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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2024 11:24:00 GMT -5
The first real use of the Sith is in deed this "Tales of the Jedi" series, I think. Until then, whatever a "Sith" is, does not seem to be clear (remember Zahn setting up the Noghri to be the Sith, hence the explanation of Vader's title - in the early 90s). Palpatine as a Sith is first cemented in TPM. Previously they used "Dark Jedi". In "Dark Empire" Palpatine calls himself "Master of All Jedi" and calls Luke "Dark Jedi". Also notice that Darth Vader is always refered to as THE Dark Lord of the Sith, not A. The Star Wars novelization (written by Alan Dean Foster, but credited to George Lucas) introduces Vader in this manner...... "Two meters tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen- a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the Rebel ship." It was clear, at the beginning, that there were supposed to be multiple Sith Knights. In the early script draft, it was the Sith who attack Deak Starkiller's ship, capturing him. Prince Valorum is their leader, while General Dart Vader is an Imperial officer, who is a sadistic, cowardly figure, whose actions cause the more honorable Sith Lord to turn against the Empire, much like Vader's later face turn, in Jedi, when the Emperor tortures Luke with his lightning bolts. TIn that earlier draft, Vader is torturing a prisoner (Deak, I think) and Valorum enters and he stops, but he catches Vader administering more and turns on him. That was always the thing, with anything after Star Wars. The original is pretty much a complete movie; but it evolved, across multiple drafts, into the final story. Everything that came after was in reaction to the response it got and then Lucas and his co-writers took things from those earlier drafts to try to build scenes and stitch together a bigger story, which is why so much that followed contradicted things in Star Wars, as they went off in different directions and ran into story problems and changed characters and situations to solve the story problem, like merging Luke's father and Darth Vader, in the second draft of Empire (or Star Wars II, as it was titled on the first draft, and known within the company). Even the idea that Star Wars was the 4th episode in the series didn't come about until after that second draft of Empire. Gary Katz, in later interviews said they informally mapped out the idea for the sequels, once Empire came together, of the first trilogy being Luke's story, climaxing in defeating Vader. The Emperor was to loom in the background, to be the threat in the next trilogy. They would then go back and explore the back history, of Ben and Luke's father (and, originally, Vader, before they were merged). Then, the final trilogy would move the Emperor up front and introduce a sister of Luke's who would be key in defeating the Emperor. Leia was supposed to leave the story, to lead the survivors of Alderaan, towards their future, as a society (those, like her, who were off-world). Some of that morphed into figures like Mara Jade. |
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 10, 2024 16:57:16 GMT -5
As for the Emperor being a Sith, I'm not sure about it never being established back in the OT era. You might be right, I suppose, but my friends and I definitely viewed the Emperor ws a Sith back in the early '80s. I mean, he was clearly a Dark Side Force user in RotJ, so maybe we just assumed he must also a Sith? It's certainly not a huge leap to make. I can only guess there was an edict from Lucasfilm preventing EU creators from outright identifying Palpatine as a Sith for whatever reasons, so Veitch had to work around it. If Veitch is wrong, I don't wanna be right.  Within this scenario, I like to entertain the notion that Anakin joined the Sith specifically to gain the power to defeat Palpatine. But he overestimated his own abilities, confronted Palpatine half-cocked, had his ass handed to him, and was forced to join him or die, mirroring Luke's own journey in DE. I also like to think that there’s a major difference between Sith philosophy and Palpatine’s. They both worship the dark side of the Force, but the Sith adhere to certain traditions and codes of honour they consider sacred whilst Palps is purely a self-serving psychopath, putting them at odds and better contextualizing Vader's desire to usurp his throne. |
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 10, 2024 17:08:16 GMT -5
Just to clarify, Veitch established that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at a time. There can be multiple Sith Lords, but only the top dog gets the "Dark Lord" title. Also, prior to TPM, it was never established that Palpatine was a Sith. The Sith aren't ever mentioned by name within the OT, and only Vader was identified as a Sith in supplementary material. Finally, it becomes clear in Empire's End that Veitch didn't consider Palpatine part of the Sith religion. That doesn't match up with Dark Empire though... where Palpatine is literally writing the doctrine of the Sith. (its in the text bits in the back matter). It's been a while since I read the Dark Empire endnotes, so I just checked them out. Palpatine's only described as a magician, that most of his knowledge was gained from Jedi who turned to the dark side and the Jedi Holocron. The only dark side faction referenced by name's the Krath. There's nothing in there at all about the Sith. He calls Luke his apprentice in ROTJ, but he never describes Vader as such. All we know from the OT is that he turned Vader to the dark side. In the Veitch-verse, perhaps Palps and Vader had a relationship paralleling Snoke's and Kylo Ren's from the ST; after Palpatine seduced Anakin to the dark side, he appointed him leader of the Sith, who at this point were a small remnant and a shadow of their former selves. Or Anakin joined the Sith before joining Palpatine, but didn't fully embrace the dark side until after, at which point Palpatine "completed his training". |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 10, 2024 22:41:10 GMT -5
He's writing the books though... I don't have them right in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it says he's writing Sith Doctrine no? IT says he's finished the 'Book of Anger' and I mean really, this is all just splitting hairs, but I enjoy doing so  I definitely feel like the Emperor refers to Vader as his apprentice when he's mad at him and 'my old friend' when he's not. but I can't site anything specific, so maybe it's just the way it works in my head. Zahn is definitely made no mention of all of Sith, and is instead using 'Dark Jedi' (I'm about 1/2 way through). I don't recall before, nor do I get any impression now, that Zahn wanted the Noguri to be the Sith... I picture them as the stereotypical aliens from the old school days with big eyes and pointy heads. I do think the TotJ comics later meld the Sith into an evil verison of the republic with its own force users like the Jedi, but I don't recall exactly, but we'll get there! |
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Post by swansong on Jul 11, 2024 5:43:33 GMT -5
The first real use of the Sith is in deed this "Tales of the Jedi" series, I think. Until then, whatever a "Sith" is, does not seem to be clear (remember Zahn setting up the Noghri to be the Sith, hence the explanation of Vader's title - in the early 90s). Palpatine as a Sith is first cemented in TPM. Previously they used "Dark Jedi". In "Dark Empire" Palpatine calls himself "Master of All Jedi" and calls Luke "Dark Jedi". Also notice that Darth Vader is always refered to as THE Dark Lord of the Sith, not A. The Star Wars novelization (written by Alan Dean Foster, but credited to George Lucas) introduces Vader in this manner...... "Two meters tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen- a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the Rebel ship." Interesting. I thought it has always been "the" and not "a". But still my points stand - by 1990 Zahn did not know that Sith were a dark side cult, or something, and Palpatine was first revealed to be Sith in 1999. Yeah, it's weird to think that Darth Vader is a Sith and the apprentice of the Emperor, but still - the title could also have meant something different. The Emperor being his own thing, exploiting the Dark Side as he likes, is certainly an interesting take... very interesting... but i think for "ordinary people", the moment the prequels came out this would have been a little bit too difficult to understand. I think writers were taking the Star Wars Marvel comics, Splinter of the Mind eye, the Star Wars RPG books, the novelization and so on to make sense of it. George Lucas seems to change his mind all the time, anyway. I think he answered some question about the Sith, questions Veitch and Anderson asked him (with a questionaire?). But George Lucas being George Lucas, later he did something else. I mean, Star Wars is his baby so yes he can do whatever he wants, but then again, in the 90s writers and game developers were creating a new Star Wars hype he could later exploit with the special editions and the prequels... and make money... and then he just changed things he HIMSELF told the writers and disregarded the stuff. Overall, when you think about it, it gets even weirder with the prequels... suddenly every Sith is called Darth. And the rule of two. Then they make the KOTOR games and introduce the rule of two and the Darth title with Revan and Malak - who seem to be different Sith than, let's say Exar Kun - millenia before it had been said to be previously established in canon. And the Sith being a species once... I dunno.  |
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Post by swansong on Jul 11, 2024 6:03:40 GMT -5
Zahn is definitely made no mention of all of Sith, and is instead using 'Dark Jedi' (I'm about 1/2 way through). I don't recall before, nor do I get any impression now, that Zahn wanted the Noguri to be the Sith... I picture them as the stereotypical aliens from the old school days with big eyes and pointy heads. Because this was veto'ed by Lucas... or his assistants. Its hard to say as many EU writers seem to claim "George Lucas" did this and that... for years it was said the Lucas personally suggested that Veitch could bring back the Emperor (instead of having some imposter in a Darth Vader mask), but a few years ago it had been revealed that the story was a little bit different... and the suggestion came one from one of Lucas' assistants. Anyway, I think the idea was that the Noghri were liek Darth Vader's personal slave/servant species, and thus he was the Dark Lord of them. I dont think this had anything to do with the darkside or something. Its a little bit of a lame explanation of the Dark Lord of the Sith title... |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 11, 2024 6:20:52 GMT -5
The first real use of the Sith is in deed this "Tales of the Jedi" series, I think. Until then, whatever a "Sith" is, does not seem to be clear (remember Zahn setting up the Noghri to be the Sith, hence the explanation of Vader's title - in the early 90s). Palpatine as a Sith is first cemented in TPM. Previously they used "Dark Jedi". In "Dark Empire" Palpatine calls himself "Master of All Jedi" and calls Luke "Dark Jedi". Also notice that Darth Vader is always refered to as THE Dark Lord of the Sith, not A. Absolutely. Nobody had any idea what a Sith really was, other than some kind of Dark Side Force user, prior to --- well, the prequels, really. I mean, yeah...the TotJ series and the Star Wars Role-playing Game did some fleshing out, but there was always the vague idea that they didn't really count because they weren't the movies. A fair bit of what had been established about the Sith by Dark Horse and West End Games in the '90s was contradicted or ignored by George Lucas in the prequels anyway. |
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Post by swansong on Jul 11, 2024 6:36:38 GMT -5
The first real use of the Sith is in deed this "Tales of the Jedi" series, I think. Until then, whatever a "Sith" is, does not seem to be clear (remember Zahn setting up the Noghri to be the Sith, hence the explanation of Vader's title - in the early 90s). Palpatine as a Sith is first cemented in TPM. Previously they used "Dark Jedi". In "Dark Empire" Palpatine calls himself "Master of All Jedi" and calls Luke "Dark Jedi". Also notice that Darth Vader is always refered to as THE Dark Lord of the Sith, not A. Absolutely. Nobody had any idea what a Sith really was, other than some kind of Dark Side Force user, prior to --- well, the prequels, really. I mean, yeah...the TotJ series and the Star Wars Role-playing Game did some fleshing out, but there was always the vague idea that they didn't really count because they weren't the movies. A fair bit of what had been established about the Sith by Dark Horse and West End Games in the '90s was contradicted or ignored by George Lucas in the prequels anyway. What I find really funny is that, because of the wording "Dark Lord of the Sith," they made the Sith a species of which these individuals were the lords. They have to be lords of something, after all!! We have to take it literally. Talk about overthinking!  (Isnt there in the comic adaptation of A New Hope the scene were Vader screams something like "By the GODS OF THE SITH"). |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 11, 2024 6:41:30 GMT -5
Absolutely. Nobody had any idea what a Sith really was, other than some kind of Dark Side Force user, prior to --- well, the prequels, really. I mean, yeah...the TotJ series and the Star Wars Role-playing Game did some fleshing out, but there was always the vague idea that they didn't really count because they weren't the movies. A fair bit of what had been established about the Sith by Dark Horse and West End Games in the '90s was contradicted or ignored by George Lucas in the prequels anyway. What I find really funny is that, because of the wording "Dark Lord of the Sith," they made the Sith a species of which these individuals were the lords. They have to be lords of something, after all!! We have to take it literally. Talk about overthinking! Interesting. Back in the '80s, my nerdy friends and I all assumed that the Sith were some kind of extinct Dark Side religous order, I think. And that Darth Vader was the Dark Lord of that order...i.e. the head honcho. |
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Post by swansong on Jul 11, 2024 6:47:03 GMT -5
What I find really funny is that, because of the wording "Dark Lord of the Sith," they made the Sith a species of which these individuals were the lords. They have to be lords of something, after all!! We have to take it literally. Talk about overthinking! Interesting. Back in the '80s, my nerdy friends and I all assumed that the Sith were some kind of Dark Side religous order, I think. And that Darth Vader was the Dark Lord of that order...i.e. the head honcho. That would be an easy explanation. But regarding the Noghri being the Sith or introducing the Sith species... some people apparently thought differently. I mean, yes, the Sith being a dark sect, with certain secrets, yes, but the Sith being a species is still one of the weirdest concepts in the EU... not weird in that way a crying mountain is or a three-eyed son of the Emperor, more weird in the way of, why make it that complicated. First species, then religion(s), whatever. Personally, I first encountered the term "Sith" with the expansion "Mysteries of the Sith" from the game "Jedi Knight" around 1997. I was still mostly a child back then, and for some reason, my story-creating brain imagined the Sith as the progenitors of the Jedi who were evil... you know, Jedi developing out of the Sith as a force of good and freeing the universe from their oppression. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 11, 2024 7:54:09 GMT -5
What I find really funny is that, because of the wording "Dark Lord of the Sith," they made the Sith a species of which these individuals were the lords. They have to be lords of something, after all!! We have to take it literally. Talk about overthinking! Interesting. Back in the '80s, my nerdy friends and I all assumed that the Sith were some kind of extinct Dark Side religous order, I think. And that Darth Vader was the Dark Lord of that order...i.e. the head honcho. That's pretty much what I thought as well... like the opposite of the Jedi.. who were the good warrior space monks, and the Sith were the bad ones. Vader and Obi-Wan were just the last ones. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2024 11:32:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I always equated the Sith with an order like the Knights Templar or the Teutonic Knights, since they were described as a plural and as Knights, in the earlier drafts and that is what Lucas would refer to, in interviews, around the release of Star Wars. He would talk about backstory, based on those earlier drafts, like mentioning Vader and Ben battling over a lava pit. I first read that in the Star Wars Poster Magazine, in either late 1977 or 1978. In some materials, Vader's armor was described as being the attire of a Sith Knight, which had been part of the initial conceptualization. In some ways, it parallels the Lensman Saga, as the Lesnmen and the Galactic Patrol are opposed by the Boskone pirates, a race of beings who prey upon galactic shipping, with advanced ships and weapons. In the novel, The Galactic Patrol, the hero, Kim Kinnison, is a newly graduated Patrol member, who became one of the elite Lensmen. he is serving aboard a ship that is seeking to gather intel about the advanced Boskone ships. They purposely lure the Boskone into attacking them and they oblige, boarding the ship from the void of space, while clad in space armor, brandishing weapons to allow them to fight. The Patrol attempt to fight them off, in their space armor. During the battle, they are able to make a wire recording of the schematics of the ship and Kim and others eject in seperate lifeboats, to get the info back to Patrol headquarters, with Kim landing on a nearby planet and then making contact with another Lensman. In the earlier drafts of Star Wars, the Sith Knights attack Deak Starkiller's ship from the void of space, while clad in their space armor, and a battle ensues, with both sides wielding laser swords. The scene was the genesis of this image....  Note that both Deak and Prince Valorum carry laser pistols as well as their swords. Deak is wearing breathing gear, because the Sith cut their way into the ship, opening the hull to the void of space. Similar to the breathing gear you see on Han, Leia and Chewie, in Empire, in the asteroid. I first saw that image with either the soundtrack album (which my brother had) or with the Star Wars storybook or another related book or magazine (fairly sure it wasn't Starlog and I think it was on the album sleeve). I always interpreted it as Luke against Vader, in an earlier idea for a fight, relating to the attack on the Death Star. Those earlier plot elements weren't discussed in detail, other than things like Luke, at one point, was a girl, that there had been an idea of showing other wookies and some of the other early sketches for the stormtroopers, Han (with a beard) and the images of Artoo and Threepio, with the latter's design based on the robot Maria, in Metropolis. It was only later in JK Rinzler's The Making of Star Wars, that I saw that image, above, identified as Deak Starkiller, battling Prince Valorum. Funny aside; when I was in high school, but before Jedi came out (so, 1982-ish), I had a dream of walking down a wood panel hallway, leading from stairs with wooden railings and banisters, which then suddenly becomes a passageway like on the Tantive IV and everything is under water. The stormtroopers are fighting the Rebels, who are wearing scuba tanks and I end upp battling Darth Vader, while floating in the water-filled space. I always pegged that image as provoking that dream, since it looks like Deak is in scuba gear.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2024 12:07:35 GMT -5
Just as an aside, a very interesting, if somewhat dry read is Michael Kaminski's The Secret History of Star Wars....  It began as a website, chronicling the influences of Star Wars and changes in the story, based on interviews that Lucas and other people gave, at various times, things like The Star Wars Poster Magazine and the fan club magazines, like Bantha Tracks, the novelizations, the storybooks, the portfolio, the Annotated Screenplays (by Laurenz Bouzureau, with cooperation from Lucasfilm) and The Making of Star Wars, by JW Rinzler. It references a later interview with producer Gary Katz, discussing the trilogies as they had mapped them out, after Star Wars became a hit, the changes across script drafts, especially those with the original film and the major changes between the first and second draft of Empire, which altered the course of the story in significant ways (Vader being Luke's father). It catalogs when Lucas made conflicting statements later, how discarded plot ideas were used in the prequels, etc, etc. It covers the writing, filming and release of all of the films, up to the point of Lucas' involvement, as it was written and published before Disney purchased the company and launched the sequel series. At times, it can get rather dry and there is some interpretation and even editorializing (mostly in discussion of the prequels) and points out little details, like Lucas never discussing Joseph Campbell, until critics and other writers started referring to The Hero of a Thousand Faces. He may have actually read Campbell's work; but, he wasn't discussing it in interviews, at the start and only begins to do so, after it has entered the discussion elsewhere. Also worth reading (and referenced in the Kaminski book) is Skywalking, The Life and Films of George Lucas, by Dale Pollock. Lucas originally cooperated with Pollock and he was given unfiltered access to Lucasfilm archives and he documented a lot of the script changes, things like lists of names, etc; plus, he interviews all of Lucas' friends and colleagues and was writing when the divorce happened. It gives probably the most complete picture of Lucas, as a person, of any work and Lucas subsequently disavowed it, upon publication, most likely because he was uncomfortable with how deep it got into his personal life and personality. Most of his friends described him as cool and reserved, contrasting with Marcia, who was vibrant, intelligent and confident. The Rinzler Making of books are great for documenting the process of filming, from conception to release, with tons of photo reference for conceptual drawings, props, set photos, poster art, the story of filming on the sets, etc. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 11, 2024 20:43:15 GMT -5
Hmmm.. not sure if I'd be totally enthralled by a book like that or if its better left to the canon in my head. Very interesting stuff though!
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 11, 2024 23:58:48 GMT -5
He's writing the books though... I don't have them right in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it says he's writing Sith Doctrine no? IT says he's finished the 'Book of Anger' and I mean really, this is all just splitting hairs, but I enjoy doing so He was composing The Dark Side Compendium. He had two volumes completed, The Book of Anger and The Weakness of Inferiors, with a third, The Creation of Monsters, in unfinished manuscript form. Obviously, these got retconned into Sith writings later, but there's no mention of the Sith in the endnotes themselves. Palpatine's characterized as an independent dark side mage at this point in time. |
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