pitching for future storylines maybe didn't sound like it warranted the costly licensing rights. Wow. I talked to Shooter several times in conventions and the last time I had him sign the DH Solar title for me. He told me that the artist they assigned to him delayed in producing the books for many months and when it arrived, it had left out several plot points essential to the story. It even left out an effect that had an overlayed drawing on a page that made the page not make sense. Unity 2000 was supposed to be a 6 issue series and lasted 3 because Valiant didn't pay him. He had the next few issue written which he posted on his website. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 22, 2023 8:16:41 GMT -5
There's definitely something to that, I remember thinking even at the time that it was pretty crazy that he was writing Magnus, Solar, Turok and Mighty Samson all by himself. That's a lot of plots to come up with and continue for just one person...and again, kind of like you guys mentioned about Secret Wars, I think he was writer and editor on all those books too which is a lot. Was he withheld writers for some reasons as you hinted at, or did he want to go it alone? Well, limited budget, difficult to work with, and shunned by the industry may have been a winning combo. I never heard he was difficult from George Perez , Byrne or many of the various artists on the books he wrote. Did he demand the art reflect the story they were given? Of course. Stan Lee had stacks of pages that he rejected from Kirby because they didn't follow the story. I have heard and read from many artists that were frustrated by the artists inability or unwillingness to produce what was asked of them. David Anthony Craft complained about Carmine Infantino delivering hackwork on his stories. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 8:17:34 GMT -5
Unity 2000 was supposed to be a 6 issue series and lasted 3 because Valiant didn't pay him. He had the next few issue written which he posted on his website. I should have clarified. I've read the scripts for all six issues. As for artists not listening to Shooter, that was absolutely an issue with Unity 2000 as well, in which Jim Starlin was outright ignoring and changing directions given by Shooter's scripts. I wonder how much of this is a coincidence, and how much of it is a writer using the DC method from the mid-1960s trying to get artists to unilaterally obey his vision without any attempt to collaborate. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 22, 2023 8:19:32 GMT -5
Unity 2000 was supposed to be a 6 issue series and lasted 3 because Valiant didn't pay him. He had the next few issue written which he posted on his website. I should have clarified. I've read the scripts for all six issues. As for artists not listening to Shooter, that was absolutely an issue with Unity 2000 as well, in which Jim Starlin was outright ignoring and changing directions given by Shooter's scripts. I wonder how much of this is a coincidence, and how much of it is a writer using the DC method from the mid-1960s trying to get artists to unilaterally obey his vision without any attempt to collaborate. I never heard Shooter complain about Starlins work, only that Valiant stopped paying. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 8:20:48 GMT -5
I should have clarified. I've read the scripts for all six issues. As for artists not listening to Shooter, that was absolutely an issue with Unity 2000 as well, in which Jim Starlin was outright ignoring and changing directions given by Shooter's scripts. I wonder how much of this is a coincidence, and how much of it is a writer using the DC method from the mid-1960s trying to get artists to unilaterally obey his vision without any attempt to collaborate. I never heard Shooter complain about Starlins work, only that Valiant stopped paying. He didn't complain. I'm not even sure he ever checked out the finished work. I'm complaining for him. If you read the scripts and look at the pages, Starlin totally disregarded or contradicted his instructions at several key points. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 22, 2023 8:37:44 GMT -5
There's definitely something to that, I remember thinking even at the time that it was pretty crazy that he was writing Magnus, Solar, Turok and Mighty Samson all by himself. That's a lot of plots to come up with and continue for just one person...and again, kind of like you guys mentioned about Secret Wars, I think he was writer and editor on all those books too which is a lot. Was he withheld writers for some reasons as you hinted at, or did he want to go it alone? Well, limited budget, difficult to work with, and shunned by the industry may have been a winning combo. Could very well be, and I still think it's a shame as I love those Gold Key characters. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 8:38:59 GMT -5
Well, limited budget, difficult to work with, and shunned by the industry may have been a winning combo. Could very well be, and I still think it's a shame as I love those Gold Key characters. My favorite part was Samson. He's my second favorite of the old Gold Key heroes, and I really liked the world Shooter built for him at Dark Horse. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 22, 2023 8:39:11 GMT -5
I loved most of Shooter's books for Dark Horse (though I was seriously disturbed by his Doctor Solar), but I can't help but think part of the issue was Shooter running low on ideas. He laid out great premises, but I'm not sure he knew where he was going next with any of them. It's a problem I see repeatedly with Shooter since at least the time of Starbrand, and you can see it in some of his early Valiant work too: Great concepts that really need a different monthly writer to get them all the way there. I distinctly recall Unity 2000, where Shooter came back to Valiant and tried to depict where the Valiant Universe would have went if he'd stuck around before resetting everything. Really, there wasn't much to it. And, in all the interviews he has done about leaving Valiant, I don't recall him ever saying much in terms of stories he would have told that he never got around to. I'm not saying that's exclusively what killed the line, but rather that I think Shooter expected (or at least needed) a writing staff, and what he was pitching for future storylines maybe didn't sound like it warranted the costly licensing rights. Wow. I talked to Shooter several times in conventions and the last time I had him sign the DH Solar title for me. He told me that the artist they assigned to him delayed in producing the books for many months and when it arrived, it had left out several plot points essential to the story. It even left out an effect that had an overlayed drawing on a page that made the page not make sense. Unity 2000 was supposed to be a 6 issue series and lasted 3 because Valiant didn't pay him. He had the next few issue written which he posted on his website. That's a crime, I loved those books and it would have been great to see what they really could have been as Shooter has always seemed passionate about the Gold Key characters. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 8:41:40 GMT -5
That's a crime, I loved those books and it would have been great to see what they really could have been as Shooter has always seemed passionate about the Gold Key characters. I get the sense from interviews that Shooter wasn't actually attached to the characters at all at first. When he wanted to launch Valiant, he wanted established properties to work with, and he realized he could get the Gold Key heroes cheap. That he was able to make them so compelling (raising their value to the point that he priced himself out at Dark Horse) without seemingly having a prior attachment to them, is a serious credit to his talents. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Aug 22, 2023 8:47:37 GMT -5
Where can we get the full version of the theme tune? It's actually available as an exclusive perk for our Patreon supporters. Damn catchy, isn't it? Confessor truly outdid himself. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 22, 2023 8:55:09 GMT -5
Could very well be, and I still think it's a shame as I love those Gold Key characters. My favorite part was Samson. He's my second favorite of the old Gold Key heroes, and I really liked the world Shooter built for him at Dark Horse. Samson was definitely my favorite of the Dark Horse books, perhaps because he was the least developed to begin with but everything done with him in those short few issues felt new and exciting. That's a crime, I loved those books and it would have been great to see what they really could have been as Shooter has always seemed passionate about the Gold Key characters. I get the sense from interviews that Shooter wasn't actually attached to the characters at all at first. When he wanted to launch Valiant, he wanted established properties to work with, and he realized he could get the Gold Key heroes cheap. That he was able to make them so compelling (raising their value to the point that he priced himself out at Dark Horse) without seemingly having a prior attachment to them, is a serious credit to his talents. I hadn't heard that but it certainly fits his businessmen side, my feeling on his passion for the project stems from talking to him once at a con right before the Dark Horse launch and he said it was like getting the band back together again and reuniting with old friends. He was really animated about the whole project and it was cool to see. It could certainly be both things, a mercenary business move but one that grew into actually caring about the properties afterwards. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 22, 2023 9:01:14 GMT -5
Where can we get the full version of the theme tune? It's actually available as an exclusive perk for our Patreon supporters. Damn catchy, isn't it? Confessor truly outdid himself. And it's downloadable too! "Get your hands off my comic books!" love that line. |
|
