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Post by Marv-El on Apr 3, 2024 16:48:19 GMT -5
A couple of late points: I can & will watch M*A*S*H up till Henry Blake's death. I never liked Potter, BJ was a poor sub for Trapper John while Winchester was the best replacement for Frank. However, for me, Henry made the show, his comedic reactions and facial expressions in regards to whatever the gang at the Swamp were doing was priceless. His death still hits me hard every time I watch the episode especially given how it happens. How much did I love WKRP? Go back and watch how Herb Tarlek answers the phone (analog device that it is). He slams his hand on the end of the receiver causing it to jump up into his hand. It was all one fluid motion and looked great. As a kid, I liked that move so much, I practiced and practiced to emulate it which I did...and can still do. Now as for comics, I've only read Stern's novelisation of the Death & Return of Superman. I'm in the process of getting the TPBs so I can finally read the comic. Same goes for Batman Knightfall, I've only read O'Neil's novelisation. I just bought the 3rd volume of the Knightfall TPBs so I can finally read the comic. But being from the 90s, how well does this look hold up today:  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 3, 2024 17:50:36 GMT -5
A couple of late points: I can & will watch M*A*S*H up till Henry Blake's death. I never liked Potter, BJ was a poor sub for Trapper John while Winchester was the best replacement for Frank. However, for me, Henry made the show, his comedic reactions and facial expressions in regards to whatever the gang at the Swamp were doing was priceless. His death still hits me hard every time I watch the episode especially given how it happens. How much did I love WKRP? Go back and watch how Herb Tarlek answers the phone (analog device that it is). He slams his hand on the end of the receiver causing it to jump up into his hand. It was all one fluid motion and looked great. As a kid, I liked that move so much, I practiced and practiced to emulate it which I did...and can still do. Now as for comics, I've only read Stern's novelisation of the Death & Return of Superman. I'm in the process of getting the TPBs so I can finally read the comic. Same goes for Batman Knightfall, I've only read O'Neil's novelisation. I just bought the 3rd volume of the Knightfall TPBs so I can finally read the comic. But being from the 90s, how well does this look hold up today: I didn't think it held up then. Too much of the plot requires Batman and others to act like morons. At least O'Neil fixed one of those plot errors in the novelization, in a scene where Tim Drake/Robin visits Commissioner Gordon and says something about Batman and Gordon asks if it is the real one. Robin reacts and says something to the effect of "You know?" and Gordon replies that he isn't stupid, which was a criticism of the comic story. Still requires Batman to through years of experience and tactical thinking out the window to try to round up a mass jailbreak, on his own. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 3, 2024 18:33:57 GMT -5
A couple of late points: I can & will watch M*A*S*H up till Henry Blake's death. I never liked Potter, BJ was a poor sub for Trapper John. Agree with each point. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 3, 2024 18:34:21 GMT -5
double post
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Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 4, 2024 10:46:56 GMT -5
I can & will watch M*A*S*H up till Henry Blake's death. I never liked Potter, BJ was a poor sub for Trapper John while Winchester was the best replacement for Frank. However, for me, Henry made the show, his comedic reactions and facial expressions in regards to whatever the gang at the Swamp were doing was priceless. His death still hits me hard every time I watch the episode especially given how it happens. I'm certain I'll be in a minority here ... but I thought every casting change the series made improved the show. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper John, and Winchester to Frank by a wide margin. I was also glad they got rid of Radar. |
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 4, 2024 10:58:11 GMT -5
As far as comics that don't hold up. I think even if we see the flaws we didn't see when we were young, we read them now within the historical context they were done in. I think it is rarer to re-read a book we liked or loved and say now it is complete trash. There can be some cringe worthy stuff, but I think we forgive that.
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 4, 2024 12:31:56 GMT -5
I can & will watch M*A*S*H up till Henry Blake's death. I never liked Potter, BJ was a poor sub for Trapper John while Winchester was the best replacement for Frank. However, for me, Henry made the show, his comedic reactions and facial expressions in regards to whatever the gang at the Swamp were doing was priceless. His death still hits me hard every time I watch the episode especially given how it happens. I'm certain I'll be in a minority here ... but I thought every casting change the series made improved the show. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper John, and Winchester to Frank by a wide margin. I was also glad they got rid of Radar. If you are in a minority, at least it's not a minority of one. I also preferred Potter, BJ, and Charles over Henry, Trapper, and Frank. I liked Radar, though, and was sorry to see him go, but at least his departure made it possible for Klinger to become more than a one-joke character.
Cei-U! I summon the 4077th!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2024 12:43:37 GMT -5
I'm certain I'll be in a minority here ... but I thought every casting change the series made improved the show. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper John, and Winchester to Frank by a wide margin. I was also glad they got rid of Radar. If you are in a minority, at least it's not a minority of one. I also preferred Potter, BJ, and Charles over Henry, Trapper, and Frank. I liked Radar, though, and was sorry to see him go, but at least his departure made it possible for Klinger to become more than a one-joke character.
Cei-U! I summon the 4077th!
Not a minority of two either, as I was mentioning earlier, Potter really changed the series for me. Henry was "one of the boys" and that was fine and all, but Potter was a real leader and often a father figure. And Charles just stole the show, repeatedly. |
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Post by Calidore on Apr 4, 2024 18:28:13 GMT -5
I can still enjoy watching MASH. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper, and Winchester to Burns. Really, for that last, doesn't everyone? Winchester was written as a three-dimensional frenemy character, and Burns never was.
I was sorry that Radar's radar was toned down later, since his schtick of startling Blake by appearing with a "Yes sir?" right before being called made me laugh Every Single Time. I also felt that his leaving and Klinger taking over the position diminished the latter, because while it did move him away from being a one-joke character, it was toward being a no-joke character. In effect, MASH lost two shticks and didn't replace them with anything.
WKRP was tremendous. Nothing to add to what's been said there.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 4, 2024 18:43:44 GMT -5
Looking at some other shows mentioned: I loved Sapphire & Steel enough to buy the DVD box set; still have never seen any Blake's 7; like Young Ones a great deal but can only handle it in small doses and only until Alexei Sayle shows up; liked the creators' earlier Taxi much better than Cheers due to having much more likeable characters (same reason I much preferred Friends to Seinfeld). I also have Peter Gunn on the eternal to-watch list due to having been a huge fan of the soundtrack albums since first hearing my dad's copy of the second one (More Music from Peter Gunn) as a kid and pretty much wearing it out.
Oh, comics that don't hold up? The first that comes to mind is Bloom County. I remembered loving it as a high schooler and was happy to buy the complete collection hardcovers (well discounted at Borders when they went under). Then I read them, and I think I laughed once over the whole five volumes, and smiled a few more times. Way too much Sledgehammer of Satire and shouting for adult me. Rereading Howard the Duck a few years ago had pretty much the same effect.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 4, 2024 18:50:21 GMT -5
I can still enjoy watching MASH. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper, and Winchester to Burns. Really, for that last, doesn't everyone? Winchester was written as a three-dimensional frenemy character, and Burns never was. No. Oh, comics that don't hold up? The first that comes to mind is Bloom County. I remembered loving it as a high schooler and was happy to buy the complete collection hardcovers (well discounted at Borders when they went under). Then I read them, and I think I laughed once over the whole five volumes, and smiled a few more times. Way too much Sledgehammer of Satire and shouting for adult me. Rereading Howard the Duck a few years ago had pretty much the same effect. It would be really hard to disagree with you more. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 4, 2024 19:45:31 GMT -5
Superfolks by Robert Mayer was a groundbreaking if flawed novel when it came out in 1977 ... now, so many better writers have learned from its use of tropes, that all that's left to it are dated references, bad prose, and unfunny attempts at humor.
I didn't read this until the early 2000s, at which point I had already heard about its influence on Moore's Miracle/Marvelman, etc, so I had some idea of what to expect. I still enjoyed it but yeah, it would have been fun to read it in the late 1970s or early 80s without knowing anything about it beforehand. |
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Post by Calidore on Apr 4, 2024 20:26:03 GMT -5
I can still enjoy watching MASH. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper, and Winchester to Burns. Really, for that last, doesn't everyone? Winchester was written as a three-dimensional frenemy character, and Burns never was. No. Oh, comics that don't hold up? The first that comes to mind is Bloom County. I remembered loving it as a high schooler and was happy to buy the complete collection hardcovers (well discounted at Borders when they went under). Then I read them, and I think I laughed once over the whole five volumes, and smiled a few more times. Way too much Sledgehammer of Satire and shouting for adult me. Rereading Howard the Duck a few years ago had pretty much the same effect. It would be really hard to disagree with you more. I think few things are more subjective than humor.  |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 4, 2024 20:31:11 GMT -5
No. It would be really hard to disagree with you more. I think few things are more subjective than humor. I generally dislike the “all art is subjective” argument, but I tend to agree with this statement. I was actually watching an exchange between, Roger Ebert, Gene Siskel, Johnny Carson and Chevy Chase to that effect earlier today. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 4, 2024 21:36:51 GMT -5
I liked all of the characters on MASH, for different reasons. Frank was great as a whiny, by the book, pain in the ass, to represent mindless authority, which perpetuated the inventive gags, as Hawkeye and Trapper put one over on him. However, it ran its course by the third season. They really needed to do what the did with Margaret and humanize him a bit, to give him depth. Let him have a watershed event that changes his perspective on things. He can still be a bit of a crooked schlmeal, but, you could move him more towards the Winchester level of bad trait to good trait. The biggest problem was his surgical skill, but sheer repetition could be an improvement factor on that. Still, Burns was never allowed to change, even as Margaret married and only got a couple of real "human" moments in the series, like when he says gooddye, as Margaret leaves on her honeymoon, after her wedding.
Trapper was good as a sidekick to Hawkeye, but he was kind of left with little to do but react to Hawkeye, which bored Wayne Rogers. I kind of felt he was an afterthought, in his final season and even a bit before that.
BJ made for an interesting perspective on things, as a new guy and one who isn't quite as debauched as Hawkeye. Plus, his decency made for some good righteous moments. That said, Mike Farrell, as an actor, never really bowled me over. He was better as a cohort to Hawkeye, than some of his solo moments; but, there are a few in there that I really liked. BJ was okay.
Henry Blake was fine as a character, but there was nowhere to go with him, as a leader. He was shown to be too much of a pushover for Hawkeye and Trapper, and too intimidated by Frank & Margaret. McLean Stevenson was hilarious; but, they needed a leader type and Henry's schtick had gone as far as it could, without forcing him to take command.
Potter was great. He was a real father figure and Henry Morgan was such a great character actor. He could play him straight and he could play him goofy. Loved any time they had Potter drunk.. Previously, he was a deadpan riot as the mad general who comes to inspect the 4077th, the season before he came on board, as Col Potter. Potter was the kind of leader that you needed to keep a balance between the comedy and the drama and serve both equally. Stevenson could do the drama, but he was better at comedy. Morgan was more well rounded. Potter represented authority with experience and heart and I knew a few senior officers like him. Men will walk through fire for a leader like Col Potter.
Winchester made a better adversary for Hawkeye, and even an occasional ally. Winchester was complex, which made him interesting. It took a while to develop; but, I think they learned their lesson, after losing Larry Linville.
Margaret was a delight to see grow and evolve, after the first few seasons. Seeing her grow beyond Frank gave her new traits and late, after deciding to divorce Donald and realizing that love was better than status, she became more of a whole person. It was interesting to see her talk about her ideal man and still include some of Frank, to suggest she saw things that the others never took the time to find. When she breaks down in front of her nurses, because she is an outsider, your heart goes out to her, even though you know she has placed herself in that situation. She finally realizes it and reaches out to them.
Part of it though is how the show's story balance evolved from almost complete comedy, to a mix, and then see the proportions of comedy to drama change, until it was mostly drama, by the end. That factored a lot into character evolution. Since the more dramatic elements really didn't start taking over the majority until later, someone like Larry Linville never really got a story that let him play that, while others, like Klinger, did.
My biggest issue with the series, as a whole (aside from being nearly 3 times the length of the actual war) was the crutch of Hawkeye's breakdowns. Alan Alda seemed enamored of the psychological stories, for their dramatic impact and seemed to always be directing when Sidney Friedman was brought to the camp, and a good portion of those were Hawkeye having mental issues (sleepwalking, sneezing, etc), until the final episode and his complete breakdown. It got pretty old by the third time they did it, which was even before the finale.
I grew up with the show, having seen it since the third season on (thanks to reception issues, for our CBS affiliate blocking us from seeing the first two seasons, until reruns) and watched it nightly, in college, in syndication and later. I bought the DVDs. It never grows old, to me. I did try the DVDs without the laugh track and it just felt weird, to me.
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