shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 21, 2024 10:59:20 GMT -5
 We can't seem to get off the topic of Jim Shooter, so here's the final chapter in his story, along with patented Tinfoil Hat Theories about the rise and fall of one the most exceptional superhero universes to ever make the scene and then rapidly descend to the level of dollar bin fodder. Along for the ride is special guest Batflunkie! Listen on Podbeanor on Youtube(as always, an extra special THANKS to our patreon supporters: Slam_Bradley , zaku , MDG , MWGallaher , thwhtguardian, and our newest member, berkley!) patreon.com/TheClassicComicsForum |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 21, 2024 11:10:58 GMT -5
Was a pleasure fellas, hope we can do another in the future
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 21, 2024 11:15:03 GMT -5
Was a pleasure fellas, hope we can do another in the future Seeing as how you apparently know some hitmen, we wouldn't want to disappoint you! |
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Post by commond on Jan 21, 2024 16:59:16 GMT -5
Nice legs, George.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 21, 2024 17:30:50 GMT -5
Loved the show, and I wouldn't mind a part 2!
I found myself in complete agreement with almost everything you fellows said. The origin of Aram and Gilad in Eternal Warrior #1 was indeed epic, and I fully agree that they heyday of Valiant was all about world building rather than actual plots (which is why my personal favourite is Rai #0).
One thing George said deserves to be said again: the line did coast on Shooter's initial push for a good year (and a little more) after he was thrown out. In that time we were treated to a lot of good storylines that the man himself might not have approved, but that were still done, somehow, "the Shooter way", with tight continuity and with respect to the shared universe. I'm thinking of the Malev war especially, which I enjoyed a lot.
The concept of the Valiant line as "the New Universe done right"also strikes me as spot-on. And yes, it only worked because there was a unified vision behind it, and a strong editorial hand at the tiller. Two years after Shooter's departure, we started feeling bumps on the road as some books were "Imagized", so to speak, and core concepts were abandoned (such as the idea that the timeline cannot be altered). Valiant had been successful at being its own thing, despite the often pretty mundane artwork, and it fell short when it tried to be a new Image or Marvel.
Could the line have lasted for decades? I don't know, but I really enjoyed it as one big story; a history of the near future, so to speak, seen from different angles.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 21, 2024 20:32:34 GMT -5
The concept of the Valiant line as "the New Universe done right"also strikes me as spot-on. And yes, it only worked because there was a unified vision behind it, and a strong editorial hand at the tiller. Two years after Shooter's departure, we started feeling bumps on the road as some books were "Imagized", so to speak, and core concepts were abandoned (such as the idea that the timeline cannot be altered). Valiant had been successful at being its own thing, despite the often pretty mundane artwork, and it fell short when it tried to be a new Image or Marvel. Could the line have lasted for decades? I don't know, but I really enjoyed it as one big story; a history of the near future, so to speak, seen from different angles.
Thanks for the kind words! I remember reading Rai #0 for the first time and wondering how the hell Valiant was going to last more than five more years with its future so firmly cemented. They were going to have to screw with the timeline eventually. I also strongly suspect Rai #0 was built from Shooter's notes and wasn't actually a Shooter idea, in and of itself. I just can't imagine he'd be that foolhardy to show his entire hand all at once (awesome as it was). I adore the Malev War. Probably the only thing I love even more about Valiant is the Terran Consortium Era that followed it. But it felt like a total rejection of Shooter's Magnus to me; not an extension of it. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 21, 2024 20:33:41 GMT -5
I'm just impressed that he shaved for the photo. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 21, 2024 21:34:40 GMT -5
I'm just impressed that he shaved for the photo. You never know who’s watching. |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 22, 2024 10:19:28 GMT -5
I remember reading Rai #0 for the first time and wondering how the hell Valiant was going to last more than five more years with its future so firmly cemented. They were going to have to screw with the timeline eventually. I also strongly suspect Rai #0 was built from Shooter's notes and wasn't actually a Shooter idea, in and of itself. I just can't imagine he'd be that foolhardy to show his entire hand all at once (awesome as it was). I agree, but I'm glad Valiant went for broke! There was a great risk in showing all those key events in advance if the company didn't intend to (yuck!) alter the timeline, but it could also have been a boon in that it should have prevented future writers from doing something stupid (*cough* sinspast *cough*) at some point. Revealing part of the future also didn't necessarily mean that creativity would be stifled; the Conan books, for example, never suffered from our knowing in advance what would eventually happen to the Cimmerian. On the other hand, under the hand of someone who respected the established "future history", Conan would never have become an Avenger anywhere else than in a What if..? book! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 22, 2024 10:27:53 GMT -5
Revealing part of the future also didn't necessarily mean that creativity would be stifled; the Conan books, for example, never suffered from our knowing in advance what would eventually happen to the Cimmerian. Excellent point. On the other hand, Conan was a solitary hero. It was understood that he wasn't going to keep any companions for long nor stay in one place for long. To do this for an entire comic book universe, though, ties a lot of hands. No major deaths, no major first appearances, no major shake-ups of the property to garner new interest (something Shooter practically invented and depended upon heavily at Marvel). If it had worked, it would have been AMAZING, but I doubt it would have worked. |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 22, 2024 10:43:15 GMT -5
Revealing part of the future also didn't necessarily mean that creativity would be stifled; the Conan books, for example, never suffered from our knowing in advance what would eventually happen to the Cimmerian. Excellent point. On the other hand, Conan was a solitary hero. It was understood that he wasn't going to keep any companions for long nor stay in one place for long. To do this for an entire comic book universe, though, ties a lot of hands. No major deaths, no major first appearances, no major shake-ups of the property to garner new interest (something Shooter practically invented and depended upon heavily at Marvel). If it had worked, it would have been AMAZING, but I doubt it would have worked. True; we even know that it didn't, since even before Valiant went belly up, writers had begun contradicting Rai #0 (much to my chagrin). Aric, for example, was still supposed to be the powerful CEO or Orb industries in the future, when he would be killed by Harada; but I believe that he lost everything in his own series when someone decided to kill all his supporting cast and destroy all that he owned. (I even think that his armour in the future was originally supposed to be his original one, since he called it "good skin", even if Shanara was destroyed in X-O Manowar). My guess is that Valiant could have officially negated Rai #0 by claiming that the Chaos Effect had altered the future, thus abandoning the tightly-controlled universe Shooter had created to embrace the anything goes nature and frequent retcons of Marvel and DC. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 22, 2024 11:36:07 GMT -5
Good show, again. Although I know a bit about Valiant - thanks in part to interviews with Shooter as well as posts on his now defunct blog - I've never read any of the various series. I would definitely like to read at least some of it, esp., yes, that first year or so of material produced under Shooter's guidance.
I have to say, though, that for some reason I'm even more interested in his follow-up venture, Defiant...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 23, 2024 12:56:47 GMT -5
I have to say, though, that for some reason I'm even more interested in his follow-up venture, Defiant... I'm always tempted to check out Defiant, but I read Defiant: Genesis waaaay back in the day and, while I loved the devotion to universe building, it all felt too specific and limiting to me. All I can really salvage from my adolescent memories of the issue is a sense of, "is this whole universe governed by slime?" Could be I just need to revisit it. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 24, 2024 7:20:06 GMT -5
Good show, again. Although I know a bit about Valiant - thanks in part to interviews with Shooter as well as posts on his now defunct blog - I've never read any of the various series. I would definitely like to read at least some of it, esp., yes, that first year or so of material produced under Shooter's guidance. I have to say, though, that for some reason I'm even more interested in his follow-up venture, Defiant... I must say that I'm a big Shooter fan and follow his work, but Defiant didn't do it for me. Maybe it was the very subpar artwork or maybe the main title " Plasm" was kind of disgusting. Even the coloring was weird. I really liked Broadway comics and I think I might have every comic from that company. |
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Post by shaxper on Jan 24, 2024 13:50:17 GMT -5
I was asked by theturok in another thread what my thoughts were on each Valiant title, and I thought it made sense to repeat my answers here. I'd be curious to see how my tastes line up with those of my fellow Valiant fanatics. Archer & Armstrong: Loved Armstrong as a solo character, but not the contrived odd-couple pairing. I much prefered when Aram and Gilad were paired together. Armorines: Never read it. Bloodshot: Not my cup of tea. I haven't gone back to read it in decades, so I could be missing something, but I found the Rai premise far less limited. He has all those powers and...shoots guns...at mob grunts? It just seemed so ordinary. Deathmate: Oh boy do we talk about this one in the Podcast episode. Doctor Mirage: I read the first issue and found it forgettable. I don't think I ever ventured beyond that. Eternal Warrior: Discussed this one quite a bit in the episode too. H.A.R.D. Corps: Didn't care for this one too much. Cool premise, but light on characterization. Harbinger: The pre-Unity issues were extraordinary, though I definitely enjoyed them better as an adolescent. In hindsight, I really think it's the later #0 issue that gives the entire early run its energy. Without that, Peter is not an endearing character at all. Magnus Robot Fighter: My favorite Valiant series of all, and it just kept getting better for most of its run. More on that here. Psi-Lords: Never read it, though I enjoyed when it intersected with the later Magnus Robot Fighter issues. Rai: I adored the original Rai when he first appeared in Magnus, both the characterization and concept. I was so ready to lose myself in the Japan of 4001 AD. But, after that initial story and Grandmother's departure, the series just became a massive bummer. And while I love how the later Rai and the Future Force expanded out Magnus' world, I couldn't stand that later Rai, himself. Far too much of a Mary Sue. Shadowman: Strong tone, characterization, and setting, but it just wasn't my thing. Solar: The Shooter issues are brilliant; possibly the character Shooter wrote the best. It's been years since I read the post-Shooter issues, but I enjoyed them well enough back in the day. Timewalker: Priceless. It's been far too long since I re-read it. Turok: As a fan of the original Turok, I feel Turok's setting was the title's most compelling asset. Removing Turok from that environment stripped the character of what I enjoyed about him. X-O Manowar: Adored the early issues. Once Arik acclemates to our world, though, he loses everything that made him special. Of all the rebooted Valiant titles, this is the one that I feel most clearly improved in later volumes. They managed to maintain Arik's barbarian personality even after he'd learned the language and ways of the modern era. |
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