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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 5, 2024 6:48:44 GMT -5
I think different writers have done different things for sure. At it's core, it's a space opera(really Lucas wrote a western in space but it expanded out enough to be space opera).. but some other stuff drifts in now and then.
Also, I generally HATE Kevin Anderson... but honestly I haven't read a thing he's wrote since he was first on the EU, so maybe its not as bad as I remember...we'll see.
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Post by swansong on Jul 5, 2024 6:55:00 GMT -5
Kevin J Anderson is certainly not a great writer, but his comics were enjoyable. But overall, quality aside, he and Tom Veitch seem to catch that OT feel quite well. Wizards, big super weapons, adventure. Zahn e.g. reduced the force, made everything almost "realistic"... he really came from "military" scifi and brought this to Star Wars. In the PT Lucas took away the magic of the force again. I just think that by the late 90s Star Wars had lost a lot of the old "magic" itself. Isnt it like Veitch countered those arguments that bringing back the Emperor is lame and diminishes his deafeat and Vader's sacrifice by saying that this is just how it is in old space opera and thats what Star Wars sis... the bad guy always returns! Superhero comic fans can relate  I think he has a point here. But others want a more "realistic" universe. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 5, 2024 6:57:21 GMT -5
yeah, that's true... Zahn definitely went more for military sci fi.. but that made sense with his story. And I'm not sure clones and magic lizards that can eat the force are 'realistic'
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Post by swansong on Jul 5, 2024 7:01:05 GMT -5
yeah, that's true... Zahn definitely went more for military sci fi.. but that made sense with his story. And I'm not sure clones and magic lizards that can eat the force are 'realistic' Zahn’s strategic use of the ysalamiri was a storytelling tool to mitigate the Force's impact (by itself rather dumb, as the force is life in Star Wars, you cannot "block" it, okay, they probably block the "user's access", still its a lame cop-out), allowing him to explore the dynamics of military sci-fi in greater depth. While Veitch has the Emperor destroying whole stardestroyers on his own, lol. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 5, 2024 7:46:50 GMT -5
I never really looked at it that way, but it makes sense... but from the story standpoint and the real life reason.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 5, 2024 8:48:54 GMT -5
I think different writers have done different things for sure. At its core, it's a space opera(really Lucas wrote a western in space but it expanded out enough to be space opera).. but some other stuff drifts in now and then. I agree with this -- especially the elements of a Western that often get forgotten. But it was "Space Fantasy" that was the phrase that Lucas used a lot in early Star Wars literature and promo material back in the late 70s (Marvel referred to SW as "the greatest space fantasy of them all" in the splash pages of its comic). Even the official 1977 promo poster for Star Wars by Tom Jung, featuring a very muscular Luke Skywalker and a very "damsel-in-distress" Princess Leia, makes the film look like barbarian fantasy in space. To me, "space fantasy" is still a pretty good fit for what Star Wars is. Also, I generally HATE Kevin Anderson... but honestly I haven't read a thing he's wrote since he was first on the EU, so maybe its not as bad as I remember...we'll see. I'm glad you said that. I've always found Kevin J. Anderson to be a very poor author too. I'm really not a fan of his at all. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2024 11:29:15 GMT -5
Anderson is a hack, pure and simple. His entire career has been mediocre work-for-hire writing, on other people's series (Star Wars, Dune, Superman, etc...) There are good work-for-hire authors who take what came before and add some new touches, interesting new characters, or what have you and then there are guys like Anderson, who churn out either rehashes of old plots or just dumbed down material and thinly sketched characters.
Man, I hated shelving his books, at B&N, while better authors got little space.
By the way, for military sci-fi Star Wars, you have the Mike Stackpole Rogue Squadron series. Stackpole wrote a ton of military history and reference material, before those books.
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 5, 2024 19:14:52 GMT -5
KJA is a hack, no bones about it. I read most of the Bantam-era EU novels and short story collections, so I should know. Though I do think his writing for comics is better than his prose. And he must've been more invested than usual when writing TOTJ: Redemption, because it is a truly moving story, even though it runs counter to Veitch's plans for Ulic.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 8, 2024 22:49:34 GMT -5
Tales of the Jedi #2  Cover dated : November 1993 Issue title : Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Anderon, Part II Script: Tom Veitch Pencils: Chris Gossett Inks: Mike Barriero Colors: Pamela Rambo Letters: Willie Schubert Cover art Dave Dorman Overall rating: 4 of 10 Plot Summary : After getting shot at last issue, the Jedi trio manage a reasonable crash landing. While Cay fixes the ship, Tott finds a bunch of Boma beasts outside (they are less cool looking on the inside than the one on the cover). Tott's special Jedi power is he can talk to animals, so he makes friends and he and Ulic are off, since their new friends now exactly where the kidnapped Princess is. They are far less cool looking on the inside.  They burst into the wedding and... she doesn't want to be saved. The Jedi join the wedding feast and the Beast lords tell the story that a Jedi named Freedon Nadd brought the dark side to Iziz and the city tosses out anyone who disagrees. Ulic, being a young, naive lad, wants everyone to go back to the city and make peace, but he (sort of) promises to help destroy the city if they fail. It goes... exactly like one would expect. Things look grim (including Cay losing an arm) when Master Arca turns up and meditates the good guys to victory, then dissipates the dark side energy from the Queen and around Freedon Nadd's tomb. He warns his young charges that there may still be trouble though, and they are to stay on the now-unified planet for a while. Oh, and just a bit of foreshadowing. [  My Thoughts : That is one awesome cover! Sadly, the rest of the story doesn't really live up to it. The plot is one Deus ex Machina after the other, from Tott being able to talk to the beasts to Master Arca just swooping in and thinking about victory. And then he scolds his pupils for not doing the same? If Jedi can do that why is there ever war? Can't they just think about peace instead? The plot stinks almost of silver age Superman levels of silliness. I think the fact they Veitch tells you ahead of time Ulic is going to fall definitely is a detriment to the story.. knowing that, the rest of the plot is pretty predictable. And what the heck is up with Master Arca's ship? It looks like he glued a Star Destroyer to some contruction equipment. Points for uniqueness for sure.  Continuity Notes : No letters or hints of what's to come or anything, just that next issue is the tale of Nomi Sunrider (which I feel like I remember liking more than these last two issues. We also have the first mention of Freedon Nadd, which of course is very important later. Otherwise though, not a lot going on here.. a bit of action, it closes the story for now, and that's that. Even the droid type that Cay steals an arm from is never mentioned again.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 8, 2024 23:14:26 GMT -5
Also, I couldn't resist, I'm also re-reading Heir to the Empire....about 1/3 of the way through. Some relevant notes.
It almost contradicts the comics right away... Pellaeon mentions that the rebels took several Star Destroyers, not 2.... I guess you could assume they could only get 2 running, but seems a stretch.
At this point, it's mentioned the the New Republic and the Imperial remnants are about equal in available firepower, but its generally thought that the rebels have better personnel.
Watching Thrawn plan is so fun... all this random stuff then it all comes together. That's what the live action version was missing...we just had to assume that part.
I had in my head the twins were already born... but Leia's just getting over morning sickness in the book.. so that means the twins are quite small for Han and Leia to be galavanting about in Dark Empire.
Wedge is clearly just a squad leader (if the most trusted one) and not... whatever he was as wallpaper in Dark Empire.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2024 12:41:11 GMT -5
Not a terrible issue, by any means, but not a particularly great one either. It was definitely a step down from the first issue, I felt, though I agree that the front cover is very nice. Sadly, the rest of the story doesn't really live up to it. The plot is one Deus ex Machina after the other, from Tott being able to talk to the beasts to Master Arca just swooping in and thinking about victory. Yeah, the instances of Deus ex Machina are unfortunate. That just smacks of sub-standard, amateurish writing, in my opinion. In particular, having Master Arca appear to bail the three young Jedi out felt like a total cop-out to me. The writing was definitely the weak link in this issue. And then he scolds his pupils for not doing the same? If Jedi can do that why is there ever war? Can't they just think about peace instead? The plot stinks almost of silver age Superman levels of silliness. I must confess that hadn't occurred to me, but you're right – it makes no sense at all. I think the fact they Veitch tells you ahead of time Ulic is going to fall definitely is a detriment to the story.. knowing that, the rest of the plot is pretty predictable. I spotted the foreshadowing here when Master Arca told Ulic Qel-Droma to pray that he never falls to the Dark Side, but only because you let Ulic's ultimate destiny slip in an earlier post. I don't recall ever thinking it was a foregone conclusion that Ulic would become a Sith before. At most, I might have thought that Tom Veitch was subtly referencing a future plot development he had up his sleeve which might involve Ulic being tempted by the Dark Side, but not necessarily that he would fully succumb to it. Perhaps your prior knowledge of what happens is colouring your opinion of Veitch's foreshadowing here? And what the heck is up with Master Arca's ship? It looks like he glued a Star Destroyer to some contruction equipment. Points for uniqueness for sure. I think I said in my comments on issue #1 that I've always liked how Chris Gossett's design for the Jedi's ships was quite unorthodox. It's a nice touch to have the star-cruisers in TotJ look unlike the ones we're used to seeing in the original trilogy. It reinforces the idea that we are in a different era of Star Wars than the one we're used to. We also have the first mention of Freedon Nadd, which of course is very important later. Otherwise though, not a lot going on here.. a bit of action, it closes the story for now, and that's that. Even the droid type that Cay steals an arm from is never mentioned again. I thought it was interesting that, yet again in a Star Wars comic, we have an instance of ancient Jedi Knights wearing actual metal armour – something that we saw on a few occasions in the old Marvel series too. While we're on the subject of Freedon Nadd and the Dark Side of the Force, Veitch has Master Arca tell Ulic that with the Sith there can be only one (shades of Highlander perhaps?). Of course, the prequels established the rule of two (a master and a pupil), but even for somebody who was writing Star Wars comics before the prequels had come out, that's an odd mistake for Veitch to make: there were two Sith in the original trilogy, after all – Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Overall, I thought this issue was just kinda OK-ish. I'm still enjoying Gossett's '90s indie comic leanings in the artwork. However, I did want to mention that in the scene where the three young Jedi storm the Beast-Rider nuptials, Veitch describes the marriage of Princess Galia to Oron Kira as a "barbaric ceremony", but Gossett's art makes it look like a rather pleasant gathering. But artwork aside, the writing is what spoiled this issue for me. I said in my comments for issue #1 that I was never a terribly big fan of TotJ, but that I had enjoyed re-reading the first part of the story. This issue, however, sort of reminded me why I never took to the series. |
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 9, 2024 17:51:39 GMT -5
While we're on the subject of Freedon Nadd and the Dark Side of the Force, Veitch has Master Arca tell Ulic that with the Sith there can be only one (shades of Highlander perhaps?). Of course, the prequels established the rule of two (a master and a pupil), but even for somebody who was writing Star Wars comics before the prequels had come out, that's an odd mistake for Veitch to make: there were two Sith in the original trilogy, after all – Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Just to clarify, Veitch established that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at a time. There can be multiple Sith Lords, but only the top dog gets the "Dark Lord" title. Also, prior to TPM, it was never established that Palpatine was a Sith. The Sith aren't ever mentioned by name within the OT, and only Vader was identified as a Sith in supplementary material. Finally, it becomes clear in Empire's End that Veitch didn't consider Palpatine part of the Sith religion. |
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2024 20:28:46 GMT -5
While we're on the subject of Freedon Nadd and the Dark Side of the Force, Veitch has Master Arca tell Ulic that with the Sith there can be only one (shades of Highlander perhaps?). Of course, the prequels established the rule of two (a master and a pupil), but even for somebody who was writing Star Wars comics before the prequels had come out, that's an odd mistake for Veitch to make: there were two Sith in the original trilogy, after all – Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Just to clarify, Veitch established that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at a time. There can be multiple Sith Lords, but only the top dog gets the "Dark Lord" title. Ah, OK...I must've misunderstood what Master Arca was saying (more bad writing on Veitch's part ). Also, prior to TPM, it was never established that Palpatine was a Sith. The Sith aren't ever mentioned by name within the OT, and only Vader was identified as a Sith in supplementary material. You're correct about there being no mention of the Sith in the OT (although there is actually a deleted part of the "Imperial board meeting" scene on the Death Star from the original 1977 film in which General Tagge refers to Darth Vader as a "Sith Lord"). But the supplementary material you refer to that mentioned the Sith -- and Darth Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith" -- includes the 1976 Star Wars novelisation, the old Marvel comics, the original trilogy radio dramatizations, the Topps bubble-gum cards, the Kenner toy merchandise, the Bantha Tracks fanclub magazine, and the original trilogy poster magazines, amongst others. So, it's not like the word "Sith" or Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith was unknown in the 70s and 80s if you were any kind of SW fan worth their salt. As for the Emperor being a Sith, I'm not sure about it never being established back in the OT era. You might be right, I suppose, but my friends and I definitely viewed the Emperor ws a Sith back in the early '80s. I mean, he was clearly a Dark Side Force user in RotJ, so maybe we just assumed he must also a Sith? But I do wonder if it was perhaps mentioned some place like the RotJ novelization of the Marvel comics? I dunno, maybe you're right. Fun fact, the word "Ewok" isn't uttered in RotJ either. Finally, it becomes clear in Empire's End that Veitch didn't consider Palpatine part of the Sith religion. Sure. So, he got it wrong there as well.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 9, 2024 21:06:41 GMT -5
While we're on the subject of Freedon Nadd and the Dark Side of the Force, Veitch has Master Arca tell Ulic that with the Sith there can be only one (shades of Highlander perhaps?). Of course, the prequels established the rule of two (a master and a pupil), but even for somebody who was writing Star Wars comics before the prequels had come out, that's an odd mistake for Veitch to make: there were two Sith in the original trilogy, after all – Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Just to clarify, Veitch established that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at a time. There can be multiple Sith Lords, but only the top dog gets the "Dark Lord" title. Also, prior to TPM, it was never established that Palpatine was a Sith. The Sith aren't ever mentioned by name within the OT, and only Vader was identified as a Sith in supplementary material. Finally, it becomes clear in Empire's End that Veitch didn't consider Palpatine part of the Sith religion. That doesn't match up with Dark Empire though... where Palpatine is literally writing the doctrine of the Sith. (its in the text bits in the back matter). I don't disagree that the ships are unique (I do like the Nebulon Ranger, which the jedis' ship), but Arca's is just weird. It might be true that my view is colored a bit by knowing what happens, but its not just that I know because this is an old story.. Dark Empire (the series just before this) TELLS us. That tells me that Veitch wanted us to know. I should try to leave that aside as I'm reading though. Also, I'm almost certain that Vader is referred to on-screen as the Emperor's apprentice....perhaps even in Empire Strikes back? that certainly implies he's also a Sith. |
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Post by swansong on Jul 10, 2024 7:54:15 GMT -5
The first real use of the Sith is in deed this "Tales of the Jedi" series, I think. Until then, whatever a "Sith" is, does not seem to be clear (remember Zahn setting up the Noghri to be the Sith, hence the explanation of Vader's title - in the early 90s). Palpatine as a Sith is first cemented in TPM. Previously they used "Dark Jedi". In "Dark Empire" Palpatine calls himself "Master of All Jedi" and calls Luke "Dark Jedi". Also notice that Darth Vader is always refered to as THE Dark Lord of the Sith, not A.
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I think he has a point here. But others want a more "realistic" universe. 
