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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 27, 2023 20:42:34 GMT -5
I'm reminded here of Louis Armstrong's famous response when asked to define jazz: "If you gotta ask the question, you ain't never gonna dig the answer" (or words to that effect).
Cei-U! Either you get it or you don't... and either is okay!
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Post by berkley on Dec 28, 2023 0:35:32 GMT -5
With all due respect, you only read the first volume. There are several story arcs within Locas and Palomar that tie together as linear narratives. I believe I've read more than the first volume over the years. I have the Penny century mini and have read many L@R on digital. It just doesn't resonate with me.
I'd say your L&R reading has been a bit too scattershot to give you a real picture of what their stuff is like. It's no wonder you find it disconncted if you read just the first volume and then a few random other things here and there and at various intervals of time.
I usually recommend to anyone wanting to give the series a serious look to skip the first volume because it's kind of all over the place - especially in regard to Gilbert's stories, but even Jaime's feels a little untethered when taken all by itself, apart from the other things he was doing with those characters around that time. So I think the best way to approach it is to start with volume 2 and continue on from there for awhile, then go back to volume 1 at some point - you'll know the right time for yourself because if you get hooked, you'll feel the urge to do it of your own accord.
I'm in accord with what other L&R readers in the thread have been saying: basically, it's so different to other comics in its overall ambience that it can feel strange and off-putting at first, especially if coming to it mainly from the Marvel/DC superhero world - even though superhero comics are a definite influence. But they're just one influence among many others, and not all of them, perhaps not even the majority, comics-related. For that reson, I think it takes some time for it to click, as others have noted, and I think the best way to speed that process up is to immerse oneself in their world, which might take a volume or two or more, depending on the person.
I understand that, if it's more than one volume, that's a lot to ask of a reader. I wouldn't usually give a new series more than one collection to convince me. What made Love & Rockets an exception for me as that I sensed almost right away that there was something special about it - I just didn't know if I'd be able to adjust my sensibilities to it, since it was so unlike any other comics I'd read.
It was a couple short collections of Gilbert's stuff (Duck Feet and The Reticent Heart, not part of the complete chronological series of volumes) that finally made it click with me, but as I said earlier, I think the best bet is to start with volume 2. I was already hooked after the two Glbert books I read so I went straight back to vol. 1 and devoured all the collections unti I'd caught up to where the new issues were, around #26.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2023 22:48:18 GMT -5
looks like the volume that had at the library was the later version.. the blurb says 'collects the 1st 5 years of Locas stories'. I'm kinda excited for it to come in now with all this debate. Seems like I will have to do a bit of a review after this much discussion
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Post by MDG on Dec 29, 2023 12:03:22 GMT -5
I believe I've read more than the first volume over the years. I have the Penny century mini and have read many L@R on digital. It just doesn't resonate with me.
I'd say your L&R reading has been a bit too scattershot to give you a real picture of what their stuff is like. It's no wonder you find it disconncted if you read just the first volume and then a few random other things here and there and at various intervals of time.
I was thinking something similar. "Love & Rockets" is a title, but it encompasses a lot of varied stuff, including things that aren't titled "Love & Rockets", like Measles or Whoa, Nellie!. It's like if you said, "Sell me on John Byrne." That can mean different things.
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Post by berkley on Dec 31, 2023 5:09:18 GMT -5
I'd say your L&R reading has been a bit too scattershot to give you a real picture of what their stuff is like. It's no wonder you find it disconncted if you read just the first volume and then a few random other things here and there and at various intervals of time.
I was thinking something similar. "Love & Rockets" is a title, but it encompasses a lot of varied stuff, including things that aren't titled "Love & Rockets", like Measles or Whoa, Nellie!. It's like if you said, "Sell me on John Byrne." That can mean different things. Very true - and even within the first 50 issues of the original Love and Rockets series there's a tremendous amount of variety, which is why I think it really takes a longish immersion to give it a fair chance: some of the recurring characters, patterns, themes won't emerge without that - which is of course a lot to ask of someone who's already sceptical, or has sapled a few things and found him or herself unmoved. And the first volume in particular is a bad one to star with for new readers.
I think readers that are firm admirers have to be careful not to come across as patronising to sceptics or curious neutrals - and I hope I haven't done that unwillingly already in this thread. My early experience with L&R wasn't too different from George's: everything felt unfinished, sketchy, disconnected ... I suppose the only real difference was that I felt motivated to keep trying and eventually it clicked; and maybe that this whole process happened to me back in the 1980s when the series was relatively new, so I wasn't being brow-beaten that I HAD to love it or I was a big dummy, which I'm afraid is how some of this comes across now. I didn't have any comics friends back then sso it was all new to me, everything was an independent encounter between me and the comic, with no one telling me what was cool or what wasn't.
Not that I think anyone here is influenced by those voices now - but from my own experience, if I feel that someone or some group is trying to influence me that way, I know I instinctively rebel against it, almost as a reflex. And then, being aware of this reflex, I might try to judge the thing more objectively - but who knows with what success?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 3, 2024 22:39:04 GMT -5
So I have acquired (from the library) the previously mentioned Maggie the Mechanic collections. There are no references to were any of the stories come from, just that this is the 'first five years of Locus stories'. It claims them to be presented in 'perfect chronological order' (no idea if that means in story or release. I read the first few and the art is nice (great in the first one, good but rushed feeling in the others) but I'm throughly confused.
The first story 'Mechan-x' is quite good... it feels like it belongs in 2000 AD to me. Fun story, vaguely future sci fi setting with some hints of some interesting overreaching stuff later, but for this 8 pages just a simple, fun story about Maggie and the first day at a new job. It's a bit dated, but perhaps it's supposed to be very 80s.
Next is 'How to Kill a' which is two creepy dialogue-less pages that I think maybe are meant to be Hopey writing something? Or creating a story, while the story is really creating her? Not really sure. Cool panels, but not idea what they are for.
next up is 'Locas Tabien' which is Hopey and Maggie (though to be honest I wasn't clear it was them again until 1/2 way through because the art is much rougher) seem to be at the library helping a new character look for books about witchcraft. They leave the library and go to a friends house then theres a fight and a flashback. Here's where my head hurts.. the friend's name is Izzy... who is credited with writing the first two stories, so are those fiction about the real people? Or is it actually a vaguely sci fi setting? (This story had no scifi like the hover bike, just very 80s) If not, why do we have such opposite and unrelated stories? the 2nd one's main purpose seems to be a monologue by Izzy about a wonky bookshelf.
lastly for today is one page of Penny Century, who asks a weird guy with horns if she can be a superhero. That's enough for now... if I get much more confused I'll be giving up.
(comments/advice welcome)
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Post by commond on Jan 4, 2024 3:34:26 GMT -5
Love and Rockets is an anthology series. What you're reading are the strips that Jaime contributed to the first issue. It wasn't until issue #13 that Jaime decided to concentrate on stories set in Hoppers, so you can expect more random sci-fi stories and slice of life vignettes for a while. There were less strips when the page count was lowered to 36 pages with issue #5.
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Post by Calidore on Jan 4, 2024 8:32:10 GMT -5
It's good to bear in mind that at the time Los Bros were young alt-comics creators doing whatever came to them. They found their grooves relatively quickly, but the earliest stuff is very much seeing what sticks. That's why you'll see suggestions for starting a little ways in. If you want stability and continuity, that might be your best approach.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 4, 2024 23:16:09 GMT -5
The next big chunk (about 40 pages) is Maggie having an adventure in a pretend African nation where there are dinosaurs for some reason (probably just so they can draw them). Still really pretty art, but the diary style makes it so there are just set shots and not really any storytelling or action, even when there are action scenes.
I liked Rena alot... interesting how much wrestling they weave in...and they talk like they're keeping Kayfabe (which makes sense considering the time). That was definitely the most interesting part).
So far I don't like Maggie much... she's the type of character I just don't get at all... lots of whining about nothing and lots of drinking and partying. I'm not sure I'll read a whole lot more if the story shifts to her personal life and the sci fi-ish elements are dropped.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 5, 2024 10:19:00 GMT -5
The next big chunk (about 40 pages) is Maggie having an adventure in a pretend African nation where there are dinosaurs for some reason (probably just so they can draw them). Still really pretty art, but the diary style makes it so there are just set shots and not really any storytelling or action, even when there are action scenes. I liked Rena alot... interesting how much wrestling they weave in...and they talk like they're keeping Kayfabe (which makes sense considering the time). That was definitely the most interesting part). So far I don't like Maggie much... she's the type of character I just don't get at all... lots of whining about nothing and lots of drinking and partying. I'm not sure I'll read a whole lot more if the story shifts to her personal life and the sci fi-ish elements are dropped. To me, that's where the greatness begins. The SF stuff, with adventures, dinosaurs and spaceships, was good fun that I could do without; in fact, I'm glad the French version of Locas skips those chapters entirely. It's with the stories set in Hoppers that Jaime gets into the major literary work leagues, in my opinion. He doesn't do a Garcia Marquez riff the way Gilbert does, but brings in a different flavour of magical realism. The Death of Speedy Ortiz, the story of that black dog who might or might not be the devil, the powerful bond between Hopie and Maggie, the convoluted yet so banal history of the Chascarillo family, they all create a rich tapestry that no other title ever managed to create so brilliantly. But then, as others have said, your mileage may vary. (I also grew very fond of Gilbbert's Palomar, despite not liking his art at all at first!)
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 5, 2024 11:52:24 GMT -5
So I have acquired (from the library) the previously mentioned Maggie the Mechanic collections. There are no references to were any of the stories come from, just that this is the 'first five years of Locus stories'. It claims them to be presented in 'perfect chronological order' (no idea if that means in story or release. I read the first few and the art is nice (great in the first one, good but rushed feeling in the others) but I'm throughly confused. If it's the collection I'm thinking of, it's the Jamie material from L&R in chronological order ... plus a couple of stories which appeared elsewhere, inserted here in chronological order. Sci-fi Maggie! This is a mood piece, which you'll either gravitate to or not. It's not about Hopey; it's about Isabel (Izzy) Ruebens. We see her as a well put together writer her, and ... something dramatic happens to her ... because we see her many years later as the burnout in the next story. The purpose of the story is to show different aspects of the characters' lives. They're a bunch of punks, but Maggie also has a job which takes her to some pretty wild locations and adventures. The threads unite better as the series continues. This is really just a humorous one-shot ... but Penny is also a continuing character and will meet up with Maggie and Hopey later on. To be fair, I never liked Maggie much either. I like it for the other characters and the things happening around her, more than her personally.
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Post by berkley on Jan 5, 2024 21:48:14 GMT -5
I think one of the things that gets L&R compared to literature rather than comics or genre fiction is that the characters aren't necessarily meant to be identified with in the same was as , say, the hero or heroine of a comic or even a detective novel are meant to be: so Maggie and the other characters aren't always going to be likeable but they are going to be interesting (for anyone who ends up enjoying these comics) in many different ways. One of those ways is as a faithful representation of the kind of real-life people Jaime Hernandez observed around him in his personal environment of southern California in the 1970s and '80s - apart from the SF/fantastical elements of some of the early stories - and even then, she's thinking and reacting as one of those people might realistically be expected to do assuming those elements were part of her world, as they are in those early L&R comics.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 5, 2024 21:58:41 GMT -5
Alot of the things you guys are telling me you like about the book are things I generally do like in fiction.. I don't really want realism, just internal consistency. I read to learn or to discover, I don't really care much about people's lives other than my own and my family Roquefort Raider's blurb certainly is intriguing though.. I might have to at least get that story after I finish the trade. The next couple stories are about Penny Century.. who I liked earlier but I liked alot less when the story focuses on her. She seems very vain and insecure in these stories, and as such instead of feeling bad for her I just didn't really care at the end. The art is still really good though.
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Post by commond on Jan 5, 2024 22:26:48 GMT -5
I don't think you're meant to dislike Maggie. She just struggles with self-confidence, especially in the early part of Love and Rockets when things don't work out as she'd hoped with Rand Race. One of her defining traits is that she's always falling for the wrong people, and then when she meets someone compatible she grows restless and leaves for no good reason. She can't fully commit to Hopey, either. That's a large part of why long-time readers were thrilled by the most recent issue of Love and Rockets (Nov 2023.)
It's worth remembering that these stories have been going on for 40 years now. If you've read the series from the beginning to the most recent issue that's a lot of water under the bridge. It also covers a lot of phases in Maggie's life.
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Post by berkley on Jan 6, 2024 6:58:49 GMT -5
I don't think you're meant to dislike Maggie. She just struggles with self-confidence, especially in the early part of Love and Rockets when things don't work out as she'd hoped with Rand Race. One of her defining traits is that she's always falling for the wrong people, and then when she meets someone compatible she grows restless and leaves for no good reason. She can't fully commit to Hopey, either. That's a large part of why long-time readers were thrilled by the most recent issue of Love and Rockets (Nov 2023.) It's worth remembering that these stories have been going on for 40 years now. If you've read the series from the beginning to the most recent issue that's a lot of water under the bridge. It also covers a lot of phases in Maggie's life.
Yeah, I don't find the character hard to like at all, personally - quite the contrary. She's just a kid in the earlier stories, and one should expect a certain degree of impulsiveness, self-focus, emotional over-reactions, flawed judgement, etc, etc. All the characters change and mature over time in one way or another - not always as one would expect.
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