|
Post by berkley on Apr 4, 2024 22:00:48 GMT -5
I have only vague recollections of Charles, so I suspect I was watching the show less regularly by the time after he came on board. Potter and BJ I seem to recall more clearly. My MASH memories are very much those of the kid I was at the time, so it's possible I didn't appreciate some of the nuances, including what some of these new characters brought to the show. I liked Frank because he was funny - perhaps whenever I get around to watching it again I'll see things differently.
I must have liked Wayne Rogers, though, because I remember being glad when I saw he had a new show, City of Angels, in which he played a private detective in (looking it up) 1930s LA - it was really good too, but didn't last long, unfortunately. After that I lost track of him, whether we didn't get his later shows on our channels, or what, I don't remember.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2024 23:51:32 GMT -5
One of these days I will sit down and watch MASH. I would suspect there is a chance I have watched every episode already (perhaps even more than once) but I can’t be sure. When my parents divorced, my mom and I moved in with my grandparents and dinner involved watching the evening news at 6 and an episode of MASH at 6:30.
|
|
|
Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 5, 2024 11:10:12 GMT -5
I'm certain I'll be in a minority here ... but I thought every casting change the series made improved the show. I preferred Potter to Blake, BJ to Trapper John, and Winchester to Frank by a wide margin. I was also glad they got rid of Radar. If you are in a minority, at least it's not a minority of one. I also preferred Potter, BJ, and Charles over Henry, Trapper, and Frank. I liked Radar, though, and was sorry to see him go, but at least his departure made it possible for Klinger to become more than a one-joke character. One reason for the above was that Blake and Trapper John, as Cody says, were really just extensions of Hawkeye. Potter and BJ were more distinct characters. Likewise, Winchester was a worthy opponent, which Frank never was. In terms of Radar, I did like him, but I have a pet peeve about 'eternal ingenue' characters, and if they weren't going to move him out of that role, he needed to move on. I also was fine with Klinger in a dress, but after a while the joke got old, and it was a relief to see him doing something else.
|
|
|
Post by jason on Apr 5, 2024 13:57:04 GMT -5
Oh, comics that don't hold up? The first that comes to mind is Bloom County. I remembered loving it as a high schooler and was happy to buy the complete collection hardcovers (well discounted at Borders when they went under). Then I read them, and I think I laughed once over the whole five volumes, and smiled a few more times. Way too much Sledgehammer of Satire and shouting for adult me. Rereading Howard the Duck a few years ago had pretty much the same effect. It would be really hard to disagree with you more. Definitely, Bloom County was my favorite comic strip as a kid (tied with Calvin and Hobbes), and I find that a lot of it still holds up to this day (was rereading one of the old collections and laughed at most of the punchlines), even if a lot of it is tied to the 80s. Really, my only problem was that they'd drop characters with no explanation (ie, Milo's Grandfather, Bobbi Harlow, Yaz Pistachio, Limekiller, etc).
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Apr 5, 2024 21:42:23 GMT -5
It would be really hard to disagree with you more. Definitely, Bloom County was my favorite comic strip as a kid (tied with Calvin and Hobbes), and I find that a lot of it still holds up to this day (was rereading one of the old collections and laughed at most of the punchlines), even if a lot of it is tied to the 80s. Really, my only problem was that they'd drop characters with no explanation (ie, Milo's Grandfather, Bobbi Harlow, Yaz Pistachio, Limekiller, etc). Some of it does suffer, without context, looking at one of the volumes, in the store. i had the whole run, in the old comic strip collections. Several characters did go missing, though you can kind of understand why, after a while, as better characters came along. Milo's grandfather is gone pretty early on, especially after Bill the Cat, Binkley and Oliver Wendell Jones are more established. The grandfather allowed for some jokes about generations and reactionary types; but, the others had a richer playground, from satire to fantasy. Bloom County was a big favorite, through high school and college. I used to have a Billy and the Boingers concert t-shirt, which had the tour, with every city marked "canceled," except Alburquerque, which is the only city they go to, in the strip.
|
|
|
Post by Calidore on Apr 5, 2024 21:55:38 GMT -5
I think few things are more subjective than humor. I generally dislike the “all art is subjective” argument, but I tend to agree with this statement. I was actually watching an exchange between, Roger Ebert, Gene Siskel, Johnny Carson and Chevy Chase to that effect earlier today. That's quite the group. Is that on YouTube?
|
|
|
Post by Calidore on Apr 5, 2024 22:02:24 GMT -5
I liked all of the characters on MASH, for different reasons. Frank was great as a whiny, by the book, pain in the ass, to represent mindless authority, which perpetuated the inventive gags, as Hawkeye and Trapper put one over on him. However, it ran its course by the third season. They really needed to do what the did with Margaret and humanize him a bit, to give him depth. Let him have a watershed event that changes his perspective on things. He can still be a bit of a crooked schlmeal, but, you could move him more towards the Winchester level of bad trait to good trait. The biggest problem was his surgical skill, but sheer repetition could be an improvement factor on that. Still, Burns was never allowed to change, even as Margaret married and only got a couple of real "human" moments in the series, like when he says gooddye, as Margaret leaves on her honeymoon, after her wedding. Trapper was good as a sidekick to Hawkeye, but he was kind of left with little to do but react to Hawkeye, which bored Wayne Rogers. I kind of felt he was an afterthought, in his final season and even a bit before that. BJ made for an interesting perspective on things, as a new guy and one who isn't quite as debauched as Hawkeye. Plus, his decency made for some good righteous moments. That said, Mike Farrell, as an actor, never really bowled me over. He was better as a cohort to Hawkeye, than some of his solo moments; but, there are a few in there that I really liked. BJ was okay. Henry Blake was fine as a character, but there was nowhere to go with him, as a leader. He was shown to be too much of a pushover for Hawkeye and Trapper, and too intimidated by Frank & Margaret. McLean Stevenson was hilarious; but, they needed a leader type and Henry's schtick had gone as far as it could, without forcing him to take command. Potter was great. He was a real father figure and Henry Morgan was such a great character actor. He could play him straight and he could play him goofy. Loved any time they had Potter drunk.. Previously, he was a deadpan riot as the mad general who comes to inspect the 4077th, the season before he came on board, as Col Potter. Potter was the kind of leader that you needed to keep a balance between the comedy and the drama and serve both equally. Stevenson could do the drama, but he was better at comedy. Morgan was more well rounded. Potter represented authority with experience and heart and I knew a few senior officers like him. Men will walk through fire for a leader like Col Potter. Winchester made a better adversary for Hawkeye, and even an occasional ally. Winchester was complex, which made him interesting. It took a while to develop; but, I think they learned their lesson, after losing Larry Linville. Margaret was a delight to see grow and evolve, after the first few seasons. Seeing her grow beyond Frank gave her new traits and late, after deciding to divorce Donald and realizing that love was better than status, she became more of a whole person. It was interesting to see her talk about her ideal man and still include some of Frank, to suggest she saw things that the others never took the time to find. When she breaks down in front of her nurses, because she is an outsider, your heart goes out to her, even though you know she has placed herself in that situation. She finally realizes it and reaches out to them. Part of it though is how the show's story balance evolved from almost complete comedy, to a mix, and then see the proportions of comedy to drama change, until it was mostly drama, by the end. That factored a lot into character evolution. Since the more dramatic elements really didn't start taking over the majority until later, someone like Larry Linville never really got a story that let him play that, while others, like Klinger, did. I think the willingness to evolve the show and characters was a big part of the longevity. Frank, Trapper, and Blake were all pretty much one-note, while their replacements had much more depth. I guess in Margaret they (correctly) saw the potential for depth, and so left her in. Another factor in both Margaret staying on and the others all working out so well may have been that great intangible called chemistry, which the actors and their characters all had.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 5, 2024 23:14:19 GMT -5
I generally dislike the “all art is subjective” argument, but I tend to agree with this statement. I was actually watching an exchange between, Roger Ebert, Gene Siskel, Johnny Carson and Chevy Chase to that effect earlier today. That's quite the group. Is that on YouTube? It is. All three were on the Tonight Show. It was when The Three Amigos opened, which Siskel and Ebert trashed. Next time I’m on my computer, as opposed to my phone, I’ll see if I can track it down again.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Apr 5, 2024 23:58:52 GMT -5
That's quite the group. Is that on YouTube? It is. All three were on the Tonight Show. It was when The Three Amigos opened, which Siskel and Ebert trashed. Next time I’m on my computer, as opposed to my phone, I’ll see if I can track it down again.
I like Martin Short and Steve Martin a lot, though with each guy there have been things I haven't liked much or haven't felt compelled to seek out. On Chevy Chase as a actor/comedian I would say I'm neutral or maybe slightly negative - there are times I've found him mildly amusing but never much more than that and there are times he can be annoying. That's clearly a subjective reaction since he's been very successful in his career so there must be quite a lot of viewers who get more from his performances than I do. Yet I gather there's a substantial minority who don't like Chase at all. I've never felt the slightest impulse to watch something just because he was in it, but at the same time I've never felt like avoiding something because of his presence either, so maybe I can claim neutral status in this case after all.
But on the general question of subjectivity in artistic or judgments, I think one thing we should always remind ourselves of is how the critical consensus evolves over time - and often over a very long time, centuries. As far as I can tell, even Shakespeare was subject to this for over a century after his death, or such is the impression I've retained from general 17th and early 18th-C reading. I try to keep that in mind when I'm looking at anything.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 6, 2024 3:20:01 GMT -5
That's quite the group. Is that on YouTube? It is. All three were on the Tonight Show. It was when The Three Amigos opened, which Siskel and Ebert trashed. Next time I’m on my computer, as opposed to my phone, I’ll see if I can track it down again. I happened to catch that episode when it first aired. It was really awkward - and kind of funny, honestly - Ebert was particularly harsh, and Chase started making faces in the background. I mostly agreed with Ebert, but the ironic thing for me is that the only two scenes in that movie I found mildly funny were centered around Chase's character.
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Apr 6, 2024 7:07:40 GMT -5
You know What didn’t hold up? A good chunk of the Superhero comics of the 90s, both in terms of art and content. I swear, there isn't a decade in this genre, either before or since, that I consider quite as unreadable as this one. I think that readers at that time were gripped by a fit of collective madness, because I can't find any other plausible explanation. And these were the typical superheroines of the 90s And comic book readers even complained when they were stereotypically portrayed as sexually repressed nerds!
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Apr 6, 2024 7:16:06 GMT -5
You know What didn’t hold up? A good chunk of the Superhero comics of the 90s, both in terms of art and content. I swear, there isn't a decade in this genre, either before or since, that I consider quite as unreadable as this one. I think that readers at that time were gripped by a fit of collective madness, because I can't find any other plausible explanation. If you are just talking superheroes, then I would tend to agree, with certain caveats. Anything from James Robinson was gold, in that period, Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek did some good stuff, and there are some really good one-shots and mini-series. beyond mainstream superheroes, though, there is a ton of fantastic material, in all kinds of genres.
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Apr 6, 2024 7:19:22 GMT -5
You know What didn’t hold up? A good chunk of the Superhero comics of the 90s, both in terms of art and content. I swear, there isn't a decade in this genre, either before or since, that I consider quite as unreadable as this one. I think that readers at that time were gripped by a fit of collective madness, because I can't find any other plausible explanation. If you are just talking superheroes, then I would tend to agree, with certain caveats. Anything from James Robinson was gold, in that period, Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek did some good stuff, and there are some really good one-shots and mini-series. beyond mainstream superheroes, though, there is a ton of fantastic material, in all kinds of genres. Yep, absolutely, superhero comics. Let's everything that can be stereotypically defined as "90s Image style", both in terms of art and contents.
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Apr 6, 2024 9:40:57 GMT -5
And comic book readers even complained when they were stereotypically portrayed as sexually repressed nerds! Yeah, but bondage "good girl art" from say the 40's somehow becomes respectable Pretty sure Phantom Lady was "creatively inspired" similarly. Were, at least they were a little more anatomically correct!!!
|
|
|
Post by zaku on Apr 6, 2024 11:32:08 GMT -5
Translation: if you’re going to be sexist, “do it right”! Well, it was the 40s. Seeing the same thing in the 90s, and done wrong, it was a little jarring.
|
|