shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2023 4:38:03 GMT -5
I see where you’re coming from, but I think writers in the 70s were already doing that and I’m not sure whether Moore tipped the scales. I do think he was hugely influential on everything they followed. The fact that traditional horror offerings come to a full and final stop in the same year that Saga of Swamp Thing began can certainly be chalked up to coincidence. Its very hard to prove or disprove a thing like influence, which is why it's a "tinfoil hat" theory, of course. And there's no doubt that, once we had ongoing characters in horror titles, writers like Len Wein were trying to move towards what Moore ultimately achieved. The question then would be whether the genre ever would have fully gotten there without him. Indeed, but that's a little chicken and the egg, isn't it? Did the mature readers branding change horror, or did the change in horror necessitate a mature readers branding? For what it's worth, growing up in the late '80s, the idea of turning to comics for anything other than Superheroes or humor never even really occurred to me. I was going to the neighbor's house to watch R rated horror films. MDG mentioned the impacts of the move to direct market sales on the horror genre. One was certainly that the target audiences became more niche and adult. Thus, there really weren't any horror comics that kids like me were reading by the late 1980s. Sure, we all read Moore's Killing Joke, and some were mature enough to begin to appreciate V for Vendetta and Watchmen, but absolutely no kid I knew had any interest in Swamp Thing, Sandman, Hellraiser and the bunch. I remember buying an issue of the Vertigo remake of Shade the Changing Man because some older comic fan had suggested it, and I just didn't get it. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2023 4:40:51 GMT -5
Between both your 10 worst and your 10 favorites, you guys have touched on something like 10 of my very favorite comics. Evidently, the horror bug that carried me into this hobby in the first place stayed stronger in me than I realized. Tales of the Zombie is one that hasn't come up much on the forum, but I'm right there with you both on that one! I was utterly fascinated by the house ads in the color line promoting that magazine, and I wanted that comic so bad! With its completed arc of redemption, the original run feels very like a true comic novel, and consequently it was one of the only comics I was satisfied to see stopping where it did. And that concluding issue, #9, also included one of the few comics stories that did literally scare me, the deeply disturbing "Herby the Liar Said It Wouldn't Hurt". (On par with "Herby", one that would have made my list is "Maniac", a Simon & Kirby masterpiece reprinted in Black Magic #1 in the 70's. At 13, one of the genuine fears I had--and one I suppose most children share--was losing my parents, and Kirby capitalized on that fear very effectively a couple of times, with the nightmarish orphanage of Granny Goodness in Mr. Miracle and with the threat of removal to an "institution" in "Maniac". The highly disturbing twist in "Maniac" haunts me to this day.) Great stuff! If we're talking amazingly haunting '70s Marvel mag horror stories that involve the loss of adult caregivers, my favorite will always be "Gran'ma Died Last Year" in Haunt of Horrors #3, I think. Serious wow. Anyway, glad you enjoyed the countdown! |
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Post by commond on Oct 17, 2023 6:35:16 GMT -5
I see where you’re coming from, but I think writers in the 70s were already doing that and I’m not sure whether Moore tipped the scales. I do think he was hugely influential on everything they followed. The fact that traditional horror offerings come to a full and final stop in the same year that Saga of Swamp Thing began can certainly be chalked up to coincidence. Its very hard to prove or disprove a thing like influence, which is why it's a "tinfoil hat" theory, of course. And there's no doubt that, once we had ongoing characters in horror titles, writers like Len Wein were trying to move towards what Moore ultimately achieved. The question then would be whether the genre ever would have fully gotten there without him. Indeed, but that's a little chicken and the egg, isn't it? Did the mature readers branding change horror, or did the change in horror necessitate a mature readers branding? For what it's worth, growing up in the late '80s, the idea of turning to comics for anything other than Superheroes or humor never even really occurred to me. I was going to the neighbor's house to watch R rated horror films. MDG mentioned the impacts of the move to direct market sales on the horror genre. One was certainly that the target audiences became more niche and adult. Thus, there really weren't any horror comics that kids like me were reading by the late 1980s. Sure, we all read Moore's Killing Joke, and some were mature enough to begin to appreciate V for Vendetta and Watchmen, but absolutely no kid I knew had any interest in Swamp Thing, Sandman, Hellraiser and the bunch. I remember buying an issue of the Vertigo remake of Shade the Changing Man because some older comic fan had suggested it, and I just didn't get it. I equated comic books to wrestling, Saturday morning cartoons, toy lines, trading cards, arcade games, and all of the other things I was into. If I'd been a bit older, I might have gravitated towards the more mature stuff. I was aware of it as I used to always grab Direct Currents and the other free pamphlets from the comic book shop and would read them cover to cover. I would follow the books I couldn't afford through the blurbs and act out the stories with my G.J. figures. It wasn't until I was 15 or so that the guys at the comic book store told me to stop reading the latest crap and began filling my pull list with their recommended books. I wound up getting into From Hell, which I read as it was being released, so I guess that was my first real horror series (if you can call it one.) |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 17, 2023 7:52:29 GMT -5
You guys got me to re-read Tales of the Zombie!
It's great that Marvel included the original Simon Garth story in its Essential volume.
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Post by MDG on Oct 17, 2023 9:02:31 GMT -5
I don't think horror anthologies were killed by Alan Moore as much as they were killed by the direct market. Horror was one of the genres that appealed to whatever "casual" readers were left--folks who might pick up a comic or two off a newsstand once in a while, but weren't making a point to get every single issue. Buyers in comic shops were in it for the soap opera. Shouldn't it work the other way around? Something released on the stands had to have mass appeal and cater to the largest common denomenators, whereas the direct market allowed for more niche interests to flourish. Well, by the time you hit the 80s, comics themselves were a niche market and the subniche that the DM catered to was the one for ongoing serials. The people who went into a comic book store for comic books and nothing else.
The people who might have picked up a comic along with a coke or a candy bar or issue of MAD or Famous Monsters (or Creem or Circus, like some of my friends in the 70s) at a stationery store or toy shop were still going into those stores, but comics weren't there, so they didn't buy them.
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Post by commond on Oct 17, 2023 9:15:01 GMT -5
Why does everyone assume that there were no newsstand comics after the advent of the direct market? If that were the case, I would have never discovered comics. I know I wasn't part of the North American market, but I was still buying newsstand comics in the mid-90s.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2023 9:49:27 GMT -5
You guys got me to re-read Tales of the Zombie! It's great that Marvel included the original Simon Garth story in its Essential volume. It's reprinted in Tales of the Zombie #1 as well 👍 |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 17, 2023 10:35:50 GMT -5
I think that’s a compass not a protractor, but you’re right. Yes, that's definitely a compass (or, as we called them in high school geometry class, compasses). The protractor - at least the type most familiar to elementary and high school students - is the either semi-circular or circular plastic tool that you lay flat on a piece of paper to measure angles: |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2023 15:16:29 GMT -5
I think that’s a compass not a protractor, but you’re right. Yes, that's definitely a compass (or, as we called them in high school geometry class, compasses). The protractor - at least the type most familiar to elementary and high school students - is the either semi-circular or circular plastic tool that you lay flat on a piece of paper to measure angles: If you can't find fault in their comic knowledge, find fault in their math knowledge  At least I know this is a slide rule.  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 17, 2023 17:43:54 GMT -5
All my life I thought it was called a protractor. I learned something new.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 17, 2023 17:49:50 GMT -5
Random thoughts as I listen.
Before listening...Shax...you ain't no Weezy Jones.
I think the first 10 issues of Swamp Thing by Wein and Wrightson are monster stories in the vein of the Universal horror films. If they're horror then early Swamp Thing is horror. It's a whole bunch more horror than any number of super-hero horror features you fellers have visited in this exercise.
I never read I, Vampire.
It's been eons since I've read Brother Voodoo.
Fleisher/Aparo Spectre is absolutely amazing. One of my favorite features. It's been addressed, but compass, not a protractor.
I haven't read the Simon Garth zombie in eons either.
I guess I just don't know what you mean by "traditional horror comic." I absolutely disagree that Moore killed the horror book or that they disappeared. I honestly just can't parse where you're coming from here at all.
Moore 100% inspired Gaiman. In fact Moore gave Gaiman a comic script to show him what one looked like. But there are plenty of horror stories in Sandman. And there have been plenty since.
I can't imagine saying there have been no new horror comics since 1984 and then follow up by calling Teen Titans by Haney a horror comic. Flabbergasting.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2023 20:45:54 GMT -5
I can't imagine saying there have been no new horror comics since 1984 and then follow up by calling Teen Titans by Haney a horror comic. Flabbergasting. Have you even read the issues I was discussing, though? As I explained earlier, "traditional horror" as in a book containing stories whose primary purpose is to scare the reader. Those Teen Titans issues were trying to scare the reader. It's that simple. Few ongoing comics since 1984 have had that express intent. I'd be curious if you have specific exceptions to this that you feel I've missed. As usual, you're very welcome to disagree, but I'm flabbergasted that you're flabbergasted. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 17, 2023 22:08:56 GMT -5
I can't imagine saying there have been no new horror comics since 1984 and then follow up by calling Teen Titans by Haney a horror comic. Flabbergasting. Have you even read the issues I was discussing, though? As I explained earlier, "traditional horror" as in a book containing stories whose primary purpose is to scare the reader. Those Teen Titans issues were trying to scare the reader. It's that simple. Few ongoing comics since 1984 have had that express intent. I'd be curious if you have specific exceptions to this that you feel I've missed. As usual, you're very welcome to disagree, but I'm flabbergasted that you're flabbergasted. Hellblazer Flinch At least a half dozen books by Jeff Lemire, not least being Gideon Falls, but also Bone Orchard Mythos. Oh…and Little Monsters. Harrow County FARMHAND by Rob Guillory Immortal Hulk was far more a horror comic than pretty much any of Marvel's horror comics of the 70s. Ice Cream Man Silver Coin was only semi-successful, but clearly a horror comic. These Savage Shores. Wytches I might add Beasts of Burden, which is at least as much horror as almost anything on either list. Now, admittedly, a lot of those aren’t traditional “ongoings.” But I’d contend that has nothing to do with Alan Moore, and largely agree with Marty that it was market forces and the change to the direct market. DC and Marvel were incentivized to focus on superhero books. So other genres tended to be pushed to smaller publishers, mini-series and small imprints like Vertigo. I guess you can argue the point of those issues of Teen Titans was to scare people. I’m not sure I’d agree. If it was, they weren’t successful. I’m more inclined to say the purpose of them was to keep publishing that particular title in hopes of staving off cancellation. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 18, 2023 0:48:05 GMT -5
Another great episode, guys! Nothing much I wanted to comment on except to say it's pronounced "Di-MATT-us," not "Di-muh-TAY-us," according to the man himself.
Cei-U!
I summon the fourth winner in a row!
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 18, 2023 1:58:12 GMT -5
(...) At least I know this is a slide rule. Nope. That's a drying rack for marbles. |
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