|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 18, 2023 2:23:23 GMT -5
More seriously, though, I didn't really have time last night (my time) to comment more seriously, but now that I do, I see Slam made some of my main points for me; in a nutshell, I agree that both iterations of Swamp Thing I've read, the Wein/Wrightson material and Moore's run, would count as horror.
I guess I comes down to your definition of "traditional horror" and the insistence that they should be trying to scare you. I'd consider stories that try to disturb you in some fundamental way horror as well - and there's plenty of that in Moore's run in particular (cripes, just that story where Abby is scrubbing herself compulsively is enough for me to declare the whole series horror).
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2023 4:26:18 GMT -5
I guess I comes down to your definition of "traditional horror" and the insistence that they should be trying to scare you. I'd consider stories that try to disturb you in some fundamental way horror as well We're not entirely in disagreement on this. My point was that "traditional horror"'s primary goal is to scare the reader. I'm not saying that's what horror should do, but rather that this is what horror traditionally did. I like disturbing modern horror comics as much as you do; I'm saying that, after Moore, you don't see many books whose primary intent is to scare you, and before Moore, you don't get characters in horror books scrubbing their skin compulsively. Moore popularized a different and (I think) far more successful approach to the horror genre. Slam_Bradley, I'll respond to your list when I have some time either tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for it. I promise not to be flabbergasted. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2023 4:30:29 GMT -5
it's pronounced "Di-MATT-us," not "Di-muh-TAY-us," according to the man himself. Maybe he'll change the pronunciation once he hears George's singing. I would! |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 18, 2023 5:45:18 GMT -5
Another great episode, guys! Nothing much I wanted to comment on except to say it's pronounced "Di-MATT-us," not "Di-muh-TAY-us," according to the man himself. Cei-U! I summon the fourth winner in a row! You say to-Matt-us, I’ll say To-muh-tay-us. |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 18, 2023 10:16:01 GMT -5
It's pronounced Jay-Em!  I didn't know that Mark Millar had a channel where he interviews comics pros. Very nice chat with DeMatteis, here. (He said a lot of nice things about the late and great Keith Giffen). |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Oct 18, 2023 18:42:50 GMT -5
it's pronounced "Di-MATT-us," not "Di-muh-TAY-us," according to the man himself. Maybe he'll change the pronunciation once he hears George's singing. I would! I heard him on two podcasts and the hosts pronounced it the way I did and he didn’t correct them. |
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Oct 18, 2023 18:56:22 GMT -5
Maybe he'll change the pronunciation once he hears George's singing. I would! I heard him on two podcasts and the hosts pronounced it the way I did and he didn’t correct them. Well, he DID correct me when I met him so maybe he was just being polite, the way Joe Kubert never bothered to correct folks who pronounced his name "KYOO-bert" instead of the correct "KOO-bert."
Cei-U! I stand by my facts!
|
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Oct 18, 2023 19:01:58 GMT -5
My singing days are over.  |
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Oct 18, 2023 20:45:05 GMT -5
My singing days are over. Arrivederci, Caruso. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 19, 2023 15:44:16 GMT -5
Been a busy few days, Slam_Bradley Sorry to keep you waiting. I've never read it. It was always my assumption that it was going for more of a noir detective vibe, but I have to admit that I don't know for sure. This one might actually support my theory, as it lasted six issues, and there were rumors of cancellation almost from the get-go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the belief that Lemire's horror works were all graphic novels and limited series. My theory was in regard to ongoing titles. I've never heard of this one. Tell me a little about it. Would you argue that the primary purpose of each issue of Farmhand is to scare the reader, though? What I've read of it is heavy on plot and humor at least as much as it is on horror. As a massive fan of that run, I wholeheartedly disagree. There were elements and moments that felt like straight-up horror, but not the whole. If anything, I think of it primarily as a psychological deconstruction. . I've yet to read this, but my wife says you're right  Another limited series. Classic horror can survive in small, targeted bursts post-1984, but not as an ongoing that has to keep returning to the same well issue after issue. Another one with which I'm unfamiliar. Tell me more. Lasted six issues. I haven't read it but, from what I've heard, you may be right on this one. You're certainly welcome to see it that way. We don't call them "Tinfoil hat" theories for nothing. At least you're not flabbergasted anymore. I'd argue the two are related: Trying to scare the reader = traditional horror. traditional horror = good sales in the early 1970s. Teen Titans needs better sales in the early 1970s. :Teen Titans starts doing traditional horror. |
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 19, 2023 16:43:27 GMT -5
Been a busy few days, Slam_Bradley Sorry to keep you waiting. I've never read it. It was always my assumption that it was going for more of a noir detective vibe, but I have to admit that I don't know for sure. This one might actually support my theory, as it lasted six issues, and there were rumors of cancellation almost from the get-go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the belief that Lemire's horror works were all graphic novels and limited series. My theory was in regard to ongoing titles. I've never heard of this one. Tell me a little about it. Would you argue that the primary purpose of each issue of Farmhand is to scare the reader, though? What I've read of it is heavy on plot and humor at least as much as it is on horror. As a massive fan of that run, I wholeheartedly disagree. There were elements and moments that felt like straight-up horror, but not the whole. If anything, I think of it primarily as a psychological deconstruction. . I've yet to read this, but my wife says you're right Another limited series. Classic horror can survive in small, targeted bursts post-1984, but not as an ongoing that has to keep returning to the same well issue after issue. Another one with which I'm unfamiliar. Tell me more. Lasted six issues. I haven't read it but, from what I've heard, you may be right on this one. You're certainly welcome to see it that way. We don't call them "Tinfoil hat" theories for nothing. At least you're not flabbergasted anymore. I'd argue the two are related: Trying to scare the reader = traditional horror. traditional horror = good sales in the early 1970s. Teen Titans needs better sales in the early 1970s. :Teen Titans starts doing traditional horror. Hellblazer was definitely horror, and most of it was really good too. Harrow County was fantastic as well, it really put an awesome spotlight on Appalachian horror which has it's own breed of ghosts and demons that blend colonial folklore, traditional Gothic horror themes with native american myths and the art in the book was amazing. Gideon Falls was definitely a traditional ongoing as well and while Lemire's Bone Orchard Mythos is comprised of a series of mini-series, one shots and graphic novels I don't think that discounts it as an on going as it's more just a way many modern writers are telling their stories but it's still very much an on going, long form story despite the way it was released. Beasts of Burden is definitely another fantastic horror book. In addition to Slam's suggestions I'd also put forward Scott Snyder's American Vampire, Tynion's Something is Killing the Children, Joe Hill's Locke and Key, back in 2008 Vertigo brought back House of Mystery which was really fun and it ran for nearly four years, and I loved the Archie horror books based on Archie and Sabrina. And do I need to say that I love Hellboy? That totally counts as a horror ongoing in my book. |
|
|
|
Post by commond on Oct 19, 2023 17:07:56 GMT -5
Didn't Tomb of Dracula already flip the script for ongoing horror titles?
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 19, 2023 18:14:06 GMT -5
Didn't Tomb of Dracula already flip the script for ongoing horror titles? Interesting thesis. |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 19, 2023 19:15:12 GMT -5
Been a busy few days, Slam_Bradley Sorry to keep you waiting. I've never read it. It was always my assumption that it was going for more of a noir detective vibe, but I have to admit that I don't know for sure. This one might actually support my theory, as it lasted six issues, and there were rumors of cancellation almost from the get-go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the belief that Lemire's horror works were all graphic novels and limited series. My theory was in regard to ongoing titles. I've never heard of this one. Tell me a little about it. Would you argue that the primary purpose of each issue of Farmhand is to scare the reader, though? What I've read of it is heavy on plot and humor at least as much as it is on horror. As a massive fan of that run, I wholeheartedly disagree. There were elements and moments that felt like straight-up horror, but not the whole. If anything, I think of it primarily as a psychological deconstruction. . I've yet to read this, but my wife says you're right Another limited series. Classic horror can survive in small, targeted bursts post-1984, but not as an ongoing that has to keep returning to the same well issue after issue. Another one with which I'm unfamiliar. Tell me more. Lasted six issues. I haven't read it but, from what I've heard, you may be right on this one. You're certainly welcome to see it that way. We don't call them "Tinfoil hat" theories for nothing. At least you're not flabbergasted anymore. I'd argue the two are related: Trying to scare the reader = traditional horror. traditional horror = good sales in the early 1970s. Teen Titans needs better sales in the early 1970s. :Teen Titans starts doing traditional horror. Hellblazer was definitely horror, and most of it was really good too. Harrow County was fantastic as well, it really put an awesome spotlight on Appalachian horror which has it's own breed of ghosts and demons that blend colonial folklore, traditional Gothic horror themes with native american myths and the art in the book was amazing. Gideon Falls was definitely a traditional ongoing as well and while Lemire's Bone Orchard Mythos is comprised of a series of mini-series, one shots and graphic novels I don't think that discounts it as an on going as it's more just a way many modern writers are telling their stories but it's still very much an on going, long form story despite the way it was released. Beasts of Burden is definitely another fantastic horror book. In addition to Slam's suggestions I'd also put forward Scott Snyder's American Vampire, Tynion's Something is Killing the Children, Joe Hill's Locke and Key, back in 2008 Vertigo brought back House of Mystery which was really fun and it ran for nearly four years, and I loved the Archie horror books based on Archie and Sabrina. And do I need to say that I love Hellboy? That totally counts as a horror ongoing in my book. I'm not sure I have a lot to add to what Prince Hal had to say. I guess I'm still a bit perplexed by a definition of horror that includes what really were straight up superhero books with barely incidental horror trappings like Morbius or the Dell super-Dracula (or Werewolf By Night, for that matter), but doesn't include Immortal Hulk, which was every bit as rooted in horror as it was super-heroics. I also think that the emphasis on on-goings simply doesn't look at the realities of how comics are created and consumed in the 21st Century, none of which can be laid at the feet of Alan Moore. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
|
Post by shaxper on Oct 19, 2023 19:23:52 GMT -5
I guess I'm still a bit perplexed by a definition of horror that includes what really were straight up superhero books with barely incidental horror trappings like Morbius or the Dell super-Dracula (or Werewolf By Night, for that matter), but doesn't include Immortal Hulk, which was every bit as rooted in horror as it was super-heroics. To be totally honest, in hindsight some of our choices are a bit inconsistent with our own guidelines. I go right from saying I'm not looking at titles as a whole to nominating Strange Sports Stories, one of George's choices is a specific issue of a comic instead of a property, etc. Sure, sometimes the best laid plans still seem silly in hindsight at times. In episode 2, Kurt stated that it's never a good idea for a writer to be their own editor. Well, I can't afford an editor. That being said, Morbius, Dell's Dracula, and Werewolf by Night were all explicit attempts to engage horror fans, even if they rejected the horror formula. The same is not necessarily true for Swamp Thing beyond his first appearance (though it certainly can be argued), and it certainly doesn't apply to Immortal Hulk. Emphasis on "I also think". And you may be right. And you may not be. And that's really okay. |
|
