shaxper
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Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2024 8:37:08 GMT -5
Nobody, I mean nobody publishes books that don't sell. Thomas unleashed the monster of writer/editor to the world of Marvel and maybe it started out okay, but eventually the writers started to get lax about the material and turning in work in a timely matter. First off, low sales do not necessary equal low quality, nor do high sales necessarily equal high quality. Roy Thomas hired his new generation of writers to churn out unbridled creativity on low selling, low interest properties. They were given those books because they weren't seen as lucrative. There was no risk. And, over time, these writers developed fan bases around their books. The problem is that kids generally weren't going to read and understand Panther's Rage, or The Metamorphosis Odyssey, or even comprehend the subtle genius at play in Howard The Duck beyond "Hey, look, it's a grumpy duck in men's clothing". These writers were playing to the adult fanbase they had come from and not the largely adolescent fanbase Marvel management was looking at. Any moron editor can cancel a book with low sales, and Shooter is no moron. When you have a quality book that isn't selling, a good editor figures out how to make that book profitable (or maybe even realizes that it already was profitable, but Marvel was looking at the wrong data points). There was an active adult fanbase out there, actively supporting the work Marvel's newer guys were cranking out, and Shooter made no effort to engage them. While Phil Seuling was actively working to build a direct market that would better cater to adult fans, Shooter was blissfully ignorant, attending Seuling's conventions and then wondering why more kids weren't wearing Hercules Unbound licensed pajamas. Was it understandable that Shooter killed all those titles? Sure. Was it understandable that he micromanaged to the point that some extremely talented creators left in a tizzy? Maybe. But none of that is emblematic of strong leadership and great editing. It's excusable at best. I respect Shooter's genius, both as a writer and as a mad thinker, and I absolutely know he could have managed Marvel a lot better than he did. He was young, full of himself, and totally unprepared for the job at hand. And I firmly believe that all of comicdom lost out as a result. Great things happened under Shooter, and even better things died under Shooter. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 10:11:49 GMT -5
If we have succeeded in ruining your efforts to be productive, we have accomplished our greatest goal. Huzzah!
Mission accomplished. You have me chatting about comics rather than doing what I need to do this morning. You're an evil influence, shaxper.
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 10:48:03 GMT -5
Ouch. Of course, for a Silver Age DC story, feeling like it was written by a teenager probably made it twenty times better than much of the other dreck the company was pumping out. Sure, the story is simplistic and a little emo, but I think it's fantastic and pulled things from both characters that no writer had ever tried prior to that story. But, as always with literature, your mileage may vary. I'm not sure I ever wrote off Shooter's tenure as a failure, per se. My criticism of him is really that he brought so much of the innovation that had been happening since Roy Thomas' tenure to a screeching halt, sending talented creators packing. I would certainly agree that his rebranding of core Marvel characters was smart, interesting, and effective. It's how he treated his people that I take issue with. George and I seem to agree on aspects of that, but I think we differ on whether or not that kind of treatment was necessary. Sometimes, being the smartest guy in the room can turn you into an a-hole without your realizing it, and I think that's pretty much what happened. Icctrombone , what do you think? I'd be down, but that would be A LOT more Shooter talk, and we're already dredging up shooter again as part of our upcoming next episode. We just can't leave the guy alone! Haha. And then maybe the Roy Thomas episode for contrast. My biggest criticism of Shooter beyond his general treatment of people is that he killed everything Thomas brought to Marvel. Anyway, thanks for all this. Love a listener who isn't afraid to disagree! I'll admit, I am not a fan of anything Silver Age. Even as a kid when I started reading Marvel in the 70s and I'd occasionally read a reprint from the 60s, I'd think to myself, man, these stories suck compared to the ones I usually read. Of course, in retrospect, a lot of those Bronze Age stories sucked too.
I thought you used the word failure for his term at Marvel but if I misheard or took it out of context, apologies. But my point is, purely in terms of the results for Marvel, he couldn't have done much more as EIC. He may have changed a lot of things from the Thomas era but every new editor I've ever dealt with has done that when they came in, including getting rid of the previous regime's favorite writers. They feel they have to show they're different and better than the last guy. I think the core of your argument is you think Shooter was a jerk to many of the creators who worked for him. But that's true of a lot of people in that position. To use my sports coach analogy again, there are a lot of great coaches who were controlling and manipulative, as you say Shooter was. But nobody cares about that because their teams won. If you want to say success is less important than treating people with respect, I won't argue. Can you have both? Possibly but not many people are capable of walking that fine line. And as a fan, whether of a sports team or a comic, do you ultimately care about how people are treated behind the scenes as long as you're getting the successful product you want?
And like I said, I basically agreed with most of what you guys had to say. I don't think you two even disagreed all that much, except in how important it was that Shooter may have been a jerk and the potential negative consequences of that (and if you wanted to hang him on that, Jeff, you should have brought up the many allegations of homophobia, as well as an obviously gigantic ego where he never seems to admit to anything ever having been his fault in interviews).
As for a Secret Wars podcast, you can NEVER have too much Shooter talk!
This is the discussion that never ends Blame shaxper. He's the one who suggested people listen in your Thor thread. I can't help it if I'm susceptible to suggestion. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2024 11:12:21 GMT -5
I think Secret Wars was a fun romp. It still stands up as a solid 12 issue series , unlike COIE which has been made irrelevant.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2024 11:19:38 GMT -5
You're an evil influence, shaxper. This is all the praise I've ever sought. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 11:22:21 GMT -5
I think Secret Wars was a fun romp. It still stands up as a solid 12 issue series , unlike COIE which has been made irrelevant. I read it when it came out back when I was in college and honestly haven't read it since then. I recall really disliking it mainly because it just didn't feel true to what had been established about those characters or the Marvel universe for the previous 20 years. But I admit to having a problem taking a comic out of context and appreciating it on it's own merits divorced from the larger continuity.
However, in terms of Marvel continuity, it was an ABOMINATION! Secret Wars was the Rubicon from which Marvel continuity could never return, only continually try to retcon itself out of in ever more convoluted ways.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Sept 25, 2024 11:39:49 GMT -5
thought you used the word failure for his term at Marvel but if I misheard or took it out of context, apologies. It's possible I did. Been a year since we recorded this one, but that doesn't sound like me, and it doesn't align with how I see him overall. No worries nor need for apology. Just wanted to clarify. Except that we didn't get the successful product I wanted. I'm a huge fan of everything that ended under Shooter. Shooter claims it wasn't profitable. I say, 1. by what metric? Reliable sales figures were works of fiction in those days. 2. Even if he was right, FIX it. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 3. Don't throw the baby's creators out with the bathwater either. Sure, a good leader has to be tough, but when you are losing some of your best people, and they are outright saying it's your management style that's causing them to leave, that's not effective leadership. Shooter did a lot of good for Marvel, but that's always been his schtick. Knock down what everyone else is doing and clear a path for his vision. It's not a question of whether or not he did positive and commerically successful things at Marvel; it's a question of what was lost in the process. Ha. His attitudes towards women are inevitably going to come up in our next episode, and the homophobia bit with Bruce Banner and the YMCA locker room will probably come up eventually, but my point was never to demonize him. As I've repeatedly said, I'm a huge fan of his writing, and I genuinely like him when he isn't being an asshat. He also killed the era of Marvel that I love and respect best. It's complicated. I'm in if George is! |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 25, 2024 12:34:40 GMT -5
I think Secret Wars was a fun romp. It still stands up as a solid 12 issue series , unlike COIE which has been made irrelevant. They’re both terrible. Just in different ways. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 14:46:38 GMT -5
Except that we didn't get the successful product I wanted. I'm a huge fan of everything that ended under Shooter. Shooter claims it wasn't profitable. I say, 1. by what metric? Reliable sales figures were works of fiction in those days. 2. Even if he was right, FIX it. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 3. Don't throw the baby's creators out with the bathwater either. Sure, a good leader has to be tough, but when you are losing some of your best people, and they are outright saying it's your management style that's causing them to leave, that's not effective leadership. Shooter did a lot of good for Marvel, but that's always been his schtick. Knock down what everyone else is doing and clear a path for his vision. It's not a question of whether or not he did positive and commerically successful things at Marvel; it's a question of what was lost in the process. Ha. His attitudes towards women are inevitably going to come up in our next episode, and the homophobia bit with Bruce Banner and the YMCA locker room will probably come up eventually, but my point was never to demonize him. As I've repeatedly said, I'm a huge fan of his writing, and I genuinely like him when he isn't being an asshat. He also killed the era of Marvel that I love and respect best. It's complicated. I think where we differ on this is in appreciation for those canceled titles. I wasn't a huge fan of most of them. Yes, he probably lost some innovation there but he gained in quality of the product he was left with like Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor, etc. My only criticism of the creative side was I wasn't crazy about any of the new characters or comics created during Shooter's reign (never a big fan of any of the X-Men spinoffs, the Punisher comics or whatever else was created during that time). So from that perspective you're right, it wasn't as innovative for brand new characters and comics as the earlier Marvel eras.
I've seen you mention the attitudes toward women. You'd mentioned Ann Nocenti and I googled it but couldn't find her really saying much negative about Shooter. Besides the Avengers 200/Ms Marvel thing, which he characteristically denies the blame for, I haven't heard many criticisms on this front. But it is complicated because he was maybe my favorite comic writer growing up and when you have that fond nostalgia for people, it's hard to hear or believe bad things about them. I really don't know that much about him other than what I've heard on yours and other podcasts. I'd like to believe him when he denies the wrongdoing in most of these things and I think he probably has been portrayed unfairly quite a bit but when enough people are saying bad things, at least some of it is usually true. I think just how bad those things are and how true they are should determine how much you demonize him.
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 14:50:05 GMT -5
I think Secret Wars was a fun romp. It still stands up as a solid 12 issue series , unlike COIE which has been made irrelevant. They’re both terrible. Just in different ways. I was never a big DC reader so I didn't have the visceral negative reaction to Crisis that I know a lot of DC fans had. I read it, didn't think it was anything great but no worse than most other comic stuff back then. I actually liked the idea of DC restructuring their universe to something more manageable and understandable. But like every other reboot that's come after, they immediately started undoing it so it made the whole idea pointless. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 25, 2024 14:53:36 GMT -5
You're an evil influence, shaxper. This is all the praise I've ever sought. And now you've got me wasting my afternoon on this junk! I should be writing a proposal to an editor and working on an episode of my own podcast then going out for a run. So you're not only ruining my career, you're ruining my health!  |
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