shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Jan 11, 2024 10:11:29 GMT -5
Stuff like that would allow them to explore so many other genres and still give the feeling of existing in a shared fantastical universe without literally every story needing to directly feed into the next. It would save a ton on budget, too. Isn't what you're describing the early Netflix Marvel shows? Jessica Jones, Agents of SHIELD, even Daredevil? And DC had Gotham. |
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Post by zaku on Jan 11, 2024 10:18:09 GMT -5
I think you're right, and that is a great point. It's also such a shame. Imagine how cool a movie or series based on, say, Alias, could be, with Jessica Jones or some other detective or something dealing with their own problems that just happens to live in the MCU. Let the superheroics be just tone dressing. Newspapers about such and such villain, walk by and see the news or people talking about Spider Man in a bagel shop, etc. Well, you are right, the Jessica Jones show was great  |
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Post by zaku on Jan 11, 2024 10:18:47 GMT -5
Stuff like that would allow them to explore so many other genres and still give the feeling of existing in a shared fantastical universe without literally every story needing to directly feed into the next. It would save a ton on budget, too. Isn't what you're describing the early Netflix Marvel shows? Jessica Jones, Agents of SHIELD, even Daredevil? And DC had Gotham. They are saying great things about Echo too! |
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Post by impulse on Jan 11, 2024 12:18:44 GMT -5
Stuff like that would allow them to explore so many other genres and still give the feeling of existing in a shared fantastical universe without literally every story needing to directly feed into the next. It would save a ton on budget, too. Isn't what you're describing the early Netflix Marvel shows? Jessica Jones, Agents of SHIELD, even Daredevil? And DC had Gotham. In essence, but more grounded. They got a bit superheroy at the end, but yes. Or stuff like Winter Solider which was a spy thriller that happened to be set in the MCU, though that was certainly big budget as well. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 11, 2024 23:05:02 GMT -5
I think the success of the MCU cycle (from Iron Man to the end of the Infinity War) killed the genre dead.. it just took a while for people to realize it.
That series of movies was brilliant... it took all the top level characters people wanted to see... but great actors in those roles, and gave comic books fans what they wanted. Move importantly, that stuck enough with the big, famous tropes that every could get in on the fun and understand it.
Now? No one wants an origin story, but if it's a character mainstream people don't know about, how can you not tell the origin? The star power of Spider-Man and Hulk has given way to 'oh, Ms. Marvel? Is that a real superhero?' Never mind that every movie has the same plot. People want the movie to 'count' towards something bigger, but get mad if it's all just set up. It's a no win scenario right now.
I think the crayons need to go back in the box for a while to be honest... maybe in 10 years they can do some new stuff people will like again.
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Post by zaku on Jan 12, 2024 5:39:45 GMT -5
I think the success of the MCU cycle (from Iron Man to the end of the Infinity War) killed the genre dead.. it just took a while for people to realize it. That series of movies was brilliant... it took all the top level characters people wanted to see... but great actors in those roles, and gave comic books fans what they wanted. Move importantly, that stuck enough with the big, famous tropes that every could get in on the fun and understand it. Now? No one wants an origin story, but if it's a character mainstream people don't know about, how can you not tell the origin? The star power of Spider-Man and Hulk has given way to 'oh, Ms. Marvel? Is that a real superhero?' Never mind that every movie has the same plot. People want the movie to 'count' towards something bigger, but get mad if it's all just set up. It's a no win scenario right now. I think the crayons need to go back in the box for a while to be honest... maybe in 10 years they can do some new stuff people will like again. Yep. One of the most successful recent superhero movies, The Batman, totally skipped the origin part (it's set two years after his debut). I'm wondering what they'll do for the next Superman reboot. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Jan 12, 2024 10:34:39 GMT -5
That series of movies was brilliant... it took all the top level characters people wanted to see... but great actors in those roles, and gave comic books fans what they wanted. Move importantly, that stuck enough with the big, famous tropes that every could get in on the fun and understand it. While I generally agree with your post, I actually don't think you're giving Marvel enough credit here. They built the MCU with the second-rate leftover properties that they couldn't sell to Fox or Sony a few years earlier. X-Men and Spidey were what fans wanted most until the MCU made properties like Iron Man and Captain America cool again, and Black Widow and Loki cool for arguably the first time. I think they also invented a lot of the tropes that they and others have retread to death ever since. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 12, 2024 10:48:07 GMT -5
That series of movies was brilliant... it took all the top level characters people wanted to see... but great actors in those roles, and gave comic books fans what they wanted. Move importantly, that stuck enough with the big, famous tropes that every could get in on the fun and understand it. While I generally agree with your post, I actually don't think you're giving Marvel enough credit here. They built the MCU with the second-rate leftover properties that they couldn't sell to Fox or Sony a few years earlier. X-Men and Spidey were what fans wanted most until the MCU made properties like Iron Man and Captain America cool again, and Black Widow and Loki cool for arguably the first time. I think they also invented a lot of the tropes that they and others have retread to death ever since. Bingo. Iron Man was a decidedly second-rate property that no studios wanted to buy the rights to. Nobody but comic book nerds were clambering for an Iron Man movie. |
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Post by zaku on Jan 12, 2024 11:07:45 GMT -5
While I generally agree with your post, I actually don't think you're giving Marvel enough credit here. They built the MCU with the second-rate leftover properties that they couldn't sell to Fox or Sony a few years earlier. X-Men and Spidey were what fans wanted most until the MCU made properties like Iron Man and Captain America cool again, and Black Widow and Loki cool for arguably the first time. I think they also invented a lot of the tropes that they and others have retread to death ever since. Bingo. Iron Man was a decidedly second-rate property that no studios wanted to buy the rights to. Nobody but comic book nerds were clambering for an Iron Man movie. And who the heck wanted a Guardian of the Galaxy movie? And still it was one of the best! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 12, 2024 23:59:05 GMT -5
I don't know about that... I was super excited about Iron Man...and when they did the post credit scene I was totally over the moon much more so than anything with the Sony or Fox movies. Iron Man and Captain America were still pretty well known to the public before the movies... much more so that Moon Knight and Ant Man. Also, I didn't want a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, and still think it was terrible  I didn't even make it through the 2nd one. |
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Post by driver1980 on Jan 13, 2024 5:44:47 GMT -5
While I generally agree with your post, I actually don't think you're giving Marvel enough credit here. They built the MCU with the second-rate leftover properties that they couldn't sell to Fox or Sony a few years earlier. X-Men and Spidey were what fans wanted most until the MCU made properties like Iron Man and Captain America cool again, and Black Widow and Loki cool for arguably the first time. I think they also invented a lot of the tropes that they and others have retread to death ever since. Bingo. Iron Man was a decidedly second-rate property that no studios wanted to buy the rights to. Nobody but comic book nerds were clambering for an Iron Man movie. I’ve always wondered by why no studio snapped up the rights to Captain America. Was he not part of the zeitgeist when studios were buying rights? Would you say that Cap was akin to Iron Man as far as perceptions and studio rights are concerned? |
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Post by Mormel on Jan 13, 2024 8:08:07 GMT -5
I don't know about that... I was super excited about Iron Man...and when they did the post credit scene I was totally over the moon much more so than anything with the Sony or Fox movies. Iron Man and Captain America were still pretty well known to the public before the movies... much more so that Moon Knight and Ant Man. Also, I didn't want a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, and still think it was terrible I didn't even make it through the 2nd one. I think with Cap and Tony it's more like many geeks and nerds knew who they were at the time, since aside from being two of the Avengers Big 3 with enduring solo books, they had appeared in cartoons and video games, but the average movie goer would not have known who they were. |
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Post by zaku on Jan 13, 2024 10:17:05 GMT -5
I don't know about that... I was super excited about Iron Man...and when they did the post credit scene I was totally over the moon much more so than anything with the Sony or Fox movies. Iron Man and Captain America were still pretty well known to the public before the movies... much more so that Moon Knight and Ant Man. Also, I didn't want a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, and still think it was terrible I didn't even make it through the 2nd one. I think with Cap and Tony it's more like many geeks and nerds knew who they were at the time, since aside from being two of the Avengers Big 3 with enduring solo books, they had appeared in cartoons and video games, but the average movie goer would not have known who they were. I absolutely agree. I remember watching the first Iron Man with friends who had no idea who he was. Always remember that comics are read by thousands of people, films seen by MILLIONS. And not just in the United States. Maybe someone there remembered Iron Man from some old cartoon, but what about the rest of the world? |
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Post by impulse on Jan 13, 2024 11:04:32 GMT -5
Yeah, in context of the times the licensing happened in the 90s and the comic book movies started being successful in the late 90s on, X-Men and Spider Man were MASSIVE properties. Iron Man and Cap may have been well known to the comic book fans, but Wolverine and Spidey were known to everyone.
By the mid-00s I'm sure a decent number of people remembered Iron Man, but the amount of people who asked for let alone cared about an Iron Man movie was probably non-existent.
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Post by zaku on Feb 16, 2024 6:22:23 GMT -5
One of my favorite reviewers (James Berardinelli),while writing about "Madame Web", summed up the problem with all Sony Spider-Verse films where the protagonist isn't Spider-Man: bad writing.
I know it's a simplistic reduction, but it's fascinating to try to understand why the best Spider-Verse films fail to reach the average quality of the MCU films. And it's not simply a "fidelity to the source material" issue: a movie can replicate a comic book panel for panel and still be a bad movie. Or stray far from its origins (Guardians of The Galaxy) and be a great film. Is it always the fault of the famous "studio interference"? Or they just can't find any decent screenwriters around (I honestly doubt). Or are these films increasingly a kind of monster created on an assembly line controlled by a thousand different interests without anyone supervising the final product?
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I didn't even make it through the 2nd one.
