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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 24, 2024 15:01:19 GMT -5
I was asked by theturok in another thread what my thoughts were on each Valiant title, and I thought it made sense to repeat my answers here. I'd be curious to see how my tastes line up with those of my fellow Valiant fanatics. Archer & Armstrong: Loved Armstrong as a solo character, but not the contrived odd-couple pairing. I much prefered when Aram and Gilad were paired together. Huge fan of the two characters here. I loved the odd couple aspect, but mostly the almost meta attitude of Armstrong; he acted as if he knew he was a character in a story, couldn't do anything about it, and might as well enjoy it. It made any pain he might suffer a little harder to believe (as happened when Archer died in Rai #0), but it made for some very humorous moments. I did enjoy the post-BWS issues, but to a lesser extent; Archer seemed to lose some of his innocence, gained weight, and he was in peril of becoming just another comic-book martial artist; still, the book stayed enjoyable to the end. I have a few issues. Sort of generic (it really reads like G.I. Joe in armors), but the design of the suits was nice and the mag gave us honest, straightforward action. What I most enjoyed about Bloodshot was his historical connection to Rai; as a hero, yeah... he was another fast-haeling dude with guns. I only have the first issue. It has a few BWS pages, and that's about all the good I can say about it. I often found Master Darque and anything related to him pretty lame, but Dr Mirage had something that's kind of rare in comics: a believable and endearing relationship between two spouses. That was once seriously cute couple, and readers caring for what happens to characters is a large part of what makes any story successful I like the idea of Eternal Warrior more than the execution. I found it consistently all right, but never outstanding. The best issue IMO was #1. I enjoyed this one well enough; it was like a cross between G.I. Joe and Strikeforce Morituri, but aimed at 13 year olds. Like many of the Valiant team titles, it was an average read most of the time. I really enjoyed the build-up to issue #24, and the cataclysmic dispersal of the first group. After that, it seemed to turn into the New Mutants (the Sal Buscema era). My favourite part was the Malev war; before that the series was a little simplistic in its socialist hero message; after that, I thought jumping so many years in the future might not have been a good idea. Psi-Lords read like a spin-off of a spin-off. It's good to have continuity, but this was pushing it a little; these guys were fine as secondary characters, but not really as the starrs of their own book. By later Rai I suppose you mean the one from the Malev one and not the one that came after that one! I did enjoy Rai for all of its course -especially since most of my issues are about the Malev war. [/quote] It made a Bob Hall fan out of me! my favourite run is around the time he got stabbed and thought he was going to die. I really liked the mix of street-level action and mysticism. Solar as a man-turned-god was quite a challenge, but it worked. I really didn't care for his mohawked double, though! I have a couple of issues in which the penciller really tries to be John Byrne. I enjoyed it to some extent, but I'd much rather have had more Archer and Armstrong. Agreed. I thought the way Valiant managed to keep him as a dinosaur hunter in today's world was clever as hell, and I applauded the idea that the time-lost land he had originally been in was not an actual valley in the United States, but as a series I found it a little prdictable and not that original. One of my very favourite Valiant titles, until they f%$? it up towards the end by killing everyone but Aric. I especially appreciated the way time travel was handled. This is also the only series where I didn't find the spider aliens boring.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 7:18:54 GMT -5
I often found Master Darque and anything related to him pretty lame, but Dr Mirage had something that's kind of rare in comics: a believable and endearing relationship between two spouses. That was once seriously cute couple, and readers caring for what happens to characters is a large part of what makes any story successful. I might need to give this another try. One thing I felt Valiant did exceptonally well was target their demographics, and my problem with this one might well have been that I was 14 and reading about a married couple. I might appreciate it a lot better now. I'm with you on this. It's been years since I even tried to read the rest, but my feelings then were similar to my issues with Bloodshot -- such a cool concept, and then the guy is just getting into scraps with mob stooges and such. I can get into street-level heroes, but not when they start off with a backstory that's so expansive and imaginative. It just felt like a sort of bait-and-switch: "Let's follow these undying heroes through time and learn the nature of their strange powers...by punching out thugs in warehouses a lot." I'm sure Shooter's departure had a lot to do with the change. Hmmmm. I never saw the Strikeforce Morituri resemblance beyond their having powers that can be switched on. What am I missing? You have a lot more patience for this series than I did. I still adore #0 to this day and find #1-9 interesting enough, but once the team's first death is worked through, and that major surprise twist during Unity is worked through, the title just felt like it was treading water to me, introducing new characters and conflicts that I just wasn't invested in. Harbinger began as a more grounded, more powerful version of X-Men and then just...wasn't. Maybe the problem was the team lacking an emotional center. We never got to a point where they felt like a family to me, and I think that's essential to any non-Avengers superhero team. I mean, one could say the same about having the Malevs destroy North Am. But I felt they followed it up with good stories and some phenomenal characterization. It's truly my favorite era of Magnus until Tony Bedard's departure. The Third Rai (the one after the Malev War) is probably my favorite aspect of the Terran Consortium Era. I can so clearly see why this book is great. I just...don't like it. And that really bugs me. Ugh. The Destroyer. Fans loved him, and I have no idea why. He was like an un-ironic Guy Gardner. Totally disagree, though, in hindsight, I wonder if Timewalker was just a poor man's Dr. Who. I really need to read it again.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 25, 2024 8:44:12 GMT -5
Re: H.a.r.d. coprs Hmmmm. I never saw the Strikeforce Morituri resemblance beyond their having powers that can be switched on. What am I missing? I see a parallel between the two groups in that their members are artificially enhanced and no longer the masters of their own fate; in both cases, they must obey the diktats of the organization that made them into living weapons (either the government or Omen enterprises). There's also the impending doom aspect: one team is by default condemned to death by its powers, while the other must return to a catatonic state if it underperforms. Re: Harbinger That is a good point. I think the book was headed that way shortly before issue 24, but Peter Stanchek was a whiny teenager from day one and I don't find that particularly endearing. One thing that came to mind yesterday is how once Shooter was gone, it was as if the well of ideas had quickly run dry. For example, while new titles were produced, we had several iterations of the same basic concept: that of a group of individuals given superpowers by technological means to serve the interests of some organization (either legit or shady).H.A.R.D. corps was formed by Omen enterprises to fight Toyo Harada; the Armorines were formed by the U.S. army to fight its enemies; the Psi-Lords were a future version of H.A.R.D. corps (with better technology); the Secret Weapons (initially Valiant's version of the Defenders before an internal reboot) had super-powered suits by that outfit Ninjak worked for. In all cases we had basically the same characters (the muscle, the girl, the maverick, the guy most likely to betray the team at some point), the same dynamic (bickering today, acting out of comradeship tomorrow), the same conflict with authority ('it's not because you gave me these powers that you're the boss of me"), etc. It felt very formulaic, even if the trappings were different. By the way, you're spot on with your description of Solar the Destroyer as a Guy Gardner wannabe. No wonder I found the character irksome!
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 25, 2024 8:46:42 GMT -5
Eternal Warrior was a very good book. He did involve himself in espionage type stories but he also had other supernatural opponents from time to time. It last 50 issues but the artwork was really subpar. When the idea man was ousted, the people in charge churned out uninspired books. I also agree that X-O was really good but only until maybe issue # 20. I remember losing interest in Harbinger with issue #16.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 9:19:19 GMT -5
Re: H.a.r.d. coprs Hmmmm. I never saw the Strikeforce Morituri resemblance beyond their having powers that can be switched on. What am I missing? I see a parallel between the two groups in that their members are artificially enhanced and no longer the masters of their own fate; in both cases, they must obey the diktats of the organization that made them into living weapons (either the government or Omen enterprises). There's also the impending doom aspect: one team is by default condemned to death by its powers, while the other must return to a catatonic state if it underperforms. Interesting analysis. I wasn't aware the premise was that carefully considered. I may need to give this another chance. Add to this how many smart concepts Shooter left us that were utterly underused once he was gone. Eternal Warrior and Rai/Bloodshot most immediately come to mind, but you could probably argue this applied to most titles on some level. There were some big shakeups (Magnus #21, Harbinger #24, etc) but no real vision for what most of these properties should be doing otherwise.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 9:22:57 GMT -5
Eternal Warrior was a very good book. He did involve himself in espionage type stories but he also had other supernatural opponents from time to time. It last 50 issues but the artwork was really subpar. When the idea man was ousted, the people in charge churned out uninspired books. But the idea man was ousted after issue #3. I think X-O lost its appeal immediately after Shooter left. Once again, a Valiant title was suddenly about fighting mobs and gangs instead of its original intended scope. What specifically happened in #16?
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 9:34:53 GMT -5
Here's another way to look at things:
Which Valiant titles were still at all memorable post-Unity? Not asking which ones remained "good enough," but rather which ones actually stood out from the crowd after Shooter? I'd say...
Magnus: Went from a whiny and rebellious twat throwing a hissy fit to the sweeping kinetic energy of the Malev War and the human drama that was the Terran Consortium Era after.
Solar: I last read these issues about twenty years ago, but I remember continuing to find the characterization and internal conflicts compelling. Even The Destroyer (who was a lazy, terrible idea) came about as the result of a fascinating inner conflict.
Timewalker: Just so much fun, issue after issue.
I've also heard good things about Quantum & Woody, which came about after the original Valiant Heroes universe had already been abandoned.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 25, 2024 9:42:35 GMT -5
You have mentioned Timewalker a few times and I only ever bought #1. I remember thinking that there were two many brothers and they were diluting the concept. As for Harbinger #16, it was the poor art and the on the run aspect , which I liked, was missing from the book. Also, I remember going to a con that had this particular book on sale for 1 dollar. It had just come out that month. I also was caught up in the speculation market and seeing it for almost nothing made me lose interest.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 9:51:47 GMT -5
You have mentioned Timewalker a few times and I only ever bought #1. I remember thinking that there were two many brothers and they were diluting the concept. You're probably right. I'm pretty sure he wasn't mentioned anywhere in their origin story. But it was so much fun that I didn't care. After years of sci-fi stories so deeply concerned with polluting the timeline, this guy just didn't care, and it was refreshing and hilarious watching him repeatedly make a mess of things. In hindsight, I truly wonder if my entire obsession with Harbinger stemmed from issue #0, which was written after the fact by Lapham, I think. Shooter had a few outstanding plot points, but nothing else in the execution that seemed particularly worthwhile. Once he was gone, I truly don't think there was anything worthwhile about the run. As a kid, it took me only one more issue than it took you to realize I wasn't excited to read these anymore. I had spent insane money for an adolescent to acquire a full run up to this point and was telling anyone that would listen how Harbinger was my favorite comic ever, and yet I looked at that crappy cover for #17 and realized there was nothing I was looking forward to experiencing within either. I still stuck around through, I think, #27, though.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 25, 2024 9:59:55 GMT -5
You have mentioned Timewalker a few times and I only ever bought #1. I remember thinking that there were two many brothers and they were diluting the concept. You're probably right. I'm pretty sure he wasn't mentioned anywhere in their origin story. But it was so much fun that I didn't care. After years of sci-fi stories so deeply concerned with polluting the timeline, this guy just didn't care, and it was refreshing and hilarious watching him repeatedly make a mess of things. In hindsight, I truly wonder if my entire obsession with Harbinger stemmed from issue #0, which was written after the fact by Lapham, I think. Shooter had a few outstanding plot points, but nothing else in the execution that seemed particularly worthwhile. Once he was gone, I truly don't think there was anything worthwhile about the run. As a kid, it took me only one more issue than it took you to realize I wasn't excited to read these anymore. I had spent insane money for an adolescent to acquire a full run up to this point and was telling anyone that would listen how Harbinger was my favorite comic ever, and yet I looked at that crappy cover for #17 and realized there was nothing I was looking forward to experiencing within either. still stuck around through, I think, #27. The Ivar brother first appeared in Eternal Warrior # 8 , which was a flip book that was also Archer and Armstrong #8. It was during the French Revolution and drawn by BWS. The magic for Harbinger was still there for me when I read 1-8 for the podcast. I remember thinking that the showdown between Harada and Sting was a good jumping off point for me, back in the day. It makes me wonder why Valiant couldn't get better artists after they became a money maker. They continued with knob row people old veterans. Maybe it's because they wanted to make as much money as possible for the selling of the company. The artist for Harbinger #16 was Howard Simpson, I thought it too be a big drop-off in quality.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 10:07:55 GMT -5
It makes me wonder why Valiant couldn't get better artists after they became a money maker. They continued with knob row people old veterans. Maybe it's because they wanted to make as much money as possible for the selling of the company. Artists were the most expensive resource for a 1990s comic book company to acquire. They did at least pick up some veteran writers and editors after the sale to Acclaim. Off hand, I'm aware of Fabien Nicieza, Keith Giffen, Christopher Priest, and Tom Peyer.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 25, 2024 10:10:27 GMT -5
It makes me wonder why Valiant couldn't get better artists after they became a money maker. They continued with knob row people old veterans. Maybe it's because they wanted to make as much money as possible for the selling of the company. Artists were the most expensive resource for a 1990s comic book company to acquire. They did at least pick up some veteran writers and editors after the sale to Acclaim. Off hand, I'm aware of Fabien Nicieza, Keith Giffen, Christopher Priest, and Tom Peyer. They had a period called Birthquake that I really enjoyed. Dan Jurgen's, Bart Sears, Norm Bryfogle were brought in to juice up the line. I still have the Solar books by Jurgens.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 10:14:39 GMT -5
Artists were the most expensive resource for a 1990s comic book company to acquire. They did at least pick up some veteran writers and editors after the sale to Acclaim. Off hand, I'm aware of Fabien Nicieza, Keith Giffen, Christopher Priest, and Tom Peyer. They had a period called Birthquake that I really enjoyed. Dan Jurgen's, Bart Sears, Norm Bryfogle were brought in to juice up the line. I still have the Solar books by Jurgens. What book was Breyfogle on??
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 25, 2024 10:21:15 GMT -5
They had a period called Birthquake that I really enjoyed. Dan Jurgen's, Bart Sears, Norm Bryfogle were brought in to juice up the line. I still have the Solar books by Jurgens. What book was Breyfogle on?? Bloodshot.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 25, 2024 10:23:16 GMT -5
What book was Breyfogle on?? Bloodshot. Damn, even I'd buy Bloodshot for Breyfogle art.
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