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Post by zaku on Dec 28, 2023 5:47:10 GMT -5
I see many comparing superhero fatigue to western fatigue in the early 70's. Who was there, can you give me your opinion? Was there a moment when it felt like audiences just got tired of cowboys and guns?
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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 28, 2023 6:58:12 GMT -5
It didn't happen all at once, and it happened on TV first. The few remaining weekly prime time westerns were gone by the mid-'70s, Bonanza wrapping up in '73, Gunsmoke in '75. Clint Eastwood was still releasing successful westerns films into the '80s, though the genre was becoming a smaller fraction of film production every year. But I don't think it was "fatigue" that brought its dominance to an end so much as a cultural shift from romanticizing a now century-old past to focusing on a turbulent present (in the form of crime dramas and socially conscious sitcoms like All in the Family) and an uncertain future (sci-fi, both utopian and, more prominently, dystopian). But this is just me wildly speculating at 4AM so take it with the proverbial grain of salt.
Cei-U!
I summon the half-assed theory!
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Post by zaku on Dec 28, 2023 7:05:33 GMT -5
It didn't happen all at once, and it happened on TV first. The few remaining weekly prime time westerns were gone by the mid-'70s, Bonanza wrapping up in '73, Gunsmoke in '75. Clint Eastwood was still releasing successful westerns films into the '80s, though the genre was becoming a smaller fraction of film production every year. But I don't think it was "fatigue" that brought its dominance to an end so much as a cultural shift from romanticizing a now century-old past to focusing on a turbulent present (in the form of crime dramas and socially conscious sitcoms like All in the Family) and an uncertain future (sci-fi, both utopian and, more prominently, dystopian). But this is just me wildly speculating at 4AM so take it with the proverbial grain of salt. Cei-U! I summon the half-assed theory! So you don't see any parallelism with what is happening with superhero movies? (Because I don't think there is a cultural shift about the perception of this genre) Perhaps latest movies are just not that good? 🤷♂️ |
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Post by driver1980 on Dec 28, 2023 8:03:55 GMT -5
Can’t really offer an opinion on Westerns, but I like what Cei-U! wrote. As for superhero movies now, well one thing that is really off-putting to me is how impenetrable it can be, and how some films seem to exist partly to set something else up. Nothing is more off-putting to me than reading a headline such as “DEADPOOL 3 WILL SET UP SECRET WARS” or something. Be careful what you wish for. As a kid, I hoped we might see Christopher Reeve and Michael Keaton appear together. I might have wished for a shared universe. And in some ways, it hasn’t been entirely bad, I did like how early MCU films led to The Avengers. But it is impenetrable now. I haven’t seen The Marvels because I can’t afford a cinema ticket right now. I would have seen it, and am familiar with all that led to it. However, an online friend said he isn’t seeing it because he hasn’t seen Ms. Marvel (he doesn’t have Disney+), and wonders how much backstory he would need. Personally, I’d rather see headlines such as “DEADPOOL 3 WILL BE ABOUT THIS OR THAT” than one suggesting it’ll set up another film or arc. Part of me hopes that we might go back to mostly standalone films, but I know many people probably like arcs and build-up. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 28, 2023 11:22:56 GMT -5
Just to add to what Cei-U! wrote above, you also have to take into account that during the heyday of the TV Western, there were only three networks: ABC, CBS and NBC. Primetime programming hours were from 7:30 till 11 pm. That amounted to 73.5 hours of network programming, of which Westerns accounted for about 18.5 hours, roughly 25 percent of the schedule. (And that doesn't include syndicated Westerns and reruns that ran in independent stations.) That's a lot of cattle drives, shootouts and saloon brawls! In the ten seasons from 1957 through 1966, Westerns were the top-rated program in eight of them. "Gunsmoke" from '57-'61; "Wagon Train" in the '61-'62 season; "Bonanza" from '64-'67. And Westerns didn't just disappear overnight, but as the 60s would down, they did play out. I do think people grew tired of them, but also, in addition to what Cei-U mentioned about changing demographics and tastes, the 60s were a time of escalating violence culminating with the traumatic assassinations of Dr. King and RFK within weeks of each other. An outcry against the prevalence of guns and the rise in violence arose, affecting not just the kids' cartoons, but the primetime lineups as well. Various public interest groups like Action for Children’s Television and the National Parent Teachers Association put pressure on the networks and demanded the government do something to safeguard children’s TV programming about the violence on television. PS: Here's a curiosity piece. Time's cover a few weeks after RFK's assassination...  And the accompanying information on gun deaths: "Since the turn of the century, nearly 800,000 U.S. citizens have been killed by privately owned guns, v. 630,768 Americans killed in all the nation's wars. The U.S. suffered more than 20,000 gun fatalities last year, including 7,000 murders and homicides, 3,000 accidental deaths and 10,000 suicides. Another 100,000 were wounded by gunfire." Compare that with this year's horrifying toll: "As of Dec. 7, at least 40,167 people have died from gun violence in the U.S. this year, according to the Gun Violence Archive – which is an average of almost 118 deaths each day. Of those who died, 1,306 were teens and 276 were children. Deaths by suicide have made up the vast majority of gun violence deaths this year. There's been 22,506 deaths by gun suicide this year, an average of about 66 deaths by suicide per day in 2023. The majority of these deaths have occurred in Texas, California, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Illinois and Louisiana. The grim tally of gun violence deaths includes 1,344 people killed in police officer-involved shootings. Forty-six police officers have been fatally shot in the line of duty this year. There also have been 1,472 "unintentional" shootings, the Gun Violence Archive shows. There have been more than 632 mass shootings in 2023 so far, which is defined by the Gun Violence Archive as an incident in which four or more victims are shot or killed. These mass shootings have led to 597 deaths and 2,380 injuries." What's that old saw? The more things change, the worse they get? |
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Post by The Captain on Dec 28, 2023 12:29:27 GMT -5
Can’t really offer an opinion on Westerns, but I like what Cei-U! wrote. As for superhero movies now, well one thing that is really off-putting to me is how impenetrable it can be, and how some films seem to exist partly to set something else up. Nothing is more off-putting to me than reading a headline such as “DEADPOOL 3 WILL SET UP SECRET WARS” or something. Be careful what you wish for. As a kid, I hoped we might see Christopher Reeve and Michael Keaton appear together. I might have wished for a shared universe. And in some ways, it hasn’t been entirely bad, I did like how early MCU films led to The Avengers. But it is impenetrable now. I haven’t seen The Marvels because I can’t afford a cinema ticket right now. I would have seen it, and am familiar with all that led to it. However, an online friend said he isn’t seeing it because he hasn’t seen Ms. Marvel (he doesn’t have Disney+), and wonders how much backstory he would need. Personally, I’d rather see headlines such as “DEADPOOL 3 WILL BE ABOUT THIS OR THAT” than one suggesting it’ll set up another film or arc. Part of me hopes that we might go back to mostly standalone films, but I know many people probably like arcs and build-up. Tell your friend that seeing Ms Marvel is not required to understand or enjoy The Marvels. All that he would miss is seeing how big of a super-major-mega Carol Danvers fan that Kamala Khan is and that Kamala's family are an absolute treat, but the movie pretty much gets you up to speed on those two points fairly quickly. I agree with you that since Endgame, each movie property (other than The Eternals) is nothing more than set-up for the next thing. The only post-Endgame movie I've watched more than once (and I have Disney+) was The Eternals, only to see if it got better upon second viewing (I felt it did as a stand-alone story, but much like Kirby's comics run, it really doesn't fit into the Marvel universe and is somehow diminished by making it do so). Dr. Strange 2, Quantumania, GotG 3; each of them is a deeply flawed movie that doesn't draw me to it for rewatching like many of the early MCU films. Now, the Disney+ shows have been better than the movies for the most part. Hawkeye, Falcon & Winter Soldier, Ms Marvel, Loki Season 2 (did NOT like the first one, more from the technical aspect in that the green screen was WAY too noticeable), and even She-Hulk were solid. Wandavision was good the first time through, but once you know the misdirect, it loses its charm, and Moon Knight was god-awful. |
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Post by Calidore on Dec 28, 2023 13:24:12 GMT -5
It didn't happen all at once, and it happened on TV first. The few remaining weekly prime time westerns were gone by the mid-'70s, Bonanza wrapping up in '73, Gunsmoke in '75. Clint Eastwood was still releasing successful westerns films into the '80s, though the genre was becoming a smaller fraction of film production every year. But I don't think it was "fatigue" that brought its dominance to an end so much as a cultural shift from romanticizing a now century-old past to focusing on a turbulent present (in the form of crime dramas and socially conscious sitcoms like All in the Family) and an uncertain future (sci-fi, both utopian and, more prominently, dystopian). But this is just me wildly speculating at 4AM so take it with the proverbial grain of salt. Cei-U! I summon the half-assed theory!
More cultural shift than burnout would be my take also. Westerns were huge for a very long time; not just in the movies and on television, but there were tons of westerns on the radio before and during the TV boom, as well as in print with novels, comics, magazines....
In the '70s, we also got very flawed "good guys" (French Connection) and romanticized bad guys (Godfather). Not to mention a war IRL the likes and divisiveness of which we'd never seen. Maybe the clear-cut westerns of White Hats vs. Black Hats just seemed too simplistic when people were starting to want more than gung-ho.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Dec 28, 2023 14:25:53 GMT -5
I think part of the "super-hero fatigue" issue with people pointing to box office results being down as a sign people aren't interested is that people are ignoring a lot of people now don't want to and don't have to leave their house to go see a movie. Certain movies are still making "big" box office, but overall fewer people are going to the cinemas to see movies. In our area, and back home near my mom, several theatres have closed because they weren't drawing enough custom in the post-Covid era. Others have reduced the number of screens that have and remodeled to provide seating that is more reminiscent of the home theatre experience-reclining seats with cup holders, more space between aisles for fewer seats in each auditorium as well as fewer screens overall, trying to offer an upgraded experience they can charge more for for the smaller audience sizes they are seeing. There is still a FOMO crowd that won't wait, and some who just like the theatre experience for movies, but there is also a large portion of movie watchers willing to wait the three months to see movies in the comfort of their own home on their big screen TV with stereo sound who just aren't going to go to the theatres to allow these big super-hero movies the opportunity to achieve the box office numbers we saw pre-Covid.
And online reactions are not trustworthy. There are some groups who take it upon themselves as their agenda to review-bomb any movie that doesn't fit their world view (mostly an anti-woke agenda) and this is particularly active with super-hero and genre movies. Their efforts create a perception of negative views and attitudes that often do not align with those of the silent majority who are watching and enjoying the features.
Do I think the luster has come off the super-hero genre? Yes, a bit. Even for those who love them still, it is easy to take them for granted. There are so many new projects it is hard to see any of them as the "event" most of the earlier ones that created the super-hero phenomenon were. Plus, as we get more of them, we tend to look at them more critically. We're not just grateful to have a super-hero movie or show that doesn't suck, our expectations have grown. And we still have rose-colored glasses perspective on the earlier ones as our joy of just having something that didn't suck hid or led us to ignore the flaws and warts they had, which we notice much more in the newer offerings. The more we have, the more we demand and expect, and the more likely we are to be disappointed. Again, nothing can recreate the joy of experiencing Iron Man on the big screen for the first time, especially since it didn't suck. Or seeing the Avengers assemble for the first time and thinking, I never believed this could happen, it's so cool. But now we're past that joy of discovery phase. The honeymoon is over, and our expectations are higher. What was cool or even acceptable before because of that honeymoon phase, is not any longer. Is that super-hero fatigue or simple changing expectations or familiarity breeding contempt.
The other difference between the decline of westerns in the 70s and now is the amount of choices we have in entertainment and our access to it. In 1970 if you wanted to see a movie or TV show, it had to be playing at a cinema or on one of the TV networks. If not, the chances of you getting to see it were slim to none unless you could actually acquire a copy of the film reels and had a place to screen it. Chances of seeing a movie several times over the years after its initial release were slim, and opportunities to do so might require some outlay of money or effort to achieve. Now, you can watch any offering that has been released any time you want, usually at no extra cost and little effort. That is a seismic shift in the culture of consuming entertainment. Ease of access where supply outstrips demand reduces the value of something in the eyes of consumers.
So there are a lot of factors other than the content of the movies/shows themselves that are impacting this downturn in public perception of super-hero content. The word changed significantly between the start of the MCU in 2008 the era when every release would set new box office records and the post-Covid world of Quantummania, Doc Strange 2, The Marvels, The Flash, etc. But you don't hear a lot about that stuff from the folks pushing the super-hero fatigue agenda.
-M
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 28, 2023 22:07:56 GMT -5
I also think distance from the actual historical period was a factor in things. Westerns have been around as long as film, with actual Western figures involved in some early ones (like Pancho Villa). That was recent history. As time progressed, and technology progressed, we got further and further from it. You also had a trend away from smaller rural communities to more urban environments, as the century progressed. By the 1970s, the population of the US was highly urbanized, depending on the region, so the Western didn't resonate as strongly.
You also had changes in how the Western was presented. By the 1950s, they were becoming more allegorical, with things like High Noon using them as metaphors for present times. By the 1970s, with film technology becoming more sophisticated, sci-fi started taking on more of that role. Also, literature had moved further and further away from the Western and you had less of them to act as source material for film scripts, while science fiction had grown, as had crime fiction. So, by the 1970s, you see more sci-fi offerings and more sophisticated ones, as well as more urban crime thrillers and dramas.
A lot of the Westerns you did see in the 1970s were about the End of the West, as it transitioned to the 20th Century. You had The Shootist, about an aging gunfighter, facing cancer, who comes to a growing city to die, where he encounters motor cars and streetcars. You also had Bite the Bullet, about a long distance endurance race, during Teddy Roosevelt's presidency, which includes a pair of disillusioned Rough Riders and an ex-Confederate soldier/cowhand, who just wanted to be a winner. It heavily reflects post-Vietnam attitudes, in fighting a war begun under dubious circumstances and men who either had been on the losing side of a war (Ben Johnson, as the ex-Confederate), or didn't understand the changing society (Gene Hackman's character) or were outsiders to society (the Mexican character and Candace Bergen's ex-prostitute). The infamous Heaven's Gate was set in the 1890s. Clint Eastwood's Outlaw Josey Wales is another about being a survivor of a war that tore people apart and being on the losing side, while High Plains drifter was about an anti-hero, who thumbs his nose at the society of the small town, but is also a supernatural story, fitting in with the rise of horror films.
I think "superhero fatigue" is more of just media buzzwords to try to sell stories when it mostly boils down to the fact that the Marvel films have fallen into a creative valley, after building to an initial climax. You lost a lot of the actors, told the big stories and you are now left with lesser characters and concepts and needing new actors, if you want to use those characters. They tried adding substitutes; but, it hasn't worked out as well. I think it is more that Marvel wasn't giving the audience a reason to really care about the latest slate of films. I think they would be better served developing some of their properties to be stand-alone features, rather than linked to some grand epic. You can do crossovers, too; but, You could do a Two-Gun Kid film and not have to have it lead to the birth of Captain America, or something. Explore the supernatural properties, go nuts with something like Omega The Unknown, do Killraven (please!), etc..
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Dec 29, 2023 14:09:06 GMT -5
The only post-Endgame movie I've watched more than once (and I have Disney+) was The Eternals, only to see if it got better upon second viewing Preach, brutha'! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 29, 2023 14:26:02 GMT -5
I think another key factor in the decline of the Western genre is the emergence of science fiction as a viable genre for television and film. Once shows like Star Trek, Doctor Who, and Lost in Space were making the genre look semi-believable on sensible budgets, it was far greater candy for the eye and mind than what Westerns could offer. And once big budget sci-fi began conquering the movie theaters a decade later, gunslingers and cattle robbers must have seemed pretty lackluster in comparion.
In that respect, I don't think the decline of Westerns is comparable to the decline of the superhero.
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 29, 2023 14:39:33 GMT -5
It didn't happen all at once, and it happened on TV first. The few remaining weekly prime time westerns were gone by the mid-'70s, Bonanza wrapping up in '73, Gunsmoke in '75. Clint Eastwood was still releasing successful westerns films into the '80s, though the genre was becoming a smaller fraction of film production every year. But I don't think it was "fatigue" that brought its dominance to an end so much as a cultural shift from romanticizing a now century-old past to focusing on a turbulent present (in the form of crime dramas and socially conscious sitcoms like All in the Family) and an uncertain future (sci-fi, both utopian and, more prominently, dystopian). But this is just me wildly speculating at 4AM so take it with the proverbial grain of salt. Cei-U! I summon the half-assed theory!
More cultural shift than burnout would be my take also. Westerns were huge for a very long time; not just in the movies and on television, but there were tons of westerns on the radio before and during the TV boom, as well as in print with novels, comics, magazines....
In the '70s, we also got very flawed "good guys" (French Connection) and romanticized bad guys (Godfather). Not to mention a war IRL the likes and divisiveness of which we'd never seen. Maybe the clear-cut westerns of White Hats vs. Black Hats just seemed too simplistic when people were starting to want more than gung-ho.
Yes to that latter notion, because they'd been burned out by the preponderance of that good guy-bad guy stuff on TV. (Westerns also got way gimmicky as they tried to separate themselves from the rest of the stuff on the schedule: One-armed cowboys; one-of-a-kind guns; even a cowboy who used his shiny hatband to blind his opponents in shootouts! As for the radio and comic book popularity of Westerns, the radio Westerns were all gone by 1955, with the exception of "Gunsmoke," which debuted in 1952, preceding the TV show by three years; and "Have Gun Will Travel," which appeared simultaneously for the first couple of seasons of the TV show, ending in 1960. And there were tons of Western comics throughout the 50s, from all kinds of companies, but the Big Two were ahead of the curve. Except for outliers like Kid Colt and Rawhide Kid, each of which soon became as much super-heroic as Western in style, the Atlas/Marvel titles were all gone by 1960; over at DC, All-American Western was gone after April of 1952, and the final issues of Western Comics and All-Star Western appeared in November 1960 and April 1961 respectively. To be sure, movie Westerns were immensely popular in the 50s and deep into the 60s, the majority of them B-movies and bottom halves of double-features.By the mid-60s, however, the sheer volume of them diminished just as it had on TV in favor of fewer and more "adult" Westerns like "The Professionals" (1966). Even though Wayne, Stewart and Fonda were aging, they remained popular and appeared in Westerns that took the edgier approach to both violence and the Western mythos, and they were successful, though not blockbusters. The notable exceptions were two unicorns, "Butch Cassidy" and "True Grit;" "The Wild Bunch" that was both celebrated and decried as the end of the Western movie as we had known it. By the late '60s, Westerns had become much more of a niche attraction than they had ever been. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 29, 2023 14:56:19 GMT -5
Y'know, another factor in superhero fatigue may be the "been there, done that" feeling that sets in whenever you see a city/ world/ solar system/ universe/ cosmos/ reality/ existence on the brink of destruction.
Just how many times can the storytellers go to that well?
That's what took the luster off the annual JLA-JSA team-up for me and led to the annual requirement to top the number of previous teams and characters involved. Once you rev up the scale, where do you go from there except "bigger and better?" The more characters in the story, the less you see any of them and the less you really know any of them.
I'm sure the same thing is true of all of the various "Events," "Wars," and "Crises" that have become a staple at Marvel and DC.
Fortunately for me, I can't say that with any real authority.
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Post by driver1980 on Dec 29, 2023 18:08:01 GMT -5
Y'know, another factor in superhero fatigue may be the "been there, done that" feeling that sets in whenever you see a city/ world/ solar system/ universe/ cosmos/ reality/ existence on the brink of destruction. Just how many times can the storytellers go to that well? That's what took the luster off the annual JLA-JSA team-up for me and led to the annual requirement to top the number of previous teams and characters involved. Once you rev up the scale, where do you go from there except "bigger and better?" The more characters in the story, the less you see any of them and the less you really know any of them. I'm sure the same thing is true of all of the various "Events," "Wars," and "Crises" that have become a staple at Marvel and DC. Fortunately for me, I can't say that with any real authority. I agree with this. I often feel that way about wrestling “upping the ante” with its gimmick matches. Gimmick matches such as Hell in a Cell and ladder matches really peaked for me years ago. Today, they can take the two most talented guys and put them in Hell in a Cell, or put a ladder in the ring, but I may be numb to it because I feel I’ve seen the best of those gimmick matches way back in time. So, I prefer it when wrestling goes back to basics with solid, believable, character-driven matches that are traditional. The parallel for me with superhero films is that I’d much rather see character-driven, relatively low-key story (e.g. Spidey going after Shocker) than see yet another movie featuring a cosmic event. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 29, 2023 19:29:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure that super-hero fatigue is due to viewers being tired of super-heroes. It's just that as a genre, such movies were pretty good for a while (thus generating a trend) and have been pretty sucky for the last few years. Paying good money to see a super-hero film is no longer a sure bet (far from it!) and so it sounds more prudent to wait and see.
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